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Any thoughts on rewarding suppression?

Mormegil

Grizzled Veteran
Nov 21, 2005
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Nargothrond
Though suppression works in RO2 (not as strongly as, say DH, but it's a good compromise), most people seem to under use it.

Any thoughts on ways to reward people for using suppression? Perhaps kill assists, or even team work points. The game itself knows when you're successfully suppressing somebody, as your avatar says so (I think, I've had native voices on too long).

Of course, we can also ask for higher suppression effects, bullet cracks, etc, but a lot of people hate suppression effects. So I thought this might be a way to get more suppression in by incentivising player behavior.
 
I'd like to see it be more effective.

I've often, perhaps wrongly, been irritated that I've been killed by someone who I'd just peppered with near misses.

I always think "Oh in real life, you would have just stood there like Rambo would you? Bullet's flying past your face as you aim for the super l33t headshot?" - but maybe sometimes I just haven't suppressed them enough. But you would think an MG would do the trick.
 
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I always think "Oh in real life, you would have just stood there like Rambo would you? Bullet's flying past your face as you aim for the super l33t headshot?" - but maybe sometimes I just haven't suppressed them enough. But you would think an MG would do the trick.

Well, there are two aspects to this.

First off, suppression (And bullet whips/snaps) is bugged at the moment. It only works if you're within 9 meters of the path of an instant-hit shot (The muzzle is over something at <=50m for a rifle, <=25m for SMG/MKb/Pistol), or else, if you're within 9m of where a bullet impacts terrain. This means that, quite frequently, you won't even get any suppression or bullet sound. Someone at long range, particularly prone, will have the majority of misses land beyond the 9m suppression range, and even those that do land inside it are likely to do fairly little.

And second, no amount of suppression mechanics will actually do what suppression does IRL: make you scared to expose yourself. So long as there is no fear of death, being shot at simply won't scare anyone but the most susceptible of players. If all that matters is the mechanical suppression effect, that's all an experienced player will give any credence to, and you will still get the unrealistic behavior of people being completely unfazed by being shot at, and either waiting for the mechanical effects to wear off, or ignoring them completely.

The times I've been most effectively suppressed in video games has had absolutely nothing to do with any mechanical penalty for near-misses, and everything to do with me being very, very concerned about actually being hit. Most of the time, the game this happened in didn't even have any kind of suppression effect.
 
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Even a minor 'fear' of death in-game can only be accomplished by de-incentivizing death itself--I've always been in favor of longer spawn-to-frontline distances for this reason. When you have to truck it all the way back to the action, a couple deaths send the proper message.

Most people do under-use suppression, it's true, but I think it'd be quite over-used if rewarded.
 
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Even a minor 'fear' of death in-game can only be accomplished by de-incentivizing death itself--I've always been in favor of longer spawn-to-frontline distances for this reason. When you have to truck it all the way back to the action, a couple deaths send the proper message.

Most people do under-use suppression, it's true, but I think it'd be quite over-used if rewarded.

I agree, and I also feel a longer spawn-to-frontline distance adds more fear of death than a longer spawn time, and has other advantages besides that (bigger battlefields).

So in conclusion, I am for increasing spawn-to-frontline distance.
 
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Well, there are two aspects to this.

And second, no amount of suppression mechanics will actually do what suppression does IRL: make you scared to expose yourself.

I think that if being thoroughly suppressed disadvantages a player enough, (I'm imagining an exposed rifleman/MG) he will think "i can't shoot back like this, I'll be killed" and withdraw.


The times I've been most effectively suppressed in video games has had absolutely nothing to do with any mechanical penalty for near-misses, and everything to do with me being very, very concerned about actually being hit. Most of the time, the game this happened in didn't even have any kind of suppression effect.

I do, however, know what you mean here. DH suppression was pretty good for this.

And as it stands, I barely fear artillery at all in RO2. I just stand there waiting for death, or for my blurry grey screen to disappear. Suppression ideally should come from genuine fear, but I don't think that mechanical suppression is purposeless.

Still thinking about genuine fear-of-death, if bullet penetration was more reliable (I imagine you know something about the truth here Pheonix) MGs would be more fearsome, and NOT only when the player is visible. Although they still wouldn't phase prone players out in the open.

Can't tell you how many times I've plugged away at windows on Pavlov's with a PTRS at E-building riflemen/MGs, hoping for bullet penetration to work.
 
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I think that if being thoroughly suppressed disadvantages a player enough, (I'm imagining an exposed rifleman/MG) he will think "i can't shoot back like this, I'll be killed" and withdraw.

Unlikely. The best you might be able to rely on is for them to sit behind cover for the duration of the burst, or move to a slightly different vantage point. There's no reluctance to expose themselves, only a desire to avoid the mechanical penalties. If it's moderately close range (Say, <50m, maybe <75m) then there isn't even any need for that, particularly with an automatic.


I do, however, know what you mean here. DH suppression was pretty good for this.

Not really. From what I saw, it did very little, just the same aim-kick that we (sometimes) get now, and (if you change your settings) a flicker-dim of your screen. Woo. Something that matters for a fraction of a second, and is then gone. Not scary at all.

Still thinking about genuine fear-of-death, if bullet penetration was more reliable (I imagine you know something about the truth here Pheonix) MGs would be more fearsome, and NOT only when the player is visible.

Penetration is one of the things actually working pretty reliably. Possibly too reliably, as penetration depends on the texture you hit, meaning you can often penetrate walls in one direction that can't be penetrated in the other. The antilag mutator handled that, but TWI's implementation doesn't.

If it's brick, or anything similar or tougher, pretty much don't bother. The PTRS can only penetrate about 38cm of brick. The rifle rounds only manage about 23cm. The RO2 design guide has supporting walls at 64cm thick, and non-supporting walls at 32cm. The PTRS will (barely) penetrate thin, non-supporting brick walls, but nothing else can, and nothing is getting through a supporting brick wall.

Amusingly, despite having ~116% more the penetration on vehicles, the PzB784r has the exact same penetration depth on world geometry...

Basically, a brick, concrete, or stone wall can not be penetrated with any infantry weapon. Unless you're shooting the other side, and it is, say, plaster (Hello Barracks).

Fortunately, most of what isn't brick or concrete is either plaster or thin walls of wood, neither of which gives much protection.
 
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Even a minor 'fear' of death in-game can only be accomplished by de-incentivizing death itself--I've always been in favor of longer spawn-to-frontline distances for this reason. When you have to truck it all the way back to the action, a couple deaths send the proper message.
Yep, the death penalty is the proper place to solve this problem. It doesn't matter what kind of artificial suppression mechanics you try to bolt onto the game: you will never get people playing conservatively unless there is a tangible gameplay reason to do so. If reckless play has a reasonable probability of yielding greater payoff than penalty, then reckless play is effectively encouraged by the game, and conservative play is suboptimal. For example, if you're ending the map with half your team's reinforcements left, then you're wasting a useful resource.

Personally, I'd remove all suppression mechanics entirely and focus on harsh death penalties. Spawn timers and placements are easy knobs to tweak, but I also think they dropped the ball when they made a progression system that completely ignores failure. That can potentially be an effective meta-game incentive.
 
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Yep, the death penalty is the proper place to solve this problem. It doesn't matter what kind of artificial suppression mechanics you try to bolt onto the game: you will never get people playing conservatively unless there is a tangible gameplay reason to do so. If reckless play has a reasonable probability of yielding greater payoff than penalty, then reckless play is effectively encouraged by the game, and conservative play is suboptimal. For example, if you're ending the map with half your team's reinforcements left, then you're wasting a useful resource.

Personally, I'd remove all suppression mechanics entirely and focus on harsh death penalties. Spawn timers and placements are easy knobs to tweak, but I also think they dropped the ball when they made a progression system that completely ignores failure. That can potentially be an effective meta-game incentive.

I remember leaping through some impossible hoops to try and stay alive on maps like FestungKurland, KurlandKessel, Kryukovo, Leningrad, Rakowice, Smolensk Stalemate, and especially BEREZINA back during the Ostfront days. Why? Because if you got shot dashing from cover to cover, you were looking at a fifteen second respawn... and a 90-second to five-minute (Berezina) run back to the frontline.

Apartments is where you see the most outlandish, impractical gameplay--repeated suicidal charges with grenades, MG hipfiring rambo behavior, players dashing up and down hallways with only the slightest sense of self-preservation... why? Because a death just means that you have to wait ten seconds to spawn, and six to eight seconds before you're within grenade range of the enemy again. IMO, they should have added a whole rear area for both sides, just to increase the distance from spawn to the capzones.

If the penalty of death is too light, there's no point to hiding in a shellhole for a minute or more waiting for an opportunity to dash to the next bit of cover.

Unless TWI is willing to add a stats system where you lose honor points for reckless behavior (something which might be difficult to design, come to think of it), map design and balance will be the primary method of setting a harsh penalty for deaths. So, if there are any mappers out there, or if any devs are reading this--set spawn times and distances wisely! :)
 
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My favorite respawn timer is "never". Single-life games have a lot going for them, but it does demand an entirely different set of design for objectives and victory conditions to work in a large player count setting. Countdown didn't really try very seriously.

Problem is, lethality of RO2 small arms at range is such that 64-person Countdown probably wouldn't work well no matter how well it was designed...
 
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I have a hard time thinking of any single-life game that doesn't have high weapon lethality...even Counterstrike is far from a bullet-sponge game. I played Rogue Spear for years and its damage model was more punishing than RO's and weapon handling generally far more competent as well. No, the trick with single-life play is in flow design; preventing stagnation or stalemates without cutting games short or accidentally incentivizing death. Countdown's method for the former concern not only doesn't work terribly well, it completely misses the latter two.
 
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I think he's saying that it works right now, just that you're not going to be rewarded in points for it, because it is just as much spamming at nothing/corners for area denial* as it is shooting at someone in particular to get them to keep their head down. If you've managed to spam an area enough they don't go there, that's suppression in itself :D

edit: that or he's advocating shooting-then-aiming like what we all do when we have the ppsh and see someone at close quarters ;)

*co-incidentially why my bolt accuracy is only in the 50-60% range, occasionally shooting stripper clips off at a corner in case someone sticks their head around :p
 
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I actually think suppression needs to be seriously looked at in regards to the way it upsets your aim for you. Having your weapon jerked around by incoming fire seems to me to be both ridiculous and annoying. It seems to be forcing a kind of 'flinch' response from the player to prevent you returning fire, but I think it's unnecessary, as with a proper suppression mechanic, this flinch, or fear response, should be something that I myself initiate in order to survive.

Let me try and explain. At the moment, say I'm aiming out of a window. A machine gun opens fire in my direction but doesn't hit me. Now, I know I am under fire, and in danger, but I remain at the window. I am taking a calculated risk that the machine gunner is laying down fire but isn't necessarily aiming directly at me.

The suppression mechanic kicks in. It jerks my aim around making it impossible to return accurate fire, as well as blurring my vision and inducing bullet cracks. Now, sorry, but this seems silly to me. The game is forcing me to flinch, as if to say "You are under fire! Quick, experience fear!". It feels very forced to me, forbidding me to return fire simply because the game dictates that I should be suppressed, and flinching and jerking gun movement is somehow a symptom of that.

But the thing is, I wasn't scared. I remained at the window for a reason. I was taking a calculated risk. Yet I am still at the mercy of a game mechanic which is dictating that I should be a flinching, nervous mess, unable to hold my gun straight, when in reality, I had realised the danger wasn't immediate and was preparing to calmly line up a return shot.

Instead, Mormegil and teemu92 have summed up what I think should happen...

Jeez, am I the only guy who gets suppressed while on windows by automatic fire?

When the bullets stat hitting the window frame, or punching through the wall, I typically get out of Dodge.

Yeah i agree, when i last played darkest hour the suppression was insane, it actually made me want to jump to prone instantly

...I think the game should suppress you by trying to influence that fear in the first place, not by arbitrarily deciding when you are scared and affecting your aim negatively. I think the effects of incoming bullets should be modelled by loud cracking and ricochet sounds, dust and smoke effects, blurred vision and flashes. Make it feel like someone is firing 800 rounds a minute at you from a machine gun. The suppression then happens naturally - when the world around me starts to explode and turn to hell, I naturally seek cover, stay away from the window, and can't fire back from the virtue of the fact that I'm cowering behind overturned furniture crying.

HOWEVER - if I do decide to take the risk to fire back, then I should be able to. If I calculate the risk, realise the machine gun is firing blind, or that he doesn't know I'm there, I might decide to lean out and take a shot back. At that point, I have overcome the fear, and therefore, having the gun jerked around to indicate "more fear" is pointless. By all means, have suppression affect the things that would make shooting harder by association - perhaps make the breathing quicker so you cant hold your breath for a steady shot, as what happens when you try shooting while tired. But don't just grab the muzzle of the gun and throw it around the screen as if to demand that you feel fear.

In short, the inability to return effective fire should come as the natural consequence of a suppression mechanic that induces fear and forces you to take action to get away from incoming fire. It should not arbitrarily upset your aim simply because someone is firing at you, as this prevents any sort of return fire once the MG opens up. As it stands, it feels like a machine gunner gets rewarded simply for holding the trigger down, rather than making sure his suppressing fire is well coordinated.
 
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