Anyone ever thought of bringing the M99's ammo back to the ground level?

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Utopia-Phoenix

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 25, 2011
1,112
348
83
31
Qingdao, Shandong, China
250 pounds for a round is stupid. Fast bolting is stupid. I was seeking for the old IJC pack since M99 in it is more balanced.

Set aside the stupid rate of fire, M99's bullet worths 40 pounds at most. That's still 1000 pounds for a full refill. Quite a burden to the team finances.

Also, even if the fast rate of fire is considered, the ammo pool for this weapon doesn't allow a lot of shots. One will run out of ammo before half of the wave if he dares.
 

Arblarg

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 24, 2012
1,394
6
0
Illinois, U.S.
I'm sure people have thought about it.

How about make it cost $80 a boolet at level 6 sharp. That way missing and having to take an additional shot to kill a scrake or fleshpound costs money. $80 would be covered by one shotting a scrake and $160 would be covered by 2 shotting a fleshpound. Missing will cost you.

Meh, M99 sux anyway. I panic when I see people using it.
 
Last edited:

mrsirr

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 12, 2013
4,068
0
0
Over here, no not there, here.
But it could be good. It's part of the game so it should have a use.
It's so sad what it is now
Just sitting in the trader's place getting all dusty until someone new shows up and totally wants it because he thinks its a Barret .50 cal (of course it is, but these people have no idea what that is.)
It does need a place in the game.
I don't know what that is, but I think it starts with the cartridges costing less than a hotel room.
 

Azukki

Grizzled Veteran
Jul 7, 2009
1,511
130
63
I think the ammo should be decreased to 100 dosh per round. Still prohibitively expensive, but not to the point of being exclusively useful against pat, like currently.
But, to nerf if, either get rid of the reload bonus, or slow down the base reload time so that the level 6 reload time is what the base reload time currently is.

With those little two number changes, I think the m99's balancing would be somewhat like the LAW's: over-specialized and impractical compared to other loadouts, but still useful with teamwork, and really awesome looking when it gets its chance to shine.


But it seems TWI is much more concerned with selling eight dollar reskin packs of weapons, instead of making sure all the weapons actually have a good role in the gameplay.
 
Last edited:

vealck

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2009
2,815
234
0
How about no. Tell you what: I sometimes roll M99 sharp on HoE nowadays for fun and it's perfectly doeable, without ever asking for money. Why the hell do you think that you must have full ammo?

You are able to buy M99 after second wave. When you buy M99 you get 5 free shots. Use them. Next wave, sell the weapon, buy it again, you get another 5 rounds at very low price. The rest of your money can buy you another 2-3 rounds. Collect some ammo boxes - each one contains 2 rounds - you just saved 500 quid. At waves 8-10 you'll have around 12 rounds for your disposal per wave + ammo pickups. That's at least 12 friggin' dead scrakes, or 6 FPs. Hell, you can even line scrakes and kill 2 in one shot. It's as close to balance as we can get, given the power of that gun, and it's fine.

Forget about killing every biggie yourself, you're not a god, and the world doesn't revolve around you. Also, a team that cannot cope without M99 sharp killing everything, should go play on the lower difficulty.
 

Azukki

Grizzled Veteran
Jul 7, 2009
1,511
130
63
I think that with your m99 kill bounty dosh, your 9mm kill bounty dosh, and your survival bonus dosh, (which doubles your bounty money, on average ["average" being the assumption that all players on the server will earn equal bounty and survive]) you should have enough money to buy enough ammo to be useful, (killing all FPs and some scrakes that you come across) but if you want to have enough money to fill up your ammo and dominate the high value target role, (killing all FPs and all scrakes you come across, and some husks when it's urgent) you should need either some savings or some financial support from the team.

Considering the survival bonus, at 100 dosh per round, killing scrakes would almost break even, (-4 net dosh on HoE or Sui) killing FPs would be costly, (-70 net dosh on HoE or Sui) and killing husks would be expensive (-89 net dosh on HoE or Sui).
Making up for the losses from killing scrakes would be negligibly easy, just kill one clot for every two scrakes you M99. Killing six crawlers would make up for the loss of M99ing a FP. Killing four bloats would make up for the loss of M99ing a Husk.

So at 100 dosh per round , you could potentially dominate and make money, if you played extremely efficiently. More feasibly, if you only played very well, you'd be able to be useful with your own money, and dominate if the team helps you out.
So that's why I think 100 dosh per round is just about right for the M99.



Vealck, the rebuy for ammo technique is an outright exploit.
Ammo box hunting is a very legitimate technique, but if you only take your fair share of them, on HoE, it won't help much at all.
I think that if an extremely skilled player has to cheat and hog all the ammo just in order to be useful with a weapon without begging for spare change, and he has to justify his choice of ever using that weapon by pointing out that it's fun, then that weapon is probably underpowered.


Forget about killing every biggie yourself, you're not a god, and the world doesn't revolve around you.
If you've spent lodes emony, and filled up 93% of your inventory, just for one hyperspecialized weapon, the world of the few targets that the weapon is specially suited for (at the cost of being absolutely horrible against everything else) kinda should revolve around you, I think.
 
Last edited:

vealck

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2009
2,815
234
0
Vealck, the rebuy for ammo technique is an outright exploit.

I'm not so sure about that. Trader offers constant prices for weapons, no matter how much ammo is there in them. If you sell a weapon full of expensive ammo (offperk xbow, etc), you lose considerate amount of money. It's a simplified game mechanic, sometimes you lose, sometimes you gain from it. If you call a player an exploiter for using that, you might as well call the trader a cheating b**ch when she doesn't pay for extra ammo when you sell something. Also, exploits are getting fixed by TWI on regular basis, and this was never changed.

I think that if an extremely skilled player has to cheat and hog all the ammo just in order to be useful with a weapon without begging for spare change, and he has to justify his choice of ever using that weapon by pointing out that it's fun, then that weapon is probably underpowered.

Nah, it just says that weapon is broken. And it is, by its tremendous damage. And because without that damage there is no point of it existing, it was crudely 'balanced' by ammo price equal to its killing power. The truth is, M99 with regular ammo price actually DESTROYED suicidal and HoE difficulties, and such a weapon should never be introduced in KF, that's all. But if someone really, really wants to use that weapon for some reason (like fun), I wrote you how it can be done.

If you've spent lodes emony, and filled up 93% of your inventory, just for one hyperspecialized weapon, the world of the few targets that the weapon is specially suited for (at the cost of being absolutely horrible against everything else) kinda should revolve around you, I think.

Nope. It's a team game. Like I said before, if the survival of an entire team depends on ammo supply of one extremely overpowered player, this is a sign that balance is broken, and those people chose a server way too difficult for their skills.
 

Azukki

Grizzled Veteran
Jul 7, 2009
1,511
130
63
Tripwire not having fixed it yet doesn't at all seem like they're condoning it, it just means that it hasn't caused major enough trouble for them to be bothered. On other weapons, the rebuy exploit isn't a huge deal, since most other ammos are cheapish anyways, and you only get two pipebombs. I think the Xbow once had to be updated to make this exploit less effective, so I think TWI is aware of it, and does see that it can be a problem. On the M99 as it currently is, the exploit is a major advantage, but because the M99 as-is is underpowered, a cheat giving a major advantage isn't trouble.
If TWI encouraged the technique, I think it's very unideal of them to handle their game that way, because it's a convoluted, unintuitive, and unreasonable mechanic, much like scrake headshots, dual pistol mechanics, and lots of other things in this game. These complexities can have a certain charm to them, for people like us, that have played for years, "emergent gameplay", but it's trouble for newcomers, and I think it's why a lot of people can't get used to KF, and come to love it.
And yeah, I do think the trader kinda is a cheat, for not paying us back for ammo. The difference between buy and sell prices, which is justified and reasonable, obscures that issue, though.


It's broken because it's unbalanced. "Balanced" means a balance between advantages and disadvantages. Just because the damage of the M99 is incredibly high doesn't mean that it's unbalanceable, it just means that it needs to have equally incredible disadvantages. This would create a balanced, but hyper-specialized weapon. But right now, the extremely prohibitive ammo cost tips the scales too much, so most players entirely dismiss the M99, because it's underpowered.
Since the scale of the disadvantages and advantages is so high, balancing issues kind of get magnified, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to get them to be acceptably low. 250 dosh bullets are more balanced than cheap ones, but it's too much, and TWI could do better by lowering their price.

Ideally, TWI would gradually cheapen the ammo by small increments until m99 is seen in moderately common use, so they could stop buffing it when the balance is perfectly dialed in, and be certain that it'll never become significantly OP again, overshadowing its competitors like it once did.
But TWI clearly isn't interested in constant balancing tweaks like that.
So that's why I'm pushing the 100 figure; I imagine it's approximately the sweet spot, and if TWI would listen to me, they might be able to balance the M99 quite nicely immediately, with only a single tweak.


Team play shouldn't be about everyone being a part of everything, it's quite the opposite, I think. Good teamwork is when you've got varied specializations, each working for the good of the group, in different ways, against different problems. If the commando kills nearly all the stalkers and crawlers, the medic does nearly all the healing, and the m99 does nearly all of the scrake killing and FP damaging, that's good teamwork. At the cost of depending on each other, there's synergy; every problem that the team faces has someone focused on it and equipped for efficiently dealing with it.
While you can certainly validly say that the dependance is a crutch, I think it's a more interesting and fun dynamic than when all the players are versatile.
Six do-everything rambos that stick together just for brute force can be fun, but aside from the exciting chaos of lots of stuff going on around you, you may as well be playing by yourself on a lower difficulty.
 
Last edited:

nd2spd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 24, 2011
1,077
0
0
Vic Australia
www.facebook.com
I agree with Azukki.
Vealck, what about the proposed removal of reload/fire speed bonus that Flux has been testing?
In my mind, with a slower M99 it might just bring back the need for another person who can take out a big guy in an emergency, in that case where you get a surge of FPs/SCs.
 

ArcheKruz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 2, 2013
479
1
0
Why not reduce the base damage of the M99 so it's lower than the Crossbow? Then increase the HS multiplier, so HS damage is higher than the Crossbow's? This should make the gun not so overpowered that it could be used as a close-range Scrake stunning tool, but rather, it makes it so that it fits the perk's role of headshots being important and rewards good Sharpshooters accordingly and penalizes bad shots.

I am thinking of the base damage being 240, and the base headshot multiplier being 6.325x and bullets being
 
Last edited:

FluX

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 26, 2010
5,379
234
63
www.fluxiserver.co.uk
I agree with Azukki.
Vealck, what about the proposed removal of reload/fire speed bonus that Flux has been testing?
In my mind, with a slower M99 it might just bring back the need for another person who can take out a big guy in an emergency, in that case where you get a surge of FPs/SCs.
My tests have worked well so far. The
 

vealck

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2009
2,815
234
0
We've got that discussion already, quite recently I might add.
[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=90225[/URL]

Let me reprise my final statement from that thread.

Spoiler!
 

nd2spd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 24, 2011
1,077
0
0
Vic Australia
www.facebook.com
I remember reading that thread, now that I see it. You make a good argument.
I'm not sure you can make it more skilled when the theme of the weapon is what it is. I guess half the intended balance is to have only a 9mm to back you up.
You could just keep slowing down the weapon until it takes like 10 seconds between shots but then it would look really dumb.
 

Utopia-Phoenix

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 25, 2011
1,112
348
83
31
Qingdao, Shandong, China
I remember reading that thread, now that I see it. You make a good argument.
I'm not sure you can make it more skilled when the theme of the weapon is what it is. I guess half the intended balance is to have only a 9mm to back you up.
You could just keep slowing down the weapon until it takes like 10 seconds between shots but then it would look really dumb.

You reminded me of reloading a M60E4 when playing COD. You can describe it as dumb but I don't mind something superior, cumbersome. BUT THAT DOES FIT ITS ROLE. Slow reload? Heavy weight? No backup weapon other than 9mm? Its price as dear as