[Game] Battlefield 3
- Thread starter Ralfst3r
- Start date
Moddb? If you're talking about financial impact then that was my point.
You're basing you're argument on all the customers being PC fans who tend to be more progressive, technical, and loyal. But consoles are the focus now and besides some map maker modes, modding is basically nonexistant there which is where DLC comes in.
The sad truth is they will probably make more money with a game if it is multiplatform with DLC than if it were PC exclusive and loyally supported. They could make the PC the superior/better supported version but then console players will be just as pissed as we are now.
And for some stats, approx. one year after release for each game (source wikipedia):
BF2: 2.25 million units sold
BC2: 6 million units sold
Please never do this. Despite this being a ripoff which you shouldn't participate in, the mod scene would most likely never be anything substantial because you'd have a fractured community.
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Indeed, i was talking financial, and to my knowledge, nobody's collecting any data about what kind of buisness mods create (well, a few gaming companies, such as TWI, do keep up with their own game's modding scenes, but there's nothing global, there's no industry wide body that does it to my knowledge), and thus, it remains an unknown.
That said however, it would be unwise to assume it creates no buisness, just because nobody has bothered collecting/publishing data. It's pretty obvious that it does, we just can't put a number on it.
Also, it's not really practical to compare old titles to new ones, like BF2 and BC2, for the simple reason that there exists a lot more gamers out there now, gaming has gone from a nieche nerd thing, to something allmost everyone does in the last few years, the market has exploded, and thus, raw sales figures are not going to tell you the full story, even bad games sell more copies today, just because the market is much bigger.
Likewise, the data that is collected and published about sales figures is incomplete, and so very biased.
Most of them only cover the US market (a Console heavy market, unlike Europa, Asia and Russia where the PC is still standing strong, we don't see thouse numbers), and only retail sales, IE sales from brick-and-mortar shops like Gamestop, they do not cover all the online vendors like Amazon and digital distribution outlets like Steam, which are far more popular with the PC market (you'll barely even find any PC games at a place like Gamestop).
We can thank the NPD and similar for that one, their hopelessly outdated practices have been quite instrumental in demonizing the PC, and for no good reason.
No mod tools, what a ****ing joke.
Guess I'll just have to settle for RO:2 and TES:V as my only two purchased "new games" this year, who's developers actually care about the modding community. Keep up the good work chaps :IS2:
Guess I'll just have to settle for RO:2 and TES:V as my only two purchased "new games" this year, who's developers actually care about the modding community. Keep up the good work chaps :IS2:
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If we really consider the situation Activision, EA and Ubisoft makes hell of a lot more money than E.G. TWI, Frictional Games, CD Projekt and GSC does combined. TWI still insists on being PC only while keeping the horizon open if possible, despite having "poor" financial gain compared to major publishers. Frictional Games' devs said in one blog that even though it didn't look too good, Amnesia's success made them say that they have no reason to consider consoles as platform for the moment as PC is financially capable and stable. They even mentioned that majority of their sales were with some sort of discount, like pre-order bonus, weekend deal etc. CD Projekt also remains PC pureblood (hurr) with The Witcher series even though they planned console version at some point, and probably will in future. BIS could be also brought up, as ArmA certainly makes the question why bother since it's relatively niche? Or Paradox Interactive's own games ala Hearts of Iron 3 or Victoria 2? I have no idea about Vicky 2, but HoI3 certainly was gigantic bugomania 2009 to the point it was pretty much obvious alpha during release, yet according to Paradox it was one of their most succesful products by the time they released the 1st expansion.
It'd be worth mentioning that most companies mentioned here have pretty poor DLC policy as well for the sake of gain: HoI3 has sprite and music packs (optional and costs like what, 1-2$ each?), Killing Floor has identical cheap-*** skinpacks, The Witcher had DLC pack to update the original game to Enhanced Edition with other content which was basically free and you don't need to own BIS DLC to play with someone who owns them, you just have low res & sound, no access to them in editor and no campaign\mission content just to name a few.
I'm perfectly aware those three mentioned early on are publishers but even if we consider some developers under their wings it'd be quite identical, and if we purely look at financial gain and how much gross value their products can generate being independent or doing something unique is pretty stupid and should probably be even discouraged yet for some reason some stubborn mules still keep doing it.
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what they do to survive and make profit is none of my business, except when it affects the quality level of their product and services, of which i am paying good money for.
the funny thing is, although many people stress the business side of game development, they never treat it as such from the standpoint of consumers.
the apologist trend these days make video game developers out to be bums who barely scrape by on the income we provide them. until this idiotic assumptions is wiped clean, you will always have people who purchase out of sympathy or a misguided sense of loyalty rather than rational evaluation of a product worth and quality
the funny thing is, although many people stress the business side of game development, they never treat it as such from the standpoint of consumers.
the apologist trend these days make video game developers out to be bums who barely scrape by on the income we provide them. until this idiotic assumptions is wiped clean, you will always have people who purchase out of sympathy or a misguided sense of loyalty rather than rational evaluation of a product worth and quality
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Yknow amerikaner if they were to release mod tools for console games on PC's, there would be people making mods.
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Not to pick on you in particular amerikaner, but has there been one console game that allowed modding? I'm asking just out of curiousity.
In some ways I'd like to see what TWI will do for their first console product, because I feel they would probably try a lot harder then anyone else to bring modding to that platform..
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Not to pick on you in particular amerikaner, but has there been one console game that allowed modding? I'm asking just out of curiousity.
In some ways I'd like to see what TWI will do for their first console product, because I feel they would probably try a lot harder then anyone else to bring modding to that platform..
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hockeywarrior
FNG / Fresh Meat
Unreal Tournament 3 was probably the last major multiplatform title that fully supported modding. Heck they even made it so that people could port mods from the PC to the PS3.
That game, though, was Epic's last attempt at a quasi-PC game. It was clear that it started out as a PC game, then at some point late in development they realized they had to go multiplatform. The game then received a terrible interface and lots of unnecessary console features along with all of its PC-ness. A very strange scenario.
In the end what they got was a title that didn't make console or PC players happy in one way or another.
No mod tools because they said it would be very complicated to make even basic mod tools and only delay the game further, thus in their view they think its a waste of time.
Am I the only one who isn't like BF3 IS SO AWESOME looking?!
I mean, the last and first great game they produced was 1942, everything else is a joke, what does BF3 bring to the table? Scripted MW2/CoD:BO storyline compaign with no replayability value? Do this mission, shoot them move, shoot.... It just seems very disappointing. This is why I like TWI & Relic, they make innovations, they change things and make games not a product.
Look at CoH, brand spanking new ideas done excellent, who else can say that in the RTS genre?
Then look at RO, indie-like game that stuck to its guns and look at what its sequel is coming to, a very promising game (so far).
Funny how prone keeps being mentioned. Yes, prone is good to have in an FPS but have you guys forgotten that snipers are a HUGE problem in BFC2? Well, add prone and there will be even more OP sniper douches camping in a bush on a hill round after round. Adding prone is nice but it also means they need to come up with a GOOD solution to the sniper problem. Class restrictions. Something BF has needed since BF1942. But I doubt that will happen.
BF1942 had huge spawn / plane camping problems, which BFBC2 fixed (BC2 is a much better game than BF2 IMO). Now that BF3 will have jets, it remains to be seen if the spawncamping problem won't come back. If BF3 still has these problems, I probably won't buy it.
That said, the 'Modding is declining' comment is rediculous. Hmmm, maybe modding is declining because less and less mainstream games have an SKD these days, eh? Bunch of greedy ****ers, even willing to sacrifice mod support for more profit. Thankfully we have TWI.
Speaking of TWI, RPS should do an interview with them, focussing on modding in general. So many PC gamers are disappointed in the current state of modding, so get the word out that TWI is the saviour of modding and PC gaming! Mention it in the comments below articles about this subject!
BF1942 had huge spawn / plane camping problems, which BFBC2 fixed (BC2 is a much better game than BF2 IMO). Now that BF3 will have jets, it remains to be seen if the spawncamping problem won't come back. If BF3 still has these problems, I probably won't buy it.
That said, the 'Modding is declining' comment is rediculous. Hmmm, maybe modding is declining because less and less mainstream games have an SKD these days, eh? Bunch of greedy ****ers, even willing to sacrifice mod support for more profit. Thankfully we have TWI.
Speaking of TWI, RPS should do an interview with them, focussing on modding in general. So many PC gamers are disappointed in the current state of modding, so get the word out that TWI is the saviour of modding and PC gaming! Mention it in the comments below articles about this subject!
hockeywarrior
FNG / Fresh Meat
I totally disagree on the prone thing. Snipers are a huge issue in BC2 regardless of prone implementation. What's more annoying in that game is that I can't freaking hide from them (or anyone else) shooting at me because there is NO PRONE. This is also an extremely noticeable omission from games like Crysis 2 and Far Cry 2 -- two fairly open world shooters where not being able to go prone severely limits the player's survivability and sense of control of their character.Funny how prone keeps being mentioned. Yes, prone is good to have in an FPS but have you guys forgotten that snipers are a HUGE problem in BFC2? Well, add prone and there will be even more OP sniper douches camping in a bush on a hill round after round. Adding prone is nice but it also means they need to come up with a GOOD solution to the sniper problem. Class restrictions. Something BF has needed since BF1942. But I doubt that will happen.
BF1942 had huge spawn / plane camping problems, which BFBC2 fixed (BC2 is a much better game than BF2 IMO). Now that BF3 will have jets, it remains to be seen if the spawncamping problem won't come back. If BF3 still has these problems, I probably won't buy it.
That said, the 'Modding is declining' comment is rediculous. Hmmm, maybe modding is declining because less and less mainstream games have an SKD these days, eh? Bunch of greedy ****ers, even willing to sacrifice mod support for more profit. Thankfully we have TWI.
Speaking of TWI, RPS should do an interview with them, focussing on modding in general. So many PC gamers are disappointed in the current state of modding, so get the word out that TWI is the saviour of modding and PC gaming! Mention it in the comments below articles about this subject!
The lack of prone in BC2 is just one more reason why, if someone starts shooting at you while you're in cover and crouched, you have to move, because 9/10 they will see the very top of your helmet over the cover and you're dead. And since half of cover is destructible, it's a matter of aiming your gun at stomach height and hosing down cover. You'll find someone pretty quickly.
When you take away most of people's options for not getting shot, they tend to stop worrying about getting shot, and your game turns into a zerg fest of shotguns, lightweight, body armor and getting shot in the ****ing back.
It may still be preferable to throwing grenades for 5 minutes from your belly....but it basically ruins what little remains of the illusion that we're fighting in a war and we DON'T want to get shot. You're either shooting people with impunity as a sniper or a tank in BC2, or you're rushing in to kill as many people as you can before you get flanked and/or picked off through a dime sized hole in cover. I want to see the game play in BF3 be more methodical in general...and giving people more ways to fight from cover without having to move will achieve that. I liked the slower pace of BF2 fights, and after awhile I just become numb to the same scenario of "spawn at point. Kill enemy rushing at you. Get shot from the flank."
When you take away most of people's options for not getting shot, they tend to stop worrying about getting shot, and your game turns into a zerg fest of shotguns, lightweight, body armor and getting shot in the ****ing back.
It may still be preferable to throwing grenades for 5 minutes from your belly....but it basically ruins what little remains of the illusion that we're fighting in a war and we DON'T want to get shot. You're either shooting people with impunity as a sniper or a tank in BC2, or you're rushing in to kill as many people as you can before you get flanked and/or picked off through a dime sized hole in cover. I want to see the game play in BF3 be more methodical in general...and giving people more ways to fight from cover without having to move will achieve that. I liked the slower pace of BF2 fights, and after awhile I just become numb to the same scenario of "spawn at point. Kill enemy rushing at you. Get shot from the flank."
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My point, regardless of the merit of the actual content (I agree it severely lacks substance), is that instead of the actual article, the focus was on someone's fake translation. It's like a mob waiting for any new evidence to pounce on and support their views without thinking or going to the source. But again, I reiterate, that interview truly did suck.
You essentially want to change the game though. Alot of people, myself included, love the gameplay of BC2. You need to be alert constantly almost like a deathmatch game but its still got enough gameplay mechanics to make it feel like a battle. The way it keeps the intensity level up pretty much the entire time is really impressive. It's an action game in a war setting not a war simulation. I love slower paces of games like RO and ARMA too but remember its not like Battlefield started off slow and tactical and lost its way. There's a place for everything. What there shouldn't be a place for is bull**** DLC and no mod tools.
UT3 on the PS3 is actually the only Console title i can remeber having real modding, other than that, there's only stuff like Little Big Planet which has a builder mode, but that's not really modding per se.
However, UT3 handled it poorly for 2 reasons:
1) Sony would not allow full modding support. For instance, you could not use any new sounds in a PS3 mod, because some proprietary Sony thing got in the way of that, and they woulden't let us play with it.
2) No SDK was provided for the PS3 version, they should have put it on a PC-DVD so people could install the SDK on a PC and start making mods. Instead, it was dumped in the lap of the PC community to make mods for the PS3 community, or atleast, people would have to buy both versions of the game to make mods for the PS3.
Naturally, that didn't go down well with the PC community, who allready felt they had been given a "Consolized" game, and now, felt they where beeing used as free labour to support the Console version aswell (and that perception did not improve when Epic employee's started bad-mouthing the PC in the press a short while later).
And ofcourse, Microsoft is dead set against any modding for Xbox games, so the 360 version can not be modded, and no Xbox game ever will unless they have a change of heart (or people find an exploit that makes it possible, which has actually happened before, but it's not an intended feature, people had to find exploits to do it).
Modding absolutely could be done for Consoles, but neither MS nor Sony have any desire to make it happen (MS is more against it than Sony is, but make no mistake, Sony fears that people will be able to crack their precious Console if they are allowed even a modicum of creative freedom to use their expensive hardware as they want).
Thease are cloused platforms, and their creators want them to remain cloused, and that's the real problem right there.
hockeywarrior
FNG / Fresh Meat
Well when I said "fully supported modding" I meant for the PC, not consoles. It was a nice bonus that some content was able to be ported to the PS3.
So Epic's UT3 and probably the Fallout games are the last multiplatform titles to full support modding on the PC by releasing comprehensive SDKs. I'm assuming when we were talking about console games that fully supported modding, we meant multi platform titles. There ARE no console games that fully support modding!
The BF franchise is definitely more on the side of war simulator than deathmatch action arena. BC2, maybe not. But I'm pretty damn sick of barely having anything resembling a front line and people always, always, always getting behind you. You say it's intense, I say it's mostly people running around like chickens with their heads cut off, exactly like UT, which I never found intense so much as spastic. You sound like you're almost appreciative of the shoe box maps.
BF2 may have gone a little overboard on people being entrenched, but BC2 went the opposite direction. And it's never failed to be fun, but it's never left a lasting impression on me once I'm done playing. It's the equivalent of fast food action.
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Far Cry 2 had a level editor for all 3 platforms. But that game just wasn't anything special. And I never bothered with it but I imagine it was a very simple and limited editor.