Berserker/Melee Ability Balance

[Rocker Fox]

Just following up - all those perks that trigger off missing health are USELESS. You're either a hair's breadth away from death for what really does not seem to be a very impactful boost (from the damage one) - or a medic has healed you. They need to be replaced with something not reliant on missing health - cause that mechanic flat-out won't work.

Honestly i still feel like it would be a big improvement if they switched a lot of those limited health traits out for parry traits. Lower level ones could be reduction in bleed though damage for block/parry and faster parry/block speed. Higher level traits could be something like gaining back 15HP on a successful parry or return damage for parry.

Longer stun for parry or parry/block bleed though reduction could even be leveled passives(say 10% more stun time per 5 levels starting at 10%/3% less bleed though for block and parry damage per level). That way zerker keeps a high skill cap, has more melee focused traits and has far better surviveability for even just using the block function on top of getting a self heal or reliable damage dealing through skillful parrying.

 

[Severeaids]

Just following up - all those perks that trigger off missing health are USELESS. You're either a hair's breadth away from death for what really does not seem to be a very impactful boost (from the damage one) - or a medic has healed you. They need to be replaced with something not reliant on missing health - cause that mechanic flat-out won't work.

Completely agree. If medic is going to keep the same perk skills whether they get nerfed or not then they are clearly a better berserker. If they really insist on this low health passive stuff then combine them all into one skill and adjust the health requirement or something and give the other slots parry bonuses or health leech anything.

So far in my experiences playing suicidal and hoe the emp grenades and skill where you cant get grabbed are the only things the zerk really has going for it. I was testing hoe without take cover and whenever I had to run away id get yanked around then surrounded and killed or id get grabbed then a husk siren or bloat gets in free hits.

 

[M34T-B4G_441]

Honestly i still feel like it would be a big improvement if they switched a lot of those limited health traits out for parry traits. Lower level ones could be reduction in bleed though damage for block/parry and faster parry/block speed. Higher level traits could be something like gaining back 15HP on a successful parry or return damage for parry.

Longer stun for parry or parry/block bleed though reduction could even be leveled passives(say 10% more stun time per 5 levels starting at 10%/3% less bleed though for block and parry damage per level). That way zerker keeps a high skill cap, has more melee focused traits and has far better surviveability for even just using the block function on top of getting a self heal or reliable damage dealing through skillful parrying.

Honestly, I think a lot of his issues could be fixed by giving him scaling damage resistance and a bit of bonus health.

Well, at least he has the Pulverizer, which is totally boss.

 

[BEEEEEES]

Zerker just desperately needs insane damage perks on one side, and insane tanking perks on the other side. Personally I'd rather kill stuff 'fore it kills me, but it would be a nice alternative perk-loadout to choose all defensive ones and be more tanky, or mix n match a bit per player's individual preference.

The current < 11 perks simply don't do enough at all. I did notice that the 'zerker' perk for extra damage for each 15% hp lost doesn't give any feedback that it's activating. That damage bonus - if it's even working - is not at all noticeable on suicidal or hell on earth difficulties.

 

[Kvasir94]

I honestly feel like you guys just don't know how to play the class. Zerk's tanking ability now comes through taking action instead of doing nothing and running away. Not only does a parry cause a stumble on Zeds regardless of cooldown but it mitigates 90% of the damage when using the Pulverizer. Stack that 90% with your 5% resist and the perk that makes enemies do 15% less damage after hitting them a single time and tell me he's not tanky.

Also, everyone that complains about the perks that trigger on lower HP just doesn't seem to understand them yet. I know that losing health should never be a "goal" but take a look at this post I just made. http://www.reddit.com/r/killingfloor/comments/33sngy/before_you_go_bashing_zerk_and_the_useless/

Furious Defender very well could be one of the Scrake stopping perks in the game and Flesh Pounds to an extent as well.

Please, TWI, don't go patching and balancing all of this stuff when people haven't even started to understand how much they can change the game yet.

 

[jestdoit]

Honestly, I think a lot of his issues could be fixed by giving him scaling damage resistance and a bit of bonus health.

Well, at least he has the Pulverizer, which is totally boss.

Medics have the Pulverizer too


The zerk's measly 25% damage bonus isn't enough to make him a desirable pick when the number of swings it takes to kill is what really matters. Melee weapons aren't like guns where you're always shooting, consistently applying damage even while kiting. With guns 25% extra damage directly translates into 25% faster killing speed.

Zerk's 25% bonus melee damage lets you kill a fleshpound in 4 pulverizer alts instead of 5, but your overall killing speed hits rock bottom.
Unlike guns, melee combat is much more involved, where you have to execute zed-specific tactics consistently. Against the biggies you're dodging, parrying, healing and anticipating the next reaction between every swing. You die from the slightest mistake, while having 5x the downtime the lucky times you survive and manage to kite everything sprinting at you long enough to apply several slow-recharge 20hp heals. Even if medics are around, you're being a drain on the team since they have to watch over you like a mother and her newborn.

On Suicidal+, surviving/consistent contribution >>>>>> novelty damage bonus.


Medics should just be renamed to something cooler (Paladin? Juggernaut?), then less melee players would waste team slots playing berserkers, who ramp up the difficulty while being a burden on harder difficulties.
Just think of the medic as a fearless 40k terminator with a thunder hammer, wading into hordes and relentlessly going toe-to-toe against the toughest foes. It has all the essentials zerks long for, and plays like a frontline melee class should.

 

[Severeaids]

The fact that a medic can pick up a pulverizer and use it just as good hell even better as a berserker is where they need to look at some things. I'm cool with buying off perk weapons and all but man the berserker melee bonus just doesn't feel enough. If I'm not mistaken they nerfed the melee damage that berserkers get when they nerfed the pulverizer right?

 

[jestdoit]

Right, the damage bonus went from KF1's 100%, to 50%, to 25% just before early access started. The pulverizer was also nerfed on top of the lost damage bonus.

Tripwire mentioned something about balancing weapons from looking at collected weapon stats, but it makes me wonder if they're getting a realistic, complete picture.

In reality, how are zerks performing vs other classes on normal difficulty? What about Suicidal and HoE? How much damage do they take, how often do they die vs tough zeds/bosses, etc.

 

[weeman2412]

I honestly feel like you guys just don't know how to play the class. Zerk's tanking ability now comes through taking action instead of doing nothing and running away. Not only does a parry cause a stumble on Zeds regardless of cooldown but it mitigates 90% of the damage when using the Pulverizer. Stack that 90% with your 5% resist and the perk that makes enemies do 15% less damage after hitting them a single time and tell me he's not tanky.

Also, everyone that complains about the perks that trigger on lower HP just doesn't seem to understand them yet. I know that losing health should never be a "goal" but take a look at this post I just made. http://www.reddit.com/r/killingfloor/comments/33sngy/before_you_go_bashing_zerk_and_the_useless/

Furious Defender very well could be one of the Scrake stopping perks in the game and Flesh Pounds to an extent as well.

Please, TWI, don't go patching and balancing all of this stuff when people haven't even started to understand how much they can change the game yet.

Try parrying on HoE when husks are barraging your team with fireballs, and sirens and screaming to burst your ear drums, while scrakes are slowly closing in, while Fleshpounds are charging up for a rage, tell me how well that works out for you on the front line.

Fact is, in any situation, every other perk can out play the berserker. He's just too weak defensively, far too high risk to play, and damage out put is just not enough.

 

[Savage Rodent]

Honestly, the berserker is hard to use. You're almost required to parry (especially scrakes) and then get a hit in. I typically just go full out hammering on flesh pounds and it seems to workout, but scrakes are something else.

As for Hans, I find that it's extremely difficult to get out of his range or line of sight after hitting him, which makes me think maybe berserker should get more of a movement speed increase. This could also make helping teammates and gaining exp easier since I believe the radius is very small.

There is a skill that increases movement speed (when you go below 20% hp I believe), but that to me just seems pretty useless most of the time, especially against Hans. I'll be lucky to even be below 20hp if I screw up a parry or something.

Also something I just now started thinking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you move slower when you have low hp right? So with that berserker skill, does it negate that low hp slow down and increase your movement speed or does it take the low hp slow down and then give you your increased movement speed?

 

[Zerginfestor]

Honestly, the berserker is hard to use. You're almost required to parry (especially scrakes) and then get a hit in. I typically just go full out hammering on flesh pounds and it seems to workout, but scrakes are something else.

As for Hans, I find that it's extremely difficult to get out of his range or line of sight after hitting him, which makes me think maybe berserker should get more of a movement speed increase. This could also make helping teammates and gaining exp easier since I believe the radius is very small.

There is a skill that increases movement speed (when you go below 20% hp I believe), but that to me just seems pretty useless most of the time, especially against Hans. I'll be lucky to even be below 20hp if I screw up a parry or something.

Also something I just now started thinking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you move slower when you have low hp right? So with that berserker skill, does it negate that low hp slow down and increase your movement speed or does it take the low hp slow down and then give you your increased movement speed?

Yes, you're totally right about the scrakes. As a berserker, I've seen others who just "Block" through their 'ballet of death', only to see them on the floor, sawed to death. Scrakes are probably the biggest anti-berserker zed right now and if it's not their 'holycrapwtf' damage, it's their incredibly-hard-to-parry three strike wombo combo. Seriously, sometimes I parry and it SHOWS a successful parry (little flash of light on my weapon's handle, and a TINK! sound), but the scrake just says "NOPE" and continues twirling as if nothing happened. It's baffling and frustrating anytime I face these damn things.

Fleshpounds are also annoying, because they got that lovely "HULK SMASH" move that negates your parry-stun no matter what. Even if you somehow do a successful parry and take the small damage, but he'll still do his second smash right after that, making it impossible to parry him and taking the 2nd damage. HOWEVER, I don't mind this because the damage from it isn't really enough to make me scream in my mic "OH GOD, MEDIC! MEEEEDIC!", It's the scrakes that do.

For Hans, just stay on him, circle him, and wail on his buns. That's all I can say.

Yes, the movement speed skill is completely useless to the point I laughed my *** off when I read the skill. I felt like someone at Tripwire was completely trolling with an idea like that.

P.S. the Fleshpound also apparently has a move that says "SOD OFF" to Berserkers, basically their Front Kick attack. It shoves anyone back, does damage, and I believe it breaks through a parry attempt, which is kind of hilarious.

 

[doomleika]

P.S. the Fleshpound also apparently has a move that says "SOD OFF" to Berserkers, basically their Front Kick attack. It shoves anyone back, does damage, and I believe it breaks through a parry attempt, which is kind of hilarious.

Nope, you can still parry that.

 

[Furious Imbecile]

i wish i could just be a berserker, instead i find myself being a handy man hiding behind a nail gun..currently a lvl 10 handyman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXiwYUCe_bY

Someone do a berzerker parody for this.

 

[Zerginfestor]

Nope, you can still parry that.

You can? That's great to know. It's been annoying to try to parry it out of instinct only to get slammed back. Damn you, parrying system!

 

[pbo]

Simple answer:

Because the berserker would go alone through the entire map in KF1 being OP. With 5% damage resistance, you can't go alone this time, but you still have that 25% to Sirens & Bloats to be in front. Now the berserker is actually PART of the team, requires a medic to support him, and he is crucial for engaging Scrakes and Fleshpounds IN the team. So, that's a very good design. Apart from that you can't compare zerker of KF1 to KF2 they are very different games. KF2 is way too faster, thus more combat heavier and they did a really great and thoughtful job balancing it out. (Medic darts for example)

 

[doomleika]

You can? That's great to know. It's been annoying to try to parry it out of instinct only to get slammed back. Damn you, parrying system!

The key to parry is not overreact and keep cool. The game's hit detection is a bit wacky. The damage only register after a brief moment animation connecting to you.

Try practice with cheatenabled, it's actually pretty easy once you get a hang of it.

Simple answer:

Because the berserker would go alone through the entire map in KF1 being OP. With 5% damage resistance, you can't go alone this time, but you still have that 25% to Sirens & Bloats to be in front. Now the berserker is actually PART of the team, requires a medic to support him, and he is crucial for engaging Scrakes and Fleshpounds IN the team. So, that's a very good design. Apart from that you can't compare zerker of KF1 to KF2 they are very different games. KF2 is way too faster, thus more combat heavier and they did a really great and thoughtful job balancing it out. (Medic darts for example)

I would rather berserker not being part of my team. If it's a melee zerker, he goes to front, mess up zeds pathing and make kill them more difficult. If there's a surge of big mob spawn, chances are he will be surrounded and killed in second. If it's nail zerker, Medic can do just as well with a hammer when the time needs it.

bottom line, the current zerker sucks, they need to buff it.

 

[Zerginfestor]

Simple answer:

Because the berserker would go alone through the entire map in KF1 being OP. With 5% damage resistance, you can't go alone this time, but you still have that 25% to Sirens & Bloats to be in front. Now the berserker is actually PART of the team, requires a medic to support him, and he is crucial for engaging Scrakes and Fleshpounds IN the team. So, that's a very good design. Apart from that you can't compare zerker of KF1 to KF2 they are very different games. KF2 is way too faster, thus more combat heavier and they did a really great and thoughtful job balancing it out. (Medic darts for example)

lolwut. He's/She's not really part of the team if he's/she's DYING too quickly from the lack of good defense, that's the main issue here. Even with a medic on his/her buns, a pissed off scrake is going to make SHORT WORK on a Zerker, ESPECIALLY if they tried to parry and the game decides "Nope". No, a Zerker is NOT essential in fighting FPs and Scrakes, unless you want a waste of slot space to stand there and face-tank for 3 seconds before turning into mince meat. Like someone said before "Anyone can parry and do a better job than a Zerk", which is the entire POINT of the Zerk: to parry and get in there, but the design choices prevent the zerker from doing so, so then we see this crap happening:

-Scrake comes in.
-Zerk alt hits with hammer, runs away.
-Rest of team has to deal with a pissed off scrake after Zerk hammers a couple more times and runs off.

Think this has to do with the fact Support/Commando/Medic are FAR tankier than a Zerk (which should be the opposite). 150 HP? 120 HP/175 AP? Ye-no. Zerk needs serious rebalancing to be the game-changer you think it is.

 

[doomleika]

-Scrake comes in.
-Zerk alt hits with hammer, runs away.
-Rest of team has to deal with a pissed off scrake after Zerk hammers a couple more times and runs off.

Think this has to do with the fact Support/Commando/Medic are FAR tankier than a Zerk (which should be the opposite). 150 HP? 120 HP/175 AP? Ye-no. Zerk needs serious rebalancing to be the game-changer you think it is.

Another note, the hammer swing is damn slow. Compared to raging scrake/fp, the optimal parry pattern is parry, hammer, parry, parry, hammer, parry, parry....

The time you actually have to hammer are so slow you won't get the third off before they are dead. (If they aren't, your team sucks and you are all dead) Might as well just cut the fund and use Crovel and parry only instead, cheaper and lighter weight.

 

[Zerginfestor]

Another note, the hammer swing is damn slow. Compared to raging scrake/fp, the optimal parry pattern is parry, hammer, parry, parry, hammer, parry, parry....

The time you actually have to hammer are so slow you won't get the third off before they are dead. (If they aren't, your team sucks and you are all dead) Might as well just cut the fund and use Crovel and parry only instead, cheaper and lighter weight.

Basically. I know that anytime I make a successful Hammer swing right on a raging scrake that I parried, it's RIGHT BACK to dealing with the Wombo Combo, which for someone's supposed to be a tank, I've never been so jumpy and twitchy in my gaming life in KF2. It's either another parry and hit, or I'm sliced meat and people just going "oh wow, Zerg died."

 

[ZetaBladeX13]

Simple answer:

Because the berserker would go alone through the entire map in KF1 being OP. With 5% damage resistance, you can't go alone this time, but you still have that 25% to Sirens & Bloats to be in front.

Play on Suicidal or HoE. A max level berserker won't survive 2 hits.

Bloat bile can easily deal over 30~40 DoT after the +25%, and you want to wade in the front with sirens, husks, and sprinting bloats hitting you with AoE attacks while trying to deal with trash mobs?

good luck

you'll hit the ground in seconds even with a medic healing you.