[Beta 4 Release] RO-Berezina

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=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
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In regards to the fps drops, I had noticed a few spots where mine dropped a bit. I don't remember where they were, just that they happened. The action was quite heavy, and I have a mental note to write them down the next time I am on the map.

No other anomolies were noticed by me the few times I have been on Beta 4.

Good idea to eliminate the possibility of the Germans rushing the rear tunnel entrance, if only because those Germans doing so were shooting the Russians as they spawn. It might have been a good idea for the Germans to flank the Russians' position that way, but since they were spawn killing, those particular German players (who spawn killed) have no reason to 'whine' that they no longer can do it.

Good job SLYK :)
 

slyder73

Active member
Aug 3, 2006
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My replies are inside your quote below:


Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?


I can understand eliminating the spawn killing in the tunnel behind the 2nd line, however that back approach still allows the possibility of the best teamwork there can be for a well coordinated team. Is it possible to restrict the no-go zone to that particular spawn room and the tunnel for short distance beyond it? If it is 15 seconds, that gives enough time for the Germans to rush THROUGH the spawn area but they won't be able to stop and camp inside to do the spawn killing.

Also regarding the "behind enemy lines" death after the cap point is changed. Yes, it still happens. THe other night, it happened to me and I saw it happen when the 2nd line was captured, (perhaps it was 1st Line, not sure), and at least 6 Russian players were instantly killed for being behind lines.

The behind enemy lines deaths I'm not so sure about when they restrict the range that the Germans are able to approach from. I think it is better for the flow of the map and teamwork for the Germans to be able to coordinate attacks and flank the enemy or even set up snipers far behind enemy lines. (yes outside spawn areas) On the Russian side, the ability for the Germans to come from different directions can work for them as well, if the Germans are not particularly team oriented that night or are not coordinating. They can become fragmented and this works for the Russian benefit.
As it is now, I've not seen the Russians win and my thought on that is because the Germans are forced to attack to rigidly on a straight frontal assault. If they work together even the slightest bit they destroy the Russians for reinforcements or just plan push them back without all that much work to keep the team working together. It is more like the map forces the play of the round, rather than the players use the map charactaristics and terrain in thier own way to achieve a win.
 

Slyk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2006
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Answers below:

I can understand eliminating the spawn killing in the tunnel behind the 2nd line, however that back approach still allows the possibility of the best teamwork there can be for a well coordinated team. Is it possible to restrict the no-go zone to that particular spawn room and the tunnel for short distance beyond it? If it is 15 seconds, that gives enough time for the Germans to rush THROUGH the spawn area but they won't be able to stop and camp inside to do the spawn killing.
Possible, yes. Will I, no. It is too difficult to sculpt all those zones etc. It is at it's basic, spawn camping.

Also regarding the "behind enemy lines" death after the cap point is changed. Yes, it still happens. THe other night, it happened to me and I saw it happen when the 2nd line was captured, (perhaps it was 1st Line, not sure), and at least 6 Russian players were instantly killed for being behind lines.
The timers are between 30 and 60 seconds. I have never seen the 'instant' death, maybe bad timing on my part. Generally I find that the players who die in this manner ignore the fact that they can't recap most objectives and continue to run in there.

The behind enemy lines deaths I'm not so sure about when they restrict the range that the Germans are able to approach from. I think it is better for the flow of the map and teamwork for the Germans to be able to coordinate attacks and flank the enemy or even set up snipers far behind enemy lines. (yes outside spawn areas) On the Russian side, the ability for the Germans to come from different directions can work for them as well, if the Germans are not particularly team oriented that night or are not coordinating. They can become fragmented and this works for the Russian benefit.
I agree with you on most points here, but fact is, there are a lot of on-line players with penis envy and they only know how to spawn camp and try to ruin the game for everyone. The map layout dictates a lot of the protecting that I had to do. Do I like it? No. Not at all, but read back through the beta 1, 2 and 3 threads and you will find that nearly everyone asked for the features. In the end, it is not my fault if the German or Russian team, for that matter, can't work together.

As it is now, I've not seen the Russians win and my thought on that is because the Germans are forced to attack to rigidly on a straight frontal assault. If they work together even the slightest bit they destroy the Russians for reinforcements or just plan push them back without all that much work to keep the team working together. It is more like the map forces the play of the round, rather than the players use the map charactaristics and terrain in thier own way to achieve a win.
I have seen the Russians win at least 30% of the time. It should not be easy. If I or history wanted it to be fair/even, I would have given the Russians equal reinforcements etc. You have to 'play' the map. It offers both teams pluses and minues, but in the end I think it is one of the most open-ended, dynamic custom maps out there. I don't make my maps to be easy on anyone, I try to make them force teamwork and to offer players options. I welcome the comments and will always try to work in what is practical, even to a small degree.
 

REZ

Grizzled Veteran
Nov 21, 2005
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The Elitist Prick Casino
I had the pleasure of playing Beta-4 this weekend, and I must say I like the direction its going. I did notice slight FPS drop, but it seemed to level out after a couple of minutes of playing.

Thanks for your response to the mortar question. I think if they were added to the 2nd line and/or East bank they would make for good additions in regards to atmosphere and extra defense capabilities.


I have one more request/feedback, and I hope this one doesnt come across as annoying, but..

Can you add the objective names into the map, so when someone is in - lets say the Farm - and they use a voice command like 'Hold This Position!' or 'We Need Help!' the name of the objective they are in will show in the parentheses... for example - (Farm) We Need Help! ...so this way everyone can see where the person who is making this announcement is located. If it's not a tremendous amount of work for you, I think this would polish up the map a bit and be worth it in the end.


Thanks for a great map so far Slyk! ...and I agree with Tochiri (it would be incredible with 64 players :) )
 

Britney Federline

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
1,174
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Remember, the Germans aren't really forced to go straight ahead. They just do because they are stupid. I was just a PTRD on the East Bank over the weekend, waiting at the left extreme flank, and kept watching as the germans rushed straight ahead from their spawn. If they were getting shot, they waited back a bit and sniped. Then ran straight again.

One tank tested the russian left, but only in order to find a new route to the bridge (!). If the germans had all gone to the russian left, they could've swarmed over our flank and won in about a minute.

I wonder if you made a map where the center of the defense was all minefield, how many attackers would die because they absolutely refuse to turn sideways more than a few feet. 30%? 70%?
 

Slyk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2006
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Rez:
I will double-check those location volumes. Some work for sure but I did notice that some seem not to at times, I assume I messed up the tags. I will make that a priority for the 'final'. Thanks for the reminder.

Brit:
HAHAHAH! How true. The minefields certainly would have a high attrition rate. I do have a theory on implementing such a thing but it is a big job along the lines I want to do it. The whole thing should be a case-study in human nature for any psych students/professionals out there. This reminds me of any old 'Simpsons' episode where Lisa conducts an experiment between a rat and Bart to see who learns faster. In one scene there is a cupcake with electrodes. The rat gets shocked once and learns to leave it alone...Bart on the other hand repeatedly grabs the cupcake and gets shocked. Over and over again..."OUCH"....."OUCH"....."OUCH".... and so on. GREAT comparison to FPS players and RO players in general who run off to recap lost objectives that can't be retaken etc.

This map offers plenty of options other than right up the middle. The flanks are seldom used but when they are, the defenders usually crumble if the attack gets support. It's a fact that too many gamers just don't want to think or work as a team.
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
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For the record, flanking maneuvers are fine, but if the Germans really use serious teamwork, they may not need it. By this, I mean if they truly use combined arms and the concept of covering fire.

Not many maps will present you with places where covering fire really counts, but this is one of them. What's needed, basically, is for the German team to move as (mostly) a whole unit. Know the role of the vehicles, and take advantage of them and you can probably steamroll a less coordinated Russian team.

I find that defenders may be good, but they're generally a loosely organized lot. What's more, without adequate and SMART tank support, the infantry on defense can be cut down like wheat before a thresher.

Here's what I think would help the Germans win when going up the center. First, have your Lieutenant or tank commander drop artillery on the enemy's dug-in tanks, especially the KV-1S. Then, take your Pz IVF1s and have them provide anti-infantry support (which was their role during the war). Have one gunner and possible a driver who swiches between driving and hull gun. The MGs suppress the enemy, the HE shells tear 'em to bits.

The Pz IIIs are tasked with poviding anti-tank support (again, as was their role generally). they can still do some anti-infantry work, though, with their machineguns. They should be loaded with AP or APCR, though.

What BOTH are doing, however, is providing cover FOR THE APCS, which should be fully loaded with infantry, preferably assault troopers. I'd leave a rifleman in the MG position, too. The APC, under covering fire from the PzIV and PzIII, advances to OUTSIDE the wire, where it unloads its troops. It then continues to provide close fire support for the troops as they go over the wall, and generally try to discourage enemy infantry. The assault troops then storm the position and try to cut down the enemy in the trenches with their SMGs.

If the team really works together, I think it'd probably succeed. The Russians are going to be mostly riflemen with a few SMGers and some AT troops. Keep the AT troopers buttoned up long enough to advance the APC, and your assault troops should make short work of the riflemen in the trenches. With support from the Pz IVs, a trench position shouldn't last too long if you work well together.

Then all you have to worry about is an equally coordinated Russian defense. :D
 

Rameusb5

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 23, 2006
871
1
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Nice to see some progress on this map. It's going to be sooooo great when it's done.

As for the whole "flanking" arguement: I have a problem with players trying to argue that they SHOULD be allowed to get in the Russian spawn back there. There are only 16 defenders and they can't possibly be expected to leave a player or two behind their lines just IN CASE some smartypants decides to "sneak" into the backfield and then come in the back door. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure the back door is necessary at all.

If the map allowed for hundreds of players, then I'd be all for allowing flanking maneuvers. But with 16 vs 16, we need to funnel people into the combat. Otherwise, we might as well just be playing "ninjas online."


Personally, I find it a bit annoying how players will go out of their way to NOT use teamwork. If you can manage to knock out the Russian tanks at the same time, perhaps with artillery on one while concentrating your tanks on the other, then EVERY infantryman who's not a sniper or MGer can pile in a couple of halftracks and rush the lines. The Russians really don't stand a chance to defend against this tactic, and yet people NEVER seem to want to team up on this map. It's annoying. And now we have people who WANT to be encouraged to "sneak" around behind the Russian lines and have some fun instead of doing what they are SUPPOSED to be doing and take the farking objectives.

It's too bad the officer classes can't shoot players for being idiots... :)
 

Boogerhead

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 16, 2006
509
2
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To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure the back door is necessary at all.

I think it's a great thing for the Russians.

I was playing B4 the other day as a German, and some Russians were trying to make good use of the back door. I was over near the right trenches (Russian left) of the 2nd line, and a few were trying to sneak out toward the village, set up some AT rifles. Others were trying to go south a bit and then flank my tank.

I kept watching so I got 'em all, but most of the time I would've been too distracted simply covering the second line. Good strategy, and good option for the Russians, I think.
 

Moz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,773
1
0
This is the only level I've ever played in RO that has given me an average of 2 fps. (stat fps)

On BDJ at the same settings I get 35fps!

:confused:
 

Solo4114

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 12, 2006
1,608
38
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The back door at the 2nd line is crucial to allow the russians to fall back under cover. When the Germans storm the trenches, you can duck into the bunker complex and escape out the back to get to the village or simply fall back to the East Bank.
 

Von Chuffy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 1, 2006
17
0
0
32
Bristol, UK
Berezina is possibly one of my favorite maps in the entire game, up there with Orel and Black Day July.

Nothing better than laying an amubush with a DP as your team retreats to the East Bank, the German infantry dont expect to get MG'd in the side!