Anyone ever thought of bringing the M99's ammo back to the ground level?

[Katotsu]

I de-railed a topic. I'm sorry. If you want to continue this Mk 23 discussion, please make a new thread for it.

I wonder how much useage the m99 actually has since the "fix" to balance it...

I've only ever tried using it twice, and one of those times was on Icebreaker. At wave 5 I had around 9k pounds. I never had more than 1k and it at the same time, and had to scrap it 2 waves later. It is not worth using at its current price, ever.

 

[ArcheKruz]

Yeah, Normal's the only difficulty I could get away with using the M99 for.

 

[nd2spd]

At which point there is no reason to because, playing on normal, you could destroy just as easily with the xbow.

 

[FluX]

At which point there is no reason to because, playing on normal, you could destroy just as easily with the xbow.

See this is the point. Too many people are complaining about balance on the M99 when the Crossbow is just as bad currently. Balance both to make them both unique and useful or don't touch either.

 

[nd2spd]

Azukki had it in a nutshell in his first post.
It's all about cutting reload/firing speed bonus. Crossbow will be a less forgiving, no more missing the second shot because who cares and no more autobow'ing scs like a madman.
M99 will become the LAW for sharp. Just as the LAW allows the demo to take out FPs & SCs at the sacrifice of a secondary weapon. The M99 will allow sharp to be an everyman, for those low player-count teams or trashkilling teams with 1 big guy handler, allowing you to take down FPs provided you don't miss, right now it is too forgiving.
That's why I went back to get the old IJC pack, because the M99 in that is exactly what I'm talking about.
Even to the point where, on 6man HoE, LAW on is not quite enough to get rid of FP & SC in 2 shots, similarly the old M99 is not quite enough to take down a FP in 2 shots, and 1 shot and 3 beretta shots for a SC.
The reload speed is almost identical, you have to take the second shot right when fp lowers his head in angry charge.
LAW's drawback is enemies getting too close and making the shot worthless. M99 is missing and making shots worthless.

That's the main issue I see. The 'headshots only' specialisation is then returned for sharp.
On that note, of-course tweak M99 dmg so no more bodyshot stuns, at-least none off-perk.
Once the real balancing has happened the M99 ammo price can be lowered a bit to account for a more skillful weapon. And I guess, as others suggested the xbow price can be perk-priced to reflect its power, 800 becomes on-perk only.
Yeah I came around, but don't go crazy with that off-perk price.

Hunting Rifle becomes the new lvl 6 sharpy spawn. I can dream...

 

[naksiloth]

I still stand behind my words about M99,
-Forced scope
-M99 reload bonus should be removed (around 4 seconds of reload time),
-Base damage should be reduced down to 660(no offperk shots stun Scrakes),
-Bodyshot damage should be increased within' Sharpshooter (60% damage bonus increasing up to 1056 damage per bodyshot stunning a Scrake and enraging the Fleshpound in case you miss. If you keep body shotting a Scrake that will cost you 7 bullets which costs 1750

 

[Althamus]

and I can't think about any usage about crossbow if TWI were to remove its reload speed bonus, please don't. If something like that happens crossbow resistance from Fleshpound should go away but that will make M99 obsolete. No idea.

You do realise it used to be like this, and was still a great weapon?
On... suicidal or below it could still kill anything no problem, and on HoE it still had it's place being able to kill anything scrake and below without a hitch - you just needed to rely on your friendly demo to kill FPs (or be good with a long lead on him).

 

[nd2spd]

Naksiloth, why do you want to make the headshot damage of M99 even higher?

Yes, the M99 will outclass the xbow for FPs, that's kinda the entire point in my post.

The bow still fires pretty fast without the bonus, enough to still be able to take down FPs if you can nail the shots and have a bit of room.
At the moment in a short lane on testmap you can miss headshots twice to even three times before the FP will even reach you, and end up still killing it with that sloppy aim. (This is assuming 5-man HoE or 6-man with predamage. So 3 bolts are required to be hs's)
You can kill scrakes in like less than a second without even adjusting aim.
This is absurd. The xbow is still great without bonus, you'll just have to aim for scrake's swaying head, shocking I know.

Where the M99 makes its second shot (mid-charge) the xbow will roughly make its third (so it requires you to take aim only one more time and can decap FP just as quick if you're good). M99 will be the more expensive and less forgiving cousin to the xbow, but likewise more rewarding as it will, in most situations eliminate scrakes in a single shot.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

Why do people still want to raise the bodyshot damage on perk? You could just modify the FPs resistance to M99 bodyshots, making it so a single shot will do the 300 and something amount of damage. That way, Sharps aren't imune to Scrakes (the bodyshots ;_; ), but they are punished for missing with the FP.

 

[moleculo]

You do realise it used to be like this, and was still a great weapon?
On... suicidal or below it could still kill anything no problem, and on HoE it still had it's place being able to kill anything scrake and below without a hitch - you just needed to rely on your friendly demo to kill FPs (or be good with a long lead on him).

At that point I'd vastly prefer a decent sharp with M14 + musket/LAR in my team. Or 2 good supports. I'm kinda ok with M14 becoming the "number one choice" again, but if you remove reload bonus for those weapons I'd like to see the shotgun penetration damage bug tweaked, too.

 

[mrsirr]

Wow this has been going on for a crazy long time. I'm not getting much out of it cuz its sorta being talked to death. All this discussion juss confuses me :0
I'm not really making any arguement but Imma just say this.

Nerf
Decrease reload speed (or rof, whatever it is in this case)
Decrease base damage to 660 (or 650 since 650 is a better number :T)
Force ADS (maybe; dunno if this is quite necessary)

Buff
Decrease ammunition cost

Hmm, came out alot shorter than I thought it would :/

I'm not hugely opposed to the idea of increasing base damage for the sharpshooter, but it seems that alot of people are; I'm really on the fence about that part.

 

[FluX]

Wow this has been going on for a crazy long time. I'm not getting much out of it cuz its sorta being talked to death. All this discussion juss confuses me :0
I'm not really making any arguement but Imma just say this.

Nerf
Decrease reload speed (or rof, whatever it is in this case)
Decrease base damage to 660 (or 650 since 650 is a better number :T)
Force ADS (maybe; dunno if this is quite necessary)

Buff
Decrease ammunition cost

Hmm, came out alot shorter than I thought it would :/

I'm not hugely opposed to the idea of increasing base damage for the sharpshooter, but it seems that alot of people are; I'm really on the fence about that part.

Don't touch the base damage, it is very high for a reason. It's a .50cal. Forcing ADS is an interesting idea and I may take it up if I was to buff the M99. I will never advice increasing base damage for Sharpshooter as their headshot damage outdoes any damage going with their 9mm compared to the other perks top tier weapons.

 

[mrsirr]

Don't touch the base damage, it is very high for a reason. It's a .50cal. Forcing ADS is an interesting idea and I may take it up if I was to buff the M99. I will never advice increasing base damage for Sharpshooter as their headshot damage outdoes any damage going with their 9mm compared to the other perks top tier weapons.

Well I mentioned the base damage just because I don't think a body shot should stun a scrake.
Heck, I'd be fine if it did 665 damage, as long as it doesn't stun scrake on bodyshot. I don't feel like it does too much damage or anything, it strikes me as a bit low frankly, but I suppose we must have balance.

 

[naksiloth]

Naksiloth, why do you want to make the headshot damage of M99 even higher?

Yes, the M99 will outclass the xbow for FPs, that's kinda the entire point in my post.

The bow still fires pretty fast without the bonus, enough to still be able to take down FPs if you can nail the shots and have a bit of room.
At the moment in a short lane on testmap you can miss headshots twice to even three times before the FP will even reach you, and end up still killing it with that sloppy aim. (This is assuming 5-man HoE or 6-man with predamage. So 3 bolts are required to be hs's)
You can kill scrakes in like less than a second without even adjusting aim.
This is absurd. The xbow is still great without bonus, you'll just have to aim for scrake's swaying head, shocking I know.

Where the M99 makes its second shot (mid-charge) the xbow will roughly make its third (so it requires you to take aim only one more time and can decap FP just as quick if you're good). M99 will be the more expensive and less forgiving cousin to the xbow, but likewise more rewarding as it will, in most situations eliminate scrakes in a single shot.

Crossbow without any reload bonus fires after 1,2 seconds; that means I have to put like 40 meters of distance to FP instead of 25 meters and when I miss just one shot among three I'll most likely meet my end. That's a huge nerf for the class, even nothing changes for Scrakes team would feel better with a berserker perhaps.

For M99, it's a punishing weapon when you made a mistake but also player shouldn't rely on others to make up for huge mistakes.
As an M99 user I have to put a rather larger distance against FP, that's what I should learn; secondly I shouldn't miss my first shot. With 4 seconds of reload Sharp can put some distance to FP and decap it as it starts to run.

In case Sharp misses the first shot and scores a bodyshot FP will enrage by just taking 500 damage (when my idea of increased bodyshot damage applied ofc; less than 360 damage every 2 seconds rule).
Although increased bodyshot damage will allow sharp to shut down a Siren from close before aiming for FP's throat. If Sharp dares to engage FP from a rather shorter range, Sharp could shut down the Siren and there should be a Demolition or Support to nuke the enraging FP.

You do realise it used to be like this, and was still a great weapon?
On... suicidal or below it could still kill anything no problem, and on HoE it still had it's place being able to kill anything scrake and below without a hitch - you just needed to rely on your friendly demo to kill FPs (or be good with a long lead on him).

I remember v1014 and well... Crossbow was overpowered back there with like 5600 headshot damage one-shotting Fleshpound's head like it's an apple. (No offense taken to the MAC users, there's a guy called Telle in the history and... Nevermind...)
Now Crossbow has a quicker reload of 0,7 sec and it requires at least 3 or 4 shots to kill a FP. In case you put distance you can waste one of the 4 shots -considering you scored headshots on the other 3 bolts- and finish the job with a mere single Handcannon headshot and rest of the magazine to the body.

In case faster reload is removed; you will reduce the space to make mistakes to a minimal state; as Sharp misses one shot he'll be minced meat, unless a Demolition reacts to the enraged FP.
I think because of Crossbow's price and damage it shouldn't be that cruel to the players who happen to miss.

 

[Althamus]

At that point I'd vastly prefer a decent sharp with M14 + musket/LAR in my team. Or 2 good supports. I'm kinda ok with M14 becoming the "number one choice" again, but if you remove reload bonus for those weapons I'd like to see the shotgun penetration damage bug tweaked, too.

Aye, the LAR/EBR was definitely the HoE sharp loadout of choice back then, although usage varied. Where you can manouver a bit (especially where there were few zeds), LAR/EBR was by far the best. In something like Biotics, Xbow still shone because you can't really get the time/space to EBR a FP when everything is packed into a corridor.

 

[nd2spd]

Killing Floor - Xbow & M99 reload bonus balance - YouTube

CROSSBOW
WITH RELOAD BONUS: 00:00
At the beginning of the video you'll notice I put in a command to set mouse sensitivity to 0, disabling 'look' entirely. The next 2 kills then demonstrate how adjusting aim is not needed AT ALL to kill either a Scrake or a FleshPound on 6-man HoE with the crossbow at level 6 Sharpshooter. You'll also notice that to do these, you don't need ANY room at all and can be preformed practically on-the-spot.
This entirely defeats the point of having an M99 in the game at all.
The remainder of the video does not feature a sensitivity of 0, i.e. mouse is fully enabled for the rest.
FP kill no. 2 00:30 demonstrates how you can miss 2 shots (this is why I'm clearly shooting at the wall) and still get 4 headshots in a short space with the current xbow.
FP kill no. 3 00:40 demonstrates that with 1 HC shot pre-damage(or after-damage if you prefer), 3 shots can be missed while still killing the FleshPound in a fairly short distance.

WITHOUT RELOAD BONUS: 00:55
At this point I change to Support Specialist in order to simulate how fast the xbow fires without the current Sharp6 reload bonuses, and using the 'killzeds' command at the appropriate time to simulate how quickly each enemy can be eliminated.
I fire at the Scrake's chest to simulate head position after a stun, notice how aim needs to be adjusted now without the bonus.
FP kill no. 4 01:05 demonstrates that with the same space, you can still get the 4 headshots required to take down a FP without the current reload bonus.
FP kill no. 5 01:16 demonstrates that pre or after-damage HC shot and 3 xbow headshots are still an entirely viable method of killing the FP without the bonus.
FP kill no. 6 01:26 shows that for 5-man HoE or with pre-damage, you can still miss 1 xbow headshot and kill the FleshPound without taking damage.

This is forgiving enough for the xbow kills, as the M99 should play a bigger role in the Sharp's ability to handle FPs.

M99 01:38
WITH BONUS:
As you can see a 6-man HoE FP can be eliminated even when 2 shots of M99 are missed.
Finally, you can see that currently 0 room and only slight re-aim (to account for recoil) is needed for quick Scrake and FleshPound kills with the current M99.
WITHOUT BONUS:
See my video on the old IJC Weapon Pack White V2.7 M99 for proposed changes to the M99 -

Spoiler!

Killing Floor - IJC M99 - YouTube

However, damage for the M99 can remain as current, so Scrakes would be 1 headshot and FleshPounds would be dead after the second.

In conclusion, sharpshooter players would actually have to be sharp shooters in order to tackle big enemies.

It would probably become less common to have 0 demos when there's a sharp or two on the team. Demolitions would return to be the rightful king of FleshPound killing.

 

[moleculo]

Aye, the LAR/EBR was definitely the HoE sharp loadout of choice back then, although usage varied. Where you can manouver a bit (especially where there were few zeds), LAR/EBR was by far the best. In something like Biotics, Xbow still shone because you can't really get the time/space to EBR a FP when everything is packed into a corridor.

Those were the times Now that you said it, I remember bow being used in some situations, yeah. So removing bow reload bonus would actually give it a nice role at killing Scrakes reliably, whereas M14 would be the "better" option with higher skill ceiling, so both would have their uses.

*snip*

Nice demonstration videos! I agree, that's the way it SHOULD be. I also agree pistols should be tweaked (by removing the penetration bonus, there's no reason for it to be there).

But then again please take into consideration that other classes are very powerful too these days. So some balance overhaul would be in place before nerfing poor sharpie. Take a look at support (my fav example), he'd still rid off scrakes and FPs effortlessly while also becoming much better trash killer than sharp. Or zerk, who makes short work (a head short ) of scrakes in no time.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

But then again please take into consideration that other classes are very powerful too these days. So some balance overhaul would be in place before nerfing poor sharpie. Take a look at support (my fav example), he'd still rid off scrakes and FPs effortlessly while also becoming much better trash killer than sharp. Or zerk, who makes short work (a head short ) of scrakes in no time.

You say this as if Sharp is loosing the M14

 

[mrsirr]

I dunno yous guys T_T
I was thinking about the M99 all day today.
TWI just seems all reluctant to change stuff like this. No offense to TW or anything. But do somethin with it <:O
It's totally borked

 

[naksiloth]

@nd2spd:
Really appreciated that you took your time to make this video, it really cleared something in my mind. But well... I still think that hallway in the testmap distance is a bit too long compared to usual reliable hole up points in the game. Bedlam spawn and Westlondon church comes to my mind, but in anyway, you shown the way how it should be done. If sharp really needs to get near he shoulda grab an M14+LaR/Musket anyway.

Also I really believe something should be done about M99 and yes, I still think about bodyshot damage, forced scope and no more offperk Scrake stun shots. (I mean come on! Single bullet costs more than the level 6 Demolition pipebombs)
After seeing this video I'm really not entirely sure about it but I can say yes for Crossbow reload bonus removal, although If reload bonus removed from both xbow and M99; I do believe crossbow will make M99 obsolete.