Balance issues (AK, M16, M14)

[Srinidhalaya]

It would be a cool easter egg, to have a .05% chance to spawn with a full auto version of the m14. Make the recoil absurd, but would still be a great gimmick.

 

[lafittejean]

Huh so if advocated for properly we could maybe see the M14a1 in game possibly then?

 

[Perun58]

I think there are currently many more interesting and historically accurate weapons that can be added instead

 

[LiamFVJ]

Don't use that Chinese knock off, use the akm, much better.

 

[Perun58]

I am using both. Accuracy is not any better nor is the damage. (and it should not)

 

[Jagdwyre]

Don't use that Chinese knock off, use the akm, much better.

Not really. Chinese AK's were just as good as Russian AK's were despite what purists want to believe. In game the AKM only has slightly less recoil than the Type 56 and is even a little less effective at longer ranges than the Type 56.

 

[Spillo2382]

Well, i think the open iron-sight of the AKM is way better, and feel much better, even if is not.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Not really. Chinese AK's were just as good as Russian AK's were despite what purists want to believe. In game the AKM only has slightly less recoil than the Type 56 and is even a little less effective at longer ranges than the Type 56.

Which is abit odd tbh, they both feature the same barrel length, so why should the Type 56 feature a higher MV and why should it be more accurate?

That having been said, and getting back to the OP, the AK47 dominates the game as far as I can tell, so if there's a balance issue it's in the AK's favor.

 

[SeptemberSnow]

Well with the NVA and to a larger extent the Vietcong the training theh recieved probably wouldn't have been as extensive. Due to them being in the middle of a war. So reloading in a precise manner probably wasn't a thing covered.

there are numbers of reason we reload AK by right hand only . one of them is easier to do it with right hand than left hand
most of soviet friendly nation are poor . pistol for everyone = impossible . only officer have it
we carry extra ammo mag inside gasmask bag on the right belly > we reload AK with right hand

 

[Jagdwyre]

Which is abit odd tbh, they both feature the same barrel length, so why should the Type 56 feature a higher MV and why should it be more accurate?

That having been said, and getting back to the OP, the AK47 dominates the game as far as I can tell, so if there's a balance issue it's in the AK's favor.

You might be able to get away with the AKM having lower muzzle climb because of the slant break and the Type 56 having slightly better accuracy because of a thicker stamped receiver(though this would make more sense if the Type 56 was a milled variant) giving it a little more rigidity. But that's about it, I have no clue why they decided to apparently give the AKM lower muzzle velocity, that should be identical between the two rifles if they're using the same ammunition(which we can all assume they are).

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

You might be able to get away with the AKM having lower muzzle climb because of the slant break and the Type 56 having slightly better accuracy because of a thicker stamped receiver(though this would make more sense if the Type 56 was a milled variant) giving it a little more rigidity. But that's about it, I have no clue why they decided to apparently give the AKM lower muzzle velocity, that should be identical between the two rifles if they're using the same ammunition(which we can all assume they are).

Exactly, I have no clue where the lower MV comes from.

As for the AKMs lower recoil, thats real alright and there are 2 reasons for it:
1. slanted muzzle brake
2. more inline stock

A third & fourth reason only applicable in full auto would be the lower RoF due to a new trigger assembly.
​​​​​
But the AKMs lower MV and accuracy I can't find justification for.

 

[Gladius]

I snooped around in the gamefiles of the open beta built, to get some light on these questions.

Special thanks to SimpleCat, who did the google spreadsheet for KF2, for giving me directions.


Take this all with caution, I might have overlooked something in the code.

But as far as I can tell for now, the M16 and the AK47 variants have the exact same spread modifiers.

ShoulderedSpreadMod=3.0

HippedSpreadMod=5.0

The difference comes from the behaviour when fired on full auto, respectively bursts.



Also some stats from the bullet data:


AKMBullet

MaxSpeed=35750.0

Damage=462.0





Type56Bullet

MaxSpeed=36750.0

Damage=489.0




Type56_1Bullet

class Type56_1Bullet extends Type56Bullet




M16A1Bullet

MaxSpeed=49500.0

Damage=396.0




M14Bullet

MaxSpeed=42500.0

Damage=800.0

 

[Beskar Mando]

I snooped around in the gamefiles of the open beta built, to get some light on these questions.

Special thanks to SimpleCat, who did the google spreadsheet for KF2, for giving me directions.


Take this all with caution, I might have overlooked something in the code.

But as far as I can tell for now, the M16 and the AK47 variants have the exact same spread modifiers.

Yeah, You did, wrong place (if you're assuming in terms of overall spread), that's the modifier for the spread when shouldered or when fired from the hip, different thing. Fairly sure the majority of weapons have similar if not the same spread modifiers in comparison to their counterparts, ie an assault rifle will have different modifiers versus an LMG but will have a very close if not the same modifier to another assault rifle. But they don't have the same spread, M16 has 3x less spread than the AK's.

M16A1:
Spread(0)=0.00042 // ~1.5 MOA

AK47:
Spread(0)=0.00125 // ~4.5 MOA

Type 56:
Spread(0)=0.00125 // ~4.5 MOA

AKM:
Spread(0)=0.00138 // ~5 MOA

To get back on topic, I don't know what Unus Offa, Unus Nex logic is, but the AK47 is only better at longer ranges, statistically speaking. The M16 is better in basically every way. The fact that it does less damage doesn't really change anything, it is still an assault rifle.
According to a comment above the Spread for the AKM: // Slightly less accurate - thin stamped receiver is the reason why. It's also only .5 MOA difference, which is only an 11% increase.

 

[AATTV]

On those raw accuracy figures, it's complete bull ****!

How did they arrive at 1.5 MOA for an average grouping, from an average representative M16a1 rifle? ...and that In essence when shot from a machine rest, it will be at worst 3x more accurate than the typical AK platform?
....Remembering this is only relating to the raw mechanical accuracy potential of the rifle, before anything such as ergonomic factors have their compounding influence too.

That said, so far i've not had any issues using either of the assault rifles in game & hitting targets at range or up close, but is this a case where they have fudged some figures to achieve what feels right, as the end result?

i take it those preceding numbers are expressed as radians?

 

[Gladius]

M16A1:
Spread(0)=0.00042 // ~1.5 MOA

AK47:
Spread(0)=0.00125 // ~4.5 MOA

Type 56:
Spread(0)=0.00125 // ~4.5 MOA

AKM:

Where do you get those numbers from? Besides the shouldered and hipped spread modifyers I get in the ROWeap_AK47_AssaultRifle only this:

    Spread=/* Array type was not detected. */

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

To get back on topic, I don't know what Unus Offa, Unus Nex logic is, but the AK47 is only better at longer ranges, statistically speaking. The M16 is better in basically every way. The fact that it does less damage doesn't really change anything, it is still an assault rifle.
According to a comment above the Spread for the AKM: // Slightly less accurate - thin stamped receiver is the reason why. It's also only .5 MOA difference, which is only an 11% increase.

What I'm "on about" is incredibly simple: The AK47 is the better overall weapon ingame, and that because of a combination of things such as more usable less obstructive sights, higher mag capacity, more usable RoF and higher penetration. In addition to this the AK's recoil whilst higher than the M16's is still incredibly easy to manage.

Also that you claim the AK is only better at long range is incredibly strange seeing that's pretty much the only area where its at a disadvantage ingame due to the rather excessive (IMO) 4.5 to 5 MOA inaccuracy.

Furthermore lets keep in mind that in reality the 5.56 retains its energy better with range than the 7.62x39 and also generally generates more severe wounds up to about 150m range. If this isnt simulated ingame we have yet another problem, but the most severe is still the unrealistic and unfairly obstructive sights on the M16, something anyone who's operated the weapon knows.

That you keep wanting to dance around makes me wonder what you're "on about".

 

[Perun58]

The AK is literally the least accurate, least lethal rifle in the game with massive recoil.
The M16 has massive damage, laser accuracy, close to no recoil.

Stat-wise the AK is as bad as it gets. I have no clue what makes it "better overall weapon"...

And I am pretty sure that technically the AK sights are taking far more space than the M16 sights, because it's rear sights are massive.
This is how the AK sights should look like:

In the game they are taking far more space and are much less precise. They feel terribly "dull". I am not making excuses for unrealistic M16 sights by any means, but the AK sights are far from ideal. And I find myself switching between targets and shooting them much faster and more reliably with the M16 than the AK. It may have something to do with the fact that the M16 will actually shoot where it aims but I am sure that bad sigth picture on the AK has some role in it.

Also I think we should talk more about M3 sights because they are hands down the WORST sights in the game. They are so bad that I am using the M3 with folded stock all the time.

Anyway, the M16 should get thinner ring and the AK should get smaller rear sights and accuracy and damage boost.

 

[Perun58]

Slightly less accurate - thin stamped receiver[/I] is the reason why. It's also only .5 MOA difference, which is only an 11% increase.

Both the Type56 and the AKM are stamped in the game. Why should be one more accurate than the other? Also 0.5 MOA seems like a lot bigger difference than the stamped receiver should make.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Stat-wise the AK is as bad as it gets. I have no clue what makes it "better overall weapon"...

I couldn't disagree more, the AK has some of the easiest sights to use ingame, making quick acquisition of the target much easier and faster than with the M16 - that coupled with the higher dmg, penetration, more usable RoF and larger mag capacity made it by far the best weapon ingame for me. I consistently did much better with the AK, and only annoyance was its accuracy which sometimes, and I stress 'sometimes', prevented me from carrying out 150m headshots.

​​​​​​By comparison the ingame M16 sights are FAR more obstructive, infact even comparing them with those of the AK is rather laughable, and its the same with all the peep sights ingame - the M3 doesnt get the same attention simply because its a much less prominent and/or important weapon for the era and game, but its true that its got by far the worst sights ingame and pays the most for how peep sights are rendered ingame.

Now the problem with ALL the ingame peep sights is that they force the player to rely on quick flick shooting based on muscle memory alone as you quite simply can't put the sights on the target without momentarily losing it from view. The obvious reason being that in order to actually aim on a target with a peep sight also means having to place it within the ring, and the narrower the peep hole is, the harder it will also be tracking and accurately placing said target inside it. It's a matter of fact, not opinion.

V notch sights have no such issues ingame, and it was exactly the same in Rising Storm 1.

 

[Perun58]

I couldn't disagree more, the AK has some of the easiest sights to use ingame, making quick acquisition of the target much easier and faster than with the M16

Subjective. I can't stand them. The fact that the elevation pin is bigger than the actual sights is incredibly frustrating. I was strongly sceptical about the M16 sights but they are very, very precise and not that hard to use.

that coupled with the higher dmg

Sorry, but this is an actual value, not a matter of opinion - the AK has lower damage than any rifle in the game and the only primaries with lower or same damage are MAT a PPSh while the M16 has massive damage. 60% of my hits with the M16 are lethal but only about 1/3 of hits with the AK are lethal if my ingame stats are to be trusted.

penetration, more usable RoF and larger mag capacity made it by far the best weapon ingame for me.

Penetration yes. But as I said the M16 will penetrate the wall anyway. Higher magazine capacity is barely useful if bullets do no damage and the gun has apparently bent barrel. How is higher RoF disadvantage? The M16 has ideal rate of fire and is perfectly controlable in full auto... unlike some other guns. Most relevant attributes of the gun are in my opinion accuracy, damage and recoil. Everything else is secondary and the M16 is not only better than the AK in these, it's astronomically better.

annoyance was its accuracy which sometimes, and I stress 'sometimes', prevented me from carrying out 150m headshots.

I think you meant 100m, because on 150m it's not about carrying out headshots but about hitting guy "somewhere". On shooting range perfectly aimed AK won't constantly hit target on 200m and that's uncovered target in standing position ( I will need to do the video on that so there won't be no doubt that it's the gun, not the player is can't hit thing) . Shooting people who actually hide behind things and are not standing on more than 100m is a nightmare in the game. I am highly sceptical that it's 5 MOA, it's more like 15... we can't really talk about headshots...

​​​​​​By comparison the ingame M16 sights are FAR more obstructive, infact even comparing them with those of the AK is rather laughable

I think the only reason you say that is because M16 sights are around the target while the AK sights are mostly under it. What I am talking about is that if you count pixels on the screen covered by sights the AK would probably take more. I need to set my sights on the AK on 200-300m so I won't cover up my target while using it. With the M16 I have at least some space around the target when I aim on it. I am not arguing that the M16 has good sights. I am just claiming that the AK doesn't.

it was exactly the same in Rising Storm 1.

I honestly think that peep sights in RS1 were far worse. They were comparable to the M14 in RS2 before it got upgraded. They are still far from ideal but at least I can use them (with the exception of M3 and MAT)

It's not nearly as bad in RS2.