Authentic Ballistics & Sniping

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

15 year old Nazi Hitlerite Fascist? Hahahaha, alright this one is a goner!

As for the last photo, it's of an Ireali sniper using a K98k for counter sniping near the border of Jerusalem.

And yeah, the Isreali snipers still like the K98k:

 

[sniper1991]

Alright,Alright this is getting nowhere, You prefer the k98,I prefer the m91/30 - fair enough? my personal apoligy for the Nazi remark - that was uncalled for.

 

[Moyako]

So much lovin' in this thread
So much lovin' in this thread
Bleed my eyes this morning
Jah the hate is on the rise again....

 

[sniper1991]

I think we found 7thGuardsTankDiV's long lost brother in sniper1991, or maybe it even IS him! :IS2:

*Drives off in :IS2:*

Whats funny is tha

 

[LogisticEarth]

Being the communist I am - Im biased on everything Soviet made,even if its inferior to another model. Sorry...
Reading over I was asking for trouble as usual,wont happen again

Well, if you're a communist, you believe in the labor theory of value. Therefore you must admit that the K98 and Ziess optics are the superior weapon because they obviously require much more labor-power to produce!


Of course the labor theory of value is mostly bunk so that's irrelevent to the real world, but I digress, heh.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I really don't care about bias as long as it doesn't interfere with facts, and fact is that the Germans had the advantage in terms of equipment for their snipers from mid 1942 onwards.

First and foremost the German rifles & scopes were made to tighter tolerances, and on top of this they were equipped with better ammunition. Heck from 1944 onwards especially carefully made sS rounds for sniper use only was even made available. The German scopes were also better made, purged with argon, featuring a wider FOV and higher magnification power plus being calibrated for the trajectory of a specific bullet type. Additionally the mounts were studyer and provided more precise windage adjustment (downside being the "key" which needed to be used), whilst also allowing for the scope to be taken off and on without any loss of zero.

This made the German system superior for long range work, whilst the Soviet system was the better suited when it came to close range work, like in urban areas.

 

[sniper1991]

Sure the German scopes were manufactured with better quality,the PU sniper got the job done though - out to 800 yards at its extreme. from my experience my original m91/30 PU rifles hold their zero all day - the elevation drums dont move loosely but actually require quite a bit of force to move which helps hold your zero,my repro put together PU sniper rifle is a different story - piece of junk looses zero every 3 shots. Same for the Tokarev SVT-40 - an unreliable sniper rifle...
I know the PU scopes field of view is not as good as the 4X Zeiss but it was good enough for its intended purpose - taking out targets that the Tommy gunner or rifleman couldnt reach
PU,tree line 250 yards

A man named Nikolay Illyin killed 103 Germans in just 1 month using a m91/30 PU in Stalingrad.

And Allerberger im sure made quite a few kills with his

Overall I would not want to be on the receiving end of either German/Russian rifle because in the right hands both are very deadly

 

[Blue Orchestra]

Everyone is an expert on the Internet.

 

[The Masta]

I think we found 7thGuardsTankDiV's long lost brother in sniper1991, or maybe it even IS him! :IS2:

*Drives off in :IS2:*

Brilliant!

This thread:

They'll probably be the same ingame.
deal with it

 

[Dr. Pierre Chang]

i think we found 7thguardstankdiv's long lost brother in sniper1991, or maybe it even is him! :is2:

fact

Praise the glorious PU!

 

[Ermac]

You think the German snipers ever used the Gewehr 98 from WW1 for more accuracy?

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

For more accuracy? No, but perhaps for abit longer range gaining an extra 40 to 50 m/s due to the longer barrel. The Gew 98b from the early 30's, basically a modified Gew 98a, was used by quite a few Waffen SS snipers during the war.

Waffen SS scharfsch

 

[VariousNames]

Yeah, the point at which the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic causes a slight disturbance to the stability of the bullet.

Incase you don't have the figures here are some MV figures from the German weapons manuals:

Ballistic Coefficients & Sectional Density (weights in gram this time):

7.92x57mm JS:
12.8 g sS patr. FMJBT = BC: .594 (G1), SD: .204
11.5 g SmE, SmK patr. FMJBT = BC: .515 (G1), SD: .183
9.97 g S patr. FMJ = BC: .404 (G1), SD: .158

7.62x63mm (30-06):
9.71 g M2 Ball FMJ = BC: .407 (G1), SD: .167
11.14 g M72 Match FMJBT = BC: .520 (G1), SD: .191

7.62x54mm R Caliber:
9.52 g M1908 L FMJ = BC: .405 (G1), SD: .160
11.8 g M1930 D FMJBT = BC: .511 (G1), SD: .198

...
I came. Thanks.

What's your source for this information and where can I find it?

 

[VariousNames]

Everyone is an expert on the Internet.

Truedat.

I'm pretty expert myself.

Yeah, I do desire some more sources on these posts, as intriguing as a detailed discourse on ballistics and technology is, it's hard to know how much of it is BS when it's at that level. Can I get a technical manual or a research document?

 

[213]

great suggestion, but this level of accuracy isn't viable in a fairly mainstream game like red orchestra 2.

 

[VariousNames]

great suggestion, but this level of accuracy isn't viable in a fairly mainstream game like red orchestra 2.

They already modeled ballistics coefficients, trajectories, travel times, diminishing velocity etc...

and in RO2 they straight up added blur when you misalign a scope for god's sakes....adjustible sights...

Sorry man, this game is too far gone to be called mainstream, and their sim is already beyond your expectations.

In case there's other stuff you missed, Tripwire is adding internal player ballistics, internal tank ballistics, and fully modeled tank interiors....

Meanwhile the new Call of Duty stole the gun game from Counter Strike modders and all the mainstreamers will pay $60 to play it because they can't figure out how to upgrade their ****ing videocard.

 

[gvdgvdgvd]

That's the faster zeroing in of the PU scope I was talking about FlyXwire. However that documentary (which to my disappointment is rather amateurish for a number of simple reasons), fails to bring up the key advantages of the German mounting system;

1. The fine tuning of windage & elevation is much more precise on the German scopes
2. Once zeroed in the German scopes can be taken off & on without loss of zero
3. The German scopes have built in range adjustment based on the trajectory of the std. sniper round, removing the need for zeroing in the rifle everytime there is a change in range (significant advantage)
4. The German scopes are much more securely mounted and can be knocked hard without losing zero, whilst the Soviet PU scopes are notorious for losing zero at the slightest bump.

The German sniper rifle system (rifle + scope) was designed primarily for long range use, for which it was ideal, and must be said to be a much better specialist sniping platform than the Russian system. The german system was designed & built from the beginning to be a specialists tool for a specialists job, which sniping is. In short it was meant to be operated by trained experts, which the German Scharfsch

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

To answer the first question: Yes I have fired these rifles, plenty of times, having the opportunity two times a year on a military shooting range to fire a great number of different WW2 weapons on the same day.

As for the ballistics data; My source is quite simply factory ballistic tables and tests conducted with said ammunition types.

Fabrique Nationale d’Armes de Guerre in Belgium is one of the most prolific manufacturers of Mauser rifles and ammunition and, to this day, still produce commercial versions. They provide the following information for their version of the sS Patrone military load fired from the full length rifle (600mm):

Ballistic Coefficient measured of Sellier & Bellot 12.7 g sS patronen from 8x68S cartridge (marked in red), along with other bullets in different calibers:

Machine Gun grade 12.8 g sS projectile, with groove to keep the projectile seated in the cartridge during rough handling (BC= .584 [G1]):

Match grade 12.8 g sS projectile, clean and polished exterior to improve ballistic performance (BC= ~.595 [G1]):

The 7.62mm 9.7 g (150 gr) M2 Ball has a Ballistic Coefficient of .405 G1 according to most sources, thats the highest BC quoted atleast, others claim .394 G1 based on the commercial 150 gr Speer Spitzer FMJ. Personally I use .405 as a reference. The 7.62mm 147 gr Type L is slightly wider and lighter, and therefore features a lower BC.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

View through the 4x Ajack scope on one of my friends Mausers (Optical quality is just fantastic, looks more like it would on a modern scope as opposed to one from WW2, amazing):

 

[VariousNames]

The Kar98k used a 7.92x57mm cartridge, not a 8x68mm cartridge...