artillary in RO and WWII

[Letum]

RO has a strange take on artillary compared with how artillary actualy acts.


Field artillery in WWII had three basic missions; destroy, neutralize or suppress the enemy.

• Destroy

means exactly that-completely kill the enemy. This is the least preferred method for artillery usage, as it
requires a large amount of rounds to achieve this result. As an example, the US Army estimates it takes 72
rounds to kill one tank, and 40-50 rounds to destroy a platoon of infantry dug in. This can quickly use
up a battalions allotment of rounds for a battle.

• Neutralize

entails inflicting 20%-30% damage to a target; thus rendering the target combat ineffective.

• Suppress

means to stop the enemy from doing what he is doing- attacking, etc. by making him go to ground. By far the
most common use of artillery.


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Field artillery in Red Orchestra has two basic missions; destroy and block.

• Destroy

means exactly that-completely kill the enemy. This is the most common method for artillery usage, as it
requires very few to achieve this result. It takes only one placement to kill a tank, and static infantary
will be killed 99% of the time. This is the case because the artillery is 100% accurate and highly
concentrated.

• Block

This means simply stopping a enemy going to the location of the artillary. It workes well because the artillary
is totaly predictable and stable.
Suppression does not work in RO
Althow there are supressive effects, but you are far more likely to be killed then supressed.
You are not likely to "go to ground" because getting in a trench or lieing on the floor does not provide a
effective safegaurd against getting killed.


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In conclusion:
Red Orchestra's artillary is limited as to how realistic it can be.
In WWII artillary over 75mm would never be used in direct fire in front lines as small and fluid as the
game.This means that huge compromises must be made.However, I dont think the right balance has been
found. In fact it is hard to see where realism has been taken into account at all in striking the balance.


Ideas & Suggestions:
Prahaps a better balance could be met by:

• Makeing the artillary more sparse and unpredictable
• Incresceing the supression radius of each shell
• Haveing far less blast dammage for tanks

I am aware that Tripwire may be against chageing these kinds of aspects of the game, yet I belive this is as important a issue to take priority over adding new content.
Any Iders?

 

[Silky_Slim]

agree, it seems both sides use GPS guided shells.

 

[aesdana]

I also agree, very nice post

I think the arty explosions should be bigger visually though, that together with wider suppresion range would just rock

 

[Deathsai]

We have WWII-level artillery in RO:O? I always thought they implemented time-travelling American MLRSes.

 

[Dheepan]

Arty is much more effective than what the US army says on tanks atleast. That I know.

However I like the arty the way it is now, a well placed strike can completly turn the battle to one side. It has more tact. But I guess suppression would be cool. Personally I would like mappers to be able to decide on the type of arty used.

Arty that is used for suppression on Baraskha, isn't really gonna do anything.
But on a small infantry map arty that simulates mortars that provides a lot of suppressing fire would be nice.

 

[piller]

Theres also if im not mistaken different ways of fireing arty, its not all launched at the same spot. For example a progression of artillary starting at one point and progressively moving to another.

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

RO has a strange take on artillary compared with how artillary actualy acts.

what we have as artillery, it coud be more a kind of mortar. from its size

As you already very good stated, anything below 75m, woudnt be used realy (except mortars). But if we woud get "real" artilery from size, it woud be enough, to fill the whole map, where you have artillery (basovka for example). Ans you realy will get in cover, or take notize from it, when somewhere near you a 120, 150, 170, or even 240mm shell is going down near you ...

i always try to think about the artillery as some "mortar" again infantry, makes it a bit better.

 

[Deathsai]

what we have as artillery, it coud be more a kind of mortar. from its size

As you already very good stated, anything below 75m, woudnt be used realy (except mortars). But if we woud get "real" artilery from size, it woud be enough, to fill the whole map, where you have artillery (basovka for example). Ans you realy will get in cover, or take notize from it, when somewhere near you a 120, 150, 170, or even 240mm shell is going down near you ...

i always try to think about the artillery as some "mortar" again infantry, makes it a bit better.

Mortars do not annihilate tanks with a single blast.

 

[Captian Kil]

In the mod there was this map where the entire map would be air striked every 5 mins, it would be kinda embarrising seeing "AIR STRIKE INIMENT" popping up and an ruskie and a german huddling beside each other in a bulding as the bombs annilated everything outside.

 

[Letum]

Mortars do not annihilate tanks with a single blast.

nor do they make the "boom, boom" sounds when they are fired.
The artillary in RO is clearly trying to portray tube artillery (75mm - 155mm)

 

[Byte Me]

Copied and pasted from another thread I posted this in.

In RO this is the arty availible (depends on map) for the German's, according to the History and Tactics Guide (Page 63):

• 80mm motars - platoon or company level weapons
• 105mm guns - division level weapons
• 150mm guns/howitzers - division or corps level weapons

Artillery the Russian's use (page 79):

• 82mm motars - platoon or company level division weapons
• 76.2mm guns - regiment or division level weapons
• 122mm guns/howitzers - division or corps level weapons
• Rocket artillery - corps or army level; remember that this will fire in a single salvo of 16 or 32 rounds

So its a mix of motars and artillery. Although I don't know which type is used on each map.

 

[Letum]

Copied and pasted from another thread I posted this in.

So its a mix of motars and artillery. Although I don't know which type is used on each map.

I see no diffrance on any of the maps

 

[jedinstven-o crni Wuk]

Mortars do not annihilate tanks with a single blast.

of course not, youre totally right. But its gives me a more realistic feeling to imagine it as "mortar", it just makes, to me, in infantry maps, a bit more sense. What ever, in arad or other tanks maps, i think about it, as a "air strike".

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

How about the commander gets to choose between mortars (more concentrated smaller explosions) or artillery (spread apart and larger explosions). Then you can have maybe 10-12 mortar strikes available and 2-3 arty strikes depending on the maps.

The mortars would not damage the tanks while the arty would be less concentrated and not be garanteed to kill a tank.

 

[Silky_Slim]

What about a system where the commander uses the radio, which brings up a
menu, where he can select what type of support he can use for the map he is in; Mortars or heavy gun/howitzers. etc





^
Beat me to it.

 

[Teq]

Im never giving up on this

IF:
1) Increase ALL suppression effects by 200%
2) Suppression FX influence stamina.
2) each teammate within 20m decrease suppression effect 15%. Each commander within 20m decrease 25%.
3) WOund/explotion knockdown - Shells/nades/wounds (except hands) will auto knock you to ground.
4) change Suppression blur/fade to TUNNELVISION (the more suppression the narrover FOV)
5) Stamina affacts the aiming much more (sprinting and shooting, will be harder, so one must make shorter runs, to be effective shooter)

This would add the following REALISTIC feats to the game:
1) Suppression fire would work (Especially for the MG)
2) Teams that stay close gains better aim and stamina (advantage over rambo players)
3) Arty will work like it should, Being a MORALE BREAKER (as you say mostly to suppress enemy)
4) Commander will get its function cause teammates gets benefits staying close to him.
5) Fear of death will be "felt" cause you get a tunnelvision telling you that you are in danger (nobody should be able to TOGGLE this OFF!!)
6) MG will be Feared, cause when it fires, you are only able to see 4cm in the centre of your screen (as the adrenaline cause tunnel effect)
7) Grenades will supress more, like they should.
8) Explotions will pin solders (thus tanks support will have a strong pin effect)
9) The Four F's can be used (Find, fix, flank and finish the enemy)
10) Only the sniper, mortar, and tanks has a real chance on the MG.
11) There would be a benefit staying close to team, and communication would be greatly enhanced.
12) Being wounded, you will be put outta play for a few sec's as you are knocked to ground.
13) Stamina Vs aiming will make the bolt action guys less accurate if they run around like idiots.
Sniper must rest before he can make effective shots.

CHECK OUT THIS LINK FOR DEMO OF TUNNELVISION:
http://www.fotothing.com/Tequnique/photo/5745036738b0156024e0eccca41fdd41/

 

[otester]

I think artellery should be more randomly placed 75mm HE shells in high concentration.

 

[Harry S. Truman]

Mortars do not annihilate tanks with a single blast.

Unless you get that 1 in a million shell that drops into an open hatch!

 

[Harry S. Truman]

What about a system where the commander uses the radio, which brings up a
menu, where he can select what type of support he can use for the map he is in; Mortars or heavy gun/howitzers. etc

Although this sounds neat, it doesn't really mesh with what field commanders were able to do in the war. A unit would have certain artillery assets assigned to them. They could call for fire support from these assets and HOPE to get a fire mission. This wasn't always the case, as the artillery asset might be busy with a fire mission for another unit at the momement.

Typically, the unit leader couldn't call up the command structure to call in fire from higher eshelons of artillery, but only a higher commander could accomplish that.

A more realistic use would be, you spot where you want your artillery to fall. You use the radio to see if a fire mission is available. If available, they fire a spotting round. The leader sees where the round lands and then either adjusts fire or calls for "Fire for effect". You could even just call the first shot to be FFE. Which in case it comes much more quickly but is likely to be less accurate and more dispersed.

We should have the option of calling for a smoke mission as well.

You should be able to have the fire mission "open" or "closed". An open mission is sometimes referred to as "harassing fire" It's widely dispersed and lands in a very large area. It's not very deadly, but it can supress a much greater area. A closed mission is something like we have now when the rounds fall. Very dense and very deadly.

 

[Deathsai]

Unless you get that 1 in a million shell that drops into an open hatch!

I had that happen to me in CM:BB awhile ago. Chillin' out, waiting for the Germans to attack my little collective farmhouse, with a T-34 next to it...couple of mortars start dropping around, next thing I know my tank explodes in my face.