Balancing the zerker. My suggestions...

[nutterbutter]

I've gone over why I think the zerker is overpowered. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47088

I've also mentioned why I think the game needs an OP perk. Without a "get out of jail card", many games would end in later waves. While the zerker has lower DPS output, he has much higher survivability and that is really all that matters. That's why kiting and the 10 minute solo wave exist for the zerker. The problem is the zerker is so OP with no real disadvantages. I think it is possible for the zerker to keep his uniqueness without being omnipotent in the game. So I'm going to go over what needs to be changed, why it needs to be changed, and how it needs to be changed.



Speed

The zerker is the fastest perk in the game. I have no problem with this. He should be the fastest.



Quickness

The zerker has the fasest punch in the game. Again, I have no problem with this. He should. But there should be a counterbalances for both the heightened speed and quickness.



Cheap Weapons

The zerker can buy his top tiered weapon the very next trader wave.

Limit the zerker to a single melee weapon and an additional #2 pistol (HC, MK23, or .44). That's it. This does a few things. First, it provides a reason for the zerker's speed. Second, it prevents the zerker from the incredibly OP practice of having tons of surplus cash that he doesn't have a need for and being able to mix and match any other perk's best weapon because with the zerker's speed and base damage of the unperked weapon, the weapon is good enough. Third, this also limits the zerker from carrying two nuclear weapons in the axe and the katana. He must pick one. This also means the zerker can not pick up any other perk's #3 or #4 weapon on the deck.



No Ammo Cost

The zerker's top weapons don't require any ammo and never wear out

While I think a gas tank should be on the chainsaw and a random break chance should be on melee weapons, I think limiting the zerker to a single melee weapon and pistol is a better option.



No Reloading

This is a huge advantage. The zerker never, ever, ever, ever, has to pause firing his top-tiered, highest damage perked weapons.

Balance it by getting rid of the autofire for bladed weapons. The zerker can now fire his highest damage perked weapon continually throughout the game without ever having to stop for any reason. This is incredibly over-powered. The zerker should have to click the mouse button to swing a melee weapon. This will help balance out the fact that the zerker's top tiered, highest damage weapons never need to reloaded. The autofire for melee weapons is just silly as well.



Armor

The zerker can buy armor like every other perk but he also has permanent armor in the form of "always on & never expires" damage resistance.

I recommend we give the zerker a reason for his speed. He can no longer buy armor.



Insta-clot™ grab

In my opinion, the unbreakable insta-clot™ grab for every other perk is a game breaker. Absolute game breaker. Insta-clot™ grab, for every other perk, raises the clot from an annoyance to one of the most dangerous specimens in the game. Either bring back the jumping break for other perks or allow zerkers to be grabbed as well. Sure, zerkers don't have to reload so they still have that advantage, but at least make it somewhat even.



I like the zerker and the zerker is fun to play. But he is incredibly OP and I think bringing him back in line with the other perks, with specific benefits and penalties, would make a better game.


Comments?

 

[Amber Glass]

i agree that berserker is massively OP, but i think you are nerfing him to the point where he wouldn't be played. limiting him to carrying nothing but a single melee weapon and his 9mm is a bit much, at least leave him the ability to carry a lever action along with a melee. i think a more reasonable nerf would limit his ridiculous damage resistance to 20% and nerf his speed to the same as medic. this way it wouldn't affect the berserkers playstyle so much, while also ensuring that those who play sloppy wouldn't be able to get away with it.

 

[nutterbutter]

limiting him to carrying nothing but a single melee weapon and his 9mm is a bit much, at least leave him the ability to carry a lever action along with a melee.

Sorry. I edited my post to clarify things a bit. I meant a melee weapon and an additional #2 weapon like the HC, .44, or MK23. That way the zerker would have some distance punch but not as much as a rifle. Thanks for the feedback.

To me, a better alternative would be to reduce the berserker's carrying capacity to 10 blocks. That means the berserker can carry a katana and axe (and be dedicated to melee attacks), a machete and crossbow (a "support"-zerk of sorts) or a claymore and MK23/magnum for some versatility.

That's what I was thinking, but the 10 blocks still leave a lot of room for non-zerker weapons. My idea of the zerker is a fast & light fighter. Slinging an xbow or rifle on his back would severely slow him down.

Yes, obviously this lets a berserker carry a katana and LAR, but that leaves the berserker unable to easily handle scrakes (fleshpounds also take more hits to kill).

That is EXACTLY my thinking. Make the zerker have to choose between the axe or katana.

I think the autofire is just there for convenience. All removing it would do is cause annoyance and wear/tear on the left mouse button.

I think it was added for that as well, but unless a player has an automatic weapon on auto, he has to click the button to fire as well. The biggest problem I have is that the zerker can fire from the moment the char is spawned until the Patty drops. No stopping, no reloading, all full perked damage. That is clearly OP.

This would never fly with anyone but a super hardcore player, if even that much. A case can be made for reducing the berserker's armor's effectiveness - the berserker's speed could stem from his lighter and therefore less effective armor. But to remove it completely seems a bit much for me.

Well, the thing is the zerker always has armor. That 40% resistance to damage is armor and that armor never wears off. Also he has 80% bile resistance that never wears out either. Zerker is always well armored.

If given a choice, which do you think a player would choose? 100% armor that wears out which has a very small chance of being replaced during the wave or a 40% damage resistance (& 80% bile resistance) that never wears out? I'd take the 40% every time.

Berserkers often run through hordes of clots, and sometimes, getting slowed down for a even two seconds results in dying.

I agree and that's why I think it is a game breaker. I've been playing a ton of new maps on a clantec server lately and if I get cornered either by kiting with a ton of stuff behind me or in a room and there is 4 clots and a bloat in front, I'm screwed if I miss that first headshot over the clots to the bloat. Because if I miss that shot, the clots have me and the bloat spews. Even if I make that shot, I have the then HS every one of the cloats and still dodge the trying to grab me or even just their blocking bodies. If I have to reload at any point while shotting those clots, I'm dead as well. Zerker just runs right through them. Scrake and clot in front of a player, in anything other than an open map, and for every other perk, the clot is more dangerous. The insta-clot

 

[scary ghost]

I'm personally fine with +40% resistance if it is only applied to melee damage. Firebug is resistant to fire, demo to explosives yet zerker magically gets resistance to everything. Restrict it to melee only and he can still tank a fp, but husks and sirens can hurt him just like every other non resistant perk.

 

[ElSneakyPete]

Lot's of really good ideas here. The one's I particularly like:

- lower carrying capacity to 10 (i like forumUser's example loadouts that that allows)
- limiting damage resistance to only apply to melee damage

The reload issue is a fair point, although removing auto-fire could be pretty annoying. Here's a somewhat crazy idea: upkeep for melee weapons. The two examples that pop in my head are:

- A "field repair kit" (or something like a whetstone). This would work in conjunction with the "durability" idea of a weapon. Every hit takes down the weapon's durability (similar to ammo for a gun), which can be repaired at the trader. If durability hits 0, weapon is unusable until repaired. A field repair kit could be used to bump up some of the durability during the wave.
- Melee weapons get blood/bile/guts on them as they kill enemies. The gunk has a stackable slowing effect on the swing speed of the weapon. The nastier the weapon, the slower you swing it. Pressing the reload key would allow you to wipe the blade off or something and remove the slow down.

I realize both of those ideas are a little cheesy, but they would functionally provide a reload mechanism for melee weapons.

 

[Althamus]

The zerker dropping down to 10 weight sounds a good idea, even though I would mourn current-zerker's carrying capacity and flexibility.

Also, I wouldn't mind if we took L5 zerker and made him L6, and then spread out the upgrades accordingly (so L3 zerker would be a cross between L2 and l3 zerker currently).

Also, we're complaining that zerker doesn't have to reload... melee fatigue? You can swing your melee weapon 5 times in a rolling 5 second period without speed penalty, but the more you swing past that, you swing slower and slower until if you hold M1 permanently, you'll swing at unperked melee speed (or slower). Fine for most of the time if you're being clever, or enough for a brief (OSHI) moment, but you can't just hold W and M1 and go to sleep.

+1 for zerker keeping ability to buy kevlar. Why would the melee class go worst equipped?

Melee weapons shouldn't have a random break chance. I could go with a "wearing out" thing, which basically means you 'refill the ammo' every trader time and forget about it.
Having your katana break when you're halfway through a cloud of clots would not be fun.

 

[vealck]

Right now, due to M99 berserker is the least of my worries about game balance, but once I had this idea about zerk nerfing once: stamina. Yeah, I know what you think, it was already suggested and all, but there's a little twist to that, so please continue reading.

Let's say that zerker gets stamina meter, which is drained when performing attacks (of course swinging a machete is a lot less exhausting than axe, power attacks are more draining than regular ones, and so on).

What happens when the meter hits 0? Berserker loses his damage and attack speed bonuses. So, without stamina his attacks are equal to unperked melee. And when once drained, the damage bonuses doesn't come back unless stamina bar it's at least half full.

Stamina regenerates of course. Very slowly when you run around and with moderate speed when you're standing still.

Stamina lasts for not that many attacks. Let's say that full stamina bar allows for five alt attacks with an axe. So, when approaching a scrake on 6-man HoE, you need full stamina and zero mistakes.

This all adds more strategy to kiting (you need to make some stops), encourages team game (you won't be able to dispose of a scrake safely if you have chop other trash left and right), makes fragwhoring more difficult, and forces to deal with sudden surprises when that clot just doesn't go down on katana body chop, because you're fresh out of energy.

___

Apart from this, I kinda like the idea of reducing zerk's carry weight. But I think that it shouldn't be arbitrary (only one melee weapon and sidearm), but let's just say by reducing carry weight to 8 blocks (that includes 1-perma block). So, possible loadouts include:

axe and mk23/magnum
katana and HC(which should be buffed to one-kill crawlers on HoE)
claymore and machete
LAR and machete

And so on.

 

[dewzy1991]

I always thought it would be a good idea if the damage resistance only applied to damage taken from the front while damage taken from the back had no resistance.

 

[Gman_95]

yeah i agree Chain saw should RAn out of GAS lol!he should pay for gas and re-feul it costy feul and for that maybe a lil more damage its chain saw do!like if it does 75 it should do 77.and he ain't faster than medic!medic is like the Olympic runner!while i can't agree that a katana Weights like 10 KG (what katana weights 4 kg?mine is only 1500 g)but yes chain saw should weight 10 or 12 kg...ahh i disagree with no Armor that's too much his damage resistance is high thou i think they should balence it with his armor.and i think the grab should be there he is way too carefree with clots!but i liked the idea of reducing his carry weight!that sounded good!these are good ideas sounds a bit like dead Island but its still ok!(i donnow about the speed meter or stamina Meter it would change his game play)you see it's something like L4D 2 that you knock back 3 or 4 times but ater that your knock back needs time to reload!

 

[Aze]

Alright, I'll give my thoughts and feedback on this:

Overall, lots of these ideas helps with one thing:
Making the Berserker even MORE prone to kite, and less useful as a "tank" for the team. Sure, kiting can be great to help divert enemies from the team etc, but being helpful as a tank AS WELL would be nice. So try to keep ideas that are the best for BOTH playstyles.

* Restricting weapon useage I'm completely against. Like Ghostofthefallen said, one of the reasons this game is so awesome is the plethora of weaponry and the ability to pick whatever weapon you want, just because. Not only do i think it would hardly balance the perk either way, but it would most definitely reduce a lot of fun, at least for me.

* Reducing max carry weight is something I'm not all too eager upon either, but is way more acceptable than the weapon restrictions though (still doesn't mean that i like the idea >_>). Perhaps increase some of the melee weights instead? (Katana 4, Claymore 7?)

* Anti-clot-grab could be changed a little at least. I generally like the idea of a charging Berserker to be able to wedge your way through the clot grabbaholics, but even so, think about it from a bit more realistic scenario: Wouldn't arms trying to grab you while you are running (even if you are huge and/or strong) at least SLOW YOU DOWN, even just a little bit? So, how about: On suicidal and hoe you are still immune to the immobilizing grab-effect, but the grip at least slows you down somehow?

* No armor available i think is, frankly, a stupid idea. Without armor the Berserker might even be less survivable than other teammates who carry armor. Especially for lower Berserker levels.

* Removing full-auto melee (with the exception of Chainsaw primary ofc) I'm a little torn about. One side of me think it's a great idea to make you more "active" in your fighting, while the other side of me thinks it would be SO annoying to have to click every single attack. Having full-auto attacks, but adding stamina would also work, but that also makes the Berserker MORE prone to kite around (harder to be a "defensive wall", still as easy to "hit and run"). Do we want that? I wouldn't mind the melee stamina though (if it was added as a restriction for ALL perks ofc, maybe improved for the Berserker to make Medics less useful as "Zerdic tanks"?)
Personally i like the idea of the "bloodier weapons make you swing slower - press reload to wipe them off"-idea. A little weird perhaps, but also quite interesting imo and wouldn't take away the "wall" ability (but still gives you a reason to calm down and pause a little), while not hurting kiting all too much either.
Either option also gives the Chainsaw some indirect increase in viability (even if it got fuel as a counter-restriction), due to the being the most efficient "continous attacker" (as i think it shouldn't be restricted by the stamina or the blood... however illogical that last part sounds >_>).

* Speed / Resistance. I disagreed on keeping the Zerker so fast. I'd actually go the other way around to what you guys suggest: Slow the Berserker down a bit, and make it MORE durable! ESPECIALLY against melees (that's a great idea guys!). Here's what i would do:
30% bonus movement speed is just way over the top imo. 15%, maybe absolute max 20% would be enough. It reduces some of the overpoweredness in kiting, while still making you able to move around quicker in the frontlines. The high speed is also what makes it easier to abuse the FP and Patriarch mechanics.
Keep the general resistance (but lower to 25/30% though), and then instead of Bloat bile resistance (Medic can have dibs on that bonus), give some ADDITIONAL melee resistance, like 30/35% more or so (Stacking multiplicatively?). That way, you are tankier for the sake of the team, but MOSTLY against the ones you have to fight up close against, where the Berserker is supposed to shine and be useful.
As dewzy1991 suggested: Having only the resistance only applied to damage taken from the front while damage taken from the back had no resistance (in this case, i would suggest only the melee resistance, as that could be thought of a "parry"-like bonus) would be a great way to stop runaway / kiting Zerkers from ... well, just running away or kiting all the time. Being a frontline wall would then keep you more able to resist melee damage. So in short: 25/30% general resistance (always active) and a 30/35% melee resistance (only counts from frontal attacks) sounds PERFECT to me
The Berserker can still kite decently well, ranged specimen are a bit more lethal, melee enemies attacking your back (while kiting for example) are more dangerous, and the perk would also be better damage-sponge if you wanna play as a "camping frontline tank".

Thoughts on all that?

 

[poosh]

I suggest to keep Berserker's speed bonus at 30%, but apply speed penalty when using non-melee weapons. For example, when zerker is holding LAR or Syringe he should move 15% slower than other perks. Great in melee fights, suck in everything else. Imo fair enough.

 

[Benjamin]

This is probably better over in the modding section, since TWI have balanced the game numerous times and at this late stage I can't see them doing it again (especially when people will just complain again that something isn't balanced right).

I agree with the reduced carry capacity, that'd make sense for a class that can move faster. Although in that case I'd change "melee running speed" to "running speed".

 

[pointless [BYTE ME]]

Lots of replies and i didn't read them all, im mainly pointing my reaction at the OP:

I am a true zerker, blood & bones and if i can decide; "Hell on Earth" only. I am loving the perk and use it as soon as there is no team play needed or people ask for zerks. i do agree that the zerk is OP in KF but a few points you came up with wont do it for me...

- Speed
Can't touch the zerker's speed imo for as long as a zerker carries a melee weapon. I would nerv the perks bonus speed or remove it when it is using a none melee weapon though.

- Quickness
Keep this, it's vital and logic for a melee only perk + every perk has to have something that other perks dont have...

- Cheap Weapons & - No Ammo Cost (combining those 2 for now)
* I think it would'nt hurt the zerk if he has to rebuy every blade weapon that he bought at a previous trader.
* Making the katana/axe wear off and in the end completely useless is too much imo, it would litterly kill me if suddenly while fighting an Fleshpounder my weapon would break :/
* For me the price of weapons is a laugh. My best bet is to NOT change the weight or price of the katana but double the weight and price of the axe as you really only need it later on in the game (wave5+) meaning you can save for it like you have to save for the aa12 as a support.

Having to rebuy every blade weapon at the trader + more costs and more weight for the axe would be making the zerk perk at least less opp without hurting what makes the perk so much fun.


- No Reloading
Don't remove this or edit any of it. It's one of the things that makes this perk so great to play with. I love the fact that you can solo a whole game and win it with this perk.

Also, the auto fire is only handy for clots when im really honest. I time my shots on gorefasts, bloats and for sirens, scrakes & FP's i use ALT attack meaning im barely using the autofire after wave 5, removing it will only annoy me when im getting closed in by lots of clots and stalkers.

- Armor
Most rounds i dont even buy armor. Making it impossible won't be a good thing to make this perk less OP. Reducing the resistance of 40% does. i would go with 25% against melee weapons, remove other extra perk damage resistance bonus to start with. I do agree 40% is too much. Keep the possibility of having armor as zerk without any speed difference. Other perks dont receive that penalty either, do they?
A zerker/kiter only needs armor for the FP that he is fighting with and might do a double attack (both arms) as without armor that would kill the zerker instantly. having the extra perk damage resistance lowered to 25% would mean i NEED armor now to even survive the other attacks of the FP.

- Insta-clot

 

[Gartley]

I think as balance suggestions go I think this is one of the best for the berzerker I've ever read. I'd like to see this in effect just to get more feedback.

 

[Althamus]

Clot Grab:
A berserker is lighter and more agile than other classes, and better able to dodge around clots, but they will slow him down.
When hit by a clot, other classes are immobolised for X seconds. When a berserker is hit by a clot, he immediately loses all his berserker-based speed bonuses for the same X seconds. He can still get through a crowd, and one clot doesn't stop him dead, but it is no longer a primary tactic for him to run through a crowd.

Charge:
The problem with a zerker's speed is that we need to reduce his speed so he's not so good at running away from zeds, but increase his speed so that when he's fighting with a group of allies, they don't kill everything before he can get there.
Solution: Charge ability. Drop the zerker's speed down a chunk, but give him a regenerating ability where he can charge at a zed and maybe gets a damage bonus within the first second or so of his charge. He can run towards zeds as easily as he could before, but can't run away forever.

 

[Blockbot]

TAHAHAHAHAH....

the reason berserker is op is cuz he can run. and he can run and run and run and run from everything that is possible ever hurt him. if ur going to nerf him.

just increase the speed of the zeds. the zeds are pretty weak anyways when the m99 annd **** has come around anyways

 

[Benjamin]

TAHAHAHAHAH....

the reason berserker is op is cuz he can run. and he can run and run and run and run from everything that is possible ever hurt him. if ur going to nerf him.

just increase the speed of the zeds. the zeds are pretty weak anyways when the m99 annd **** has come around anyways

Oh sure, go break the balance for all the other perks to try to fix the balance for one perk.

 

[poosh]

TAHAHAHAHAH....

the reason berserker is op is cuz he can run. and he can run and run and run and run from everything that is possible ever hurt him. if ur going to nerf him.

just increase the speed of the zeds. the zeds are pretty weak anyways when the m99 and **** has come around anyways

Berserker should run and run fast. It's his main feature. The problem is he can run away. Away from zeds... practically always. And the reason for that is lack of range-attacking zeds in a game. In games with Brute or Doom3 monsters, where each 2nd has a ranged attack, Berserker mostly sucks ***.

 

[Dafe]

1. Lower holding weight

2. Clots should be able to grab beserkers

3. Make weapons more expensive


Everything else should stay the same, unless Tripwire wants to add dual-wield for the meat cleaver.

 

[Arblarg]

Berserker should run and run fast. It's his main feature. The problem is he can run away. Away from zeds... practically always.

Why two conflicting statements (or at least thats what it seems like you're implying)? You are correct, his feature is running, not gunning. He should be able to outrun things. About the only things he can't outrun are a raging scrake and fleshpound. On most maps, besides mountainpass, a zerk cannot avoid the annoyance of husks. It doesn't take much for a husk (or more than one, especially on HoE) to take out a lone zerk.

And the reason for that is lack of range-attacking zeds in a game. In games with Brute or Doom3 monsters, where each 2nd has a ranged attack, Berserker mostly sucks ***.

As mentioned, the husk does its job pretty well on mid-range, open maps.

Really though. Guys. Gais. Srsly guys, guys. Srsly. You're expecting TWI to
1) Change (nerf) the zerk after all the time he has been like this
2) Work in a 'durability' for melee weapons
3) Actually make working chainsaw fuel (who even uses the chainsaw besides for fun?)

Do you even remember what developer you're dealing with? This isn't valve and this isn't TF2.

I really can't get why anybody thinks that kiting is 'overpowered'. Its another tactic of playing KF. Typically its only utilized by last survivors and teams of zerks.

All in all, this thread is horrendous and full of people who can't stand to watch a zerk finish a wave because they died during it. Zerk is fine the way it is. You may think its 'overpowered', but that is only because a skilled player is using it.