Balance issues (AK, M16, M14)

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Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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Just to make my issue with the AK sights clear, here is a picture:

ak_sights.png


Poor picture, but good enough for presentation. On the left - how it is. On the right - what would make me happy.
 

Jagdwyre

Active member
Sep 2, 2011
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Perun58;n2294979 said:
Both the Type56 and the AKM are stamped in the game. Why should be one more accurate than the other? Also 0.5 MOA seems like a lot bigger difference than the stamped receiver should make.
A thicker stamped receiver means the gun will flex when fired slightly less. It doesn't guarantee a more accurate rifle but more rigidity lends itself to better accuracy.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Oct 21, 2010
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Perun58;n2294984 said:
Subjective. I can't stand them. The fact that the elevation pin is bigger than the actual sights is incredibly frustrating. I was strongly sceptical about the M16 sights but they are very, very precise and not that hard to use.

Well its something I can back up with ingame performance, not just once, but consistently. The AKs sights are just that much easier to use.

Sorry, but this is an actual value, not a matter of opinion - the AK has lower damage than any rifle in the game and the only primaries with lower or same damage are MAT a PPSh while the M16 has massive damage. 60% of my hits with the M16 are lethal but only about 1/3 of hits with the AK are lethal if my ingame stats are to be trusted.

We just saw the stats, the AK apparently does more dmg pr. round than the M16.

In terms of ingame experience however I didnt notice any difference between the two when hitting people in the same spots.

Btw you gotta remember to always do any comparison on a low ping server, cause on high ping servers there are some serious hit reg issues. You ping should be 70 or lower ON the server, otherwise issues start to arise in my experience.

Penetration yes. But as I said the M16 will penetrate the wall anyway.

Thats not my experience at all. The AK reliaby punches through obstacles ingame, the M16 does not.


Higher magazine capacity is barely useful if bullets do no damage and the gun has apparently bent barrel.

Again the damage is either the same or apparently slightly in the AK's favor. Only thing I can see change this is is if the 5.56's superior wounding ability (fragmentation) within 150m is simulated.

How is higher RoF disadvantage? The M16 has ideal rate of fire and is perfectly controlable in full auto... unlike some other guns.

Ammo expenditure vs mag capacity. It's rather simple. Both weapons are stupid easy to control in full auto, if you cant control the AK full auto I really dont know what to tell you.

Most relevant attributes of the gun are in my opinion accuracy, damage and recoil.

​​​​​​All which is secondary to proper sights.

Everything else is secondary and the M16 is not only better than the AK in these, it's astronomically better.

"Exaggeration promotes understanding" seems to be your motto, because thats definitely not true.

That said the M16 HAS both a lighter recoil and is more accurate than the AK in real life, thus if this wasn't the case ingame then something would definitely be off.

But there's much more to a usable and effective ingame (and real life) firearm than being the best in just these 3 disciplines. Easy to use sights are paramount and above all else, and a more usable RoF coupled with a subtantially larger mag capacity is of high importance as well.


I think you meant 100m, because on 150m it's not about carrying out headshots but about hitting guy "somewhere".

No I meant 150, and Ive also done headshots with the AKM at this range plenty of times, it's just no longer a sure thing at this range - but tbh neither is it with the M16, its just more consistent at long shots, which also should be the case.

On shooting range perfectly aimed AK won't constantly hit target on 200m and that's uncovered target in standing position ( I will need to do the video on that so there won't be no doubt that it's the gun, not the player is can't hit thing) . Shooting people who actually hide behind things and are not standing on more than 100m is a nightmare in the game. I am highly sceptical that it's 5 MOA, it's more like 15... we can't really talk about headshots...

The devs confirmed 4.5 to 5 MOA AFAIK.

I think the only reason you say that is because M16 sights are around the target while the AK sights are mostly under it.

Which is what matters.

What I am talking about is that if you count pixels on the screen covered by sights the AK would probably take more.

I highly doubt it, but even so it's completely irrelevant as that isn't what determines how effective the sight picture is. The MG42 in RO2 is a perfect example of this, takes up lots of pixels on screen, but the sight still provides excellent FoV because vast amount is kept under the target and the actual point of aim is mostly obstruction free.


I need to set my sights on the AK on 200-300m so I won't cover up my target while using it.

Odd, I never do this, I wouldn't see the point. But that might explain why you seem to miss with the AK all time...

With the M16 I have at least some space around the target when I aim on it. I am not arguing that the M16 has good sights. I am just claiming that the AK doesn't.

I can't undetstand this at all as the AKs sights are as easy and natural to use for me as any other V notch sight ingame.
 
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Perun58

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 22, 2011
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Unus Offa said:
Well its something I can back up with ingame performance, not just once, but consistently. The AKs sights are just that much easier to use.

I can do the same. I am getting far better results with the M16.

Unus Offa said:
We just saw the stats, the AK apparently does more dmg pr. round than the M16.

And for what distance this damage stat is? Damage is as far as I know dynamic in the game - depending on distance. The M16 is far more lethal on most distances.

Unus Offa said:
Only thing I can see change this is is if the 5.56's superior wounding ability (fragmentation) within 150m is simulated.

That as far as I know already is simulated.

Unus Offa said:
Both weapons are stupid easy to control in full auto, if you cant control the AK full auto I really dont know what to tell you.

Can you make me a video where you are able to control Type 56 on more than 50m? Because I am shooting in bursts with the M16 on 100m, that is impossible with the Type56. AKM is controlable enough to be used in cities on full auto. Type56 full auto is useless on every distance above 25m.

Unus Offa said:
No I meant 150, and Ive also done headshots with the AKM at this range plenty of times, it's just no longer a sure thing at this range - but tbh neither is it with the M16, its just more consistent at long shots, which also should be the case.

I will just make a video when the game is released demonstrating poor accuracy of the AK in the game. It's not reliably hitting human sized target on 200m.


Unus Offa said:
Odd, I never do this, I wouldn't see the point. But that might explain why you seem to miss with the AK all time...

That's actually how I started to hit people a little bit.

Unus Offa said:
I can't undetstand this at all as the AKs sights are as easy and natural to use for me as any other V notch sight ingame.

I demonstrated on the picture, what's my problem with the AK sights. The SKS is alright, so is the PPSh.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Oct 21, 2010
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To me the AK47 is perfectly well simulated apart from a rather excessive inaccuracy. Dropped 0.5 to 1 MOA so it lands at 4 to 3.5 MOA for all three types would be good.

Either way I love using it ingame where racking up kills with it is very easy. Same with the SKS, I dont find its sights to be any better or worse than the AKs. The AK is by far my best weapon ingame however - and yes I can easily record a video demonstrating this once the game is out, but hopefully the M16 & M14's peep sights have seen an improvement by then.

The M16, M14, M3 and MAT are the only weapons ingame I find downright annoying to use because of the horribly rendered sights.

Shotguns are an absolute hoot btw
 
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Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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So here it is.
Accuracy of the AK on 200m vs M16 on 300m (because on 200m you can be 100% sure, that you're going to hit)



Results:
AK: 9 shots, 5 hits (55,5%)
M16: 8 shots, 8 hits (100%)

Note, that I was shooting a lot faster with the M16

This is not in my opinion 4,5 moa. With 4,5 moa I would except nearly constant hits (assuming the target is man-sized)
 
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Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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He should be able to see it this time. The mistake was on my side. Also to make this crystal clear - I don't want TWI to change recoil or significantly change damage. The only change for the AK I want is accuracy - the rest is in my opinion realistic.

I could somehow live with 4,5 moa accuracy (although it should be a little bit better in my opinion) but I don't think this is 4,5 moa accuracy. It's more like 8...
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Just did the test myself, hit with 7 out of 8 shots.

Also I should note that my K/D ratio with the AK47 is 2.8 atm, with the M16 it's 1.5.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Btw, keep in mind that if the M16's accuracy ingame is 1.5 MOA, then it is also over twice as accurate. Thus you'd have to go out pretty far before it would fare the same hit percentage wise.
 

Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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If you think I aimed inaccurately at any point, tell me the time in the video, we may take the screenshot and look at it but I am deeply convinced that it's demonstrated well that I aimed accurately on the target and the AK had very poor performance.
 
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Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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OK I went even further here it is:
shots.png





A picture of sights before each miss. I don't know what more evidence I need to come up with. Properly aimed rifle like this with usable accuracy should not miss on this distance. Used rifle was Type56 with sights set on 200m. If you think that my 9 shot group is not representative enough I can create a 30 shot video, or 60 shot video...

Unus Offa said:
Btw, keep in mind that if the M16's accuracy ingame is 1.5 MOA, then it is also over twice as accurate. Thus you'd have to go out pretty far before it would fare the same hit percentage wise.

I know, but max target distance on shooting range is 300m. Besides on distance where M16 would start loosing accuracy I would not be able to even see the target.
 
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Perun58

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Sep 22, 2011
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Also your KD ratio doesn't reflect accuracy of the gun but overall performance. I have better KD on the M16 on the other hand. But I don't want to discuss overall performance of the gun but accuracy, because that's really the only thing I want to see changed.

I really can't understand how I can be the only one who sees the AK's poor accuracy in the game...
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Oct 21, 2010
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You're not the only one, as I said I noticed it too, however it just doesn't affect its performance. Despite the lackluster accuracy it's still the best gun ingame, and getting hits with it really isn't that hard. Just 20 min ago I was using the AKM to shoot 3 GI's from 175 m on the Hill map, used maybe 5 rounds.

PS: One of your pictures is definitely off, I noticed one miss where you aimed slightly left of the target upon the shot, not much but enough that a 22.8cm spread (4.5 MOA at 200m) could cause a miss.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Alright dumped an entire 30 round mag into the 200m target with the AK47 Type 56-1, had 4 misses. Tried again, 5 misses. Again, 4 misses.

As for the M16, as expected at 1.5 MOA it hit everytime, also at 300m, all 18 rounds, as it should.

Now that being said I do agree that the accuracy of the AK seems to be worse than 4.5 MOA ingame atm, because some of the misses went oddly wide. But again, I'm also an advocate for changing it to 3.5 or 4 MOA as that's honestly my experience with RL AK's.
 

Gladius

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Oct 4, 2011
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I don't think that single fire with the AK is the issue here. This is accurate enough. What bothers me more is the sometimes absurd inaccuracy with bursts, at extreme close range. When I'm rested, without sprint penalties and an enemy moves from left to right, below 5 meters, then it shouldn't be a problem to land more than one hit, with the front sights on the target. That just doesn't feel right. And when the M16 on the other hand gets sniper grade accuracy, the balance is just off.
 
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