Any solution to the nadespam problem?

[<animal>INSTINCT]

I would agree with you if you are standing up, but if you have dived on the ground there is a lot less of you to be hit by shrapnel although it won't do much with a concussion type explosion and you will likely become a casualty anyway.
Shrapnel is indeed the biggest killer but the vast majority was from artillery, some horrible wounds to be had from 105mm and 150mm shells exploding nearby, I've read accounts of foot long pieces of burning hot shrapnel going through peoples legs who survived it, harsh times.

My point still stands that commonly you won't instantly die from a grenade. Become a casualty sure. I know in the context of HoS a casualty is as good as dead which makes my point a little moot I know.
As an example, when the potato masher was originally introduced the fuse cord protruded from the bottom of the grenade rather than being concealed by a protective cap, this meant that often it would get snagged and explode right against the soldiers body causing terrible wounds often fatal. The point here being that even with a grenade exploding against your skin at your waist soldiers still survived such blasts.

What sort of grenade is being used and in what circumstances is also a factor, a typical potato masher without a fragmentation sleeve being thrown at someone in the open is going to have a small kill radius, indoors it will be far more effective. Alternatively in the open using a defensive frag grenade is a very hazardous business as the potential lethal radius is quite large combined with the huge casualty radius being greater than the distance the grenade can be thrown, making such grenades only suitable for being used when behind solid cover.

The problem with these sorts of gameplay decisions is to get it realistic you have to program individual bits of shrapnel flying about, up close you are bound to be hit but the further away you get the gaps between flying bits of shrapnel get ever bigger. This is all a lot of programming effort though when a simple range calculation=x amount of damage is a hell of a lot simpler. It is with this simplified damage model in mind that I think the lethal range of grenades should be reduced some. It would still be nice to see concussion grenades modeled to be more deadly indoors and a lot less useful in the open whilst the opposite is true of frag grenades which are more useful in the open than indoors where people can get some cover between them and the grenade.

Does anyone remember the predator grenade from the original Aliens vs Predator back in 1998? It actually modeled individual spikes from the grenade giving a proper grenade effect.

Yes, it is true that going prone most definately reduces your potential for injury, something I hope holds true in the game

Also, I had a similar suggestion once involving the fragmentation properties of grenades, where individual fragments would be modeled with power equal roughly to a pistol round. Sadly, it was the general concensus that this would be a HUGE load on the server side...our vidja game technology is just too primitive at this point... maybe they'll do it for RO3:IS2:

 

[ZzDe0]

Is it just my computer or is it really hard to see the grenades after someone throws one? I hope they make them more visible in the ROHOS. That mite not stop the nadespam but it should make grenade deaths less frequent because they'll be easier to spot.

 

[Galslacht]

Reminds me about LyesKrovy back when it didn't have (normal) rifles on russian side. Now generally speaking that's entirely realistic, yet how often you heard someone complaining that russians have unlimited SMGs and bla bla bla?

Oeh, good contextual analogy. That hit the spot.

 

[Galslacht]

Yes, it is true that going prone most definately reduces your potential for injury, something I hope holds true in the game

Also, I had a similar suggestion once involving the fragmentation properties of grenades, where individual fragments would be modeled with power equal roughly to a pistol round. Sadly, it was the general concensus that this would be a HUGE load on the server side...our vidja game technology is just too primitive at this point... maybe they'll do it for RO3:IS2:

There is one game where you could actually see the flying shrapnel of the grenades, its in MoH:AA, but its pure cosmetical.

I stil miss the grenade-shrapnel in each and every game.

 

[Blue Orchestra]

I'm sure somebody has said this before me, but I think the nadespam problem in RO was caused by the fact that the maps were designed for 32 people, and the game supports 50 players. With all maps in HOS being designed for 64 players, I think there will be less of a problem.

 

[Nimsky]

I'm sure somebody has said this before me, but I think the nadespam problem in RO was caused by the fact that the maps were designed for 32 people, and the game supports 50 players. With all maps in HOS being designed for 64 players, I think there will be less of a problem.

No, nadespam has been RO's biggest problem since the mod. Those maps didn't have more than 32 slots and there was still a lot of nadespam. The problem was even worse because grenades had a much larger kill radius.

Ostfront's grenades are a lot better and if you're lucky, you can survive if a grenade lands somewhat close to you. If you dive away from the grenade for example, you expose a smaller part of your body (feet and arms) to the explosion, increasing your chances of survival. I've done that quite a lot of times and it does work. But nadespam is still a problem in RO, in almost all of the maps. A couple of months ago one of my TDNL ArmA 2 buddies bought RO and he loves the game, but he noticed RO's heavy focus on grenades right away.

And yes, the maps will be designed for 64 players, but they will be scaled down for 32 and 16 players so proportionally you will still have the same problem unless they come up with another solution.

It really is about time they get rid of it for good IMO, it's been too many years. It can be quite frustrating. I regularly pay attention to the deathmessages and often about 30% - 50% of the kills are grenade kills. Now some of you might say "Well, grenades were used a lot in Stalingrad, even more than in RO in fact". I'm sure they were used a lot and I've read about the "grenade carriers", but come on. In RO, the first thing a soldier does when he gets to the front lines is to chuck all of his grenades towards a 10 by 10 meter area where he knows the enemy will show up. In fact, the entire team does it, both sides even. And then you have almost 20 grenades going off at the same time. Unless there is a source that confirms that that regularly happened in Stalingrad, I won't believe that nadespam is "realistic".

So what are my solutions for ending nadespam?

1. Bigger maps that have a lot of breathing room. By far the best solution. Think Kriegstadt. Or ZooBerlin. That Pariser Platz map is a great one as well.
2. More realistic weapon switching times (sling rifle on back, take grenade from vest, prime and throw it, weapon rifle)
3. Less accurate grenade throwing
4. A limited pool of grenades (either team-shared or player-based)
5. Making the grenades less powerful

Number 1 is most important, followed by 2. Option 1 alone would already solve 90% of the problem.

I love RO to bits, but getting killed over and over again by grenades isn't fun. I really hope they do something about this in RO2.

 

[Zetsumei]

Good post but you perhaps forgot another point Nimsky, although point 4 is somewhat related to it. People have 2 grenades but are expected to live for 1 or 2 minutes.

After a while players become smart and know that they will likely not be long without any grenades. So they just throw them away at the chance of hitting something. Heck even in public games you even have people shouting over voip to his team mates that they should never die with their grenades still on them.

The clanleader from Core when playing public matches is famous for saying "use the effing nades". There is simply nearly no advantage of keeping your grenades on you.

Another point is that simply getting killed by a grenade from seemingly nowhere isn't fun. Perhaps realistic but it isn't fun. Most kills in the war were probably made by artillery and flying shrapnel, but in a game you generally want to stand a chance against your opponent.

You want to have some sort of control over the outcome when playing a game. You want to see an outcome that is effected by your input so you can learn from it.

 

[Taisenki]

Disagree. In real life, with enough training and practice, you would be able to throw grenades pretty accurately. (Unless you have no hand-eye coordination at all, in which case you probably are going to fail as a soldier).

free aim means skill. you have to work a little harder to be better. free aim isnt random. it means you need a feel for your weapon.

free aim is a great idea. it means theres more skill in grenades. i want to set myself from the rest by being great with grenades!

-

And I'm hurt that this game is only 64 players. I hope there will be modded servers for 128 players...Grenade spam will be more of an issue then but...yes...lets for one make grenades difficult to throw by using free aim! This will automatically improve the situation and no one can argue

"THIS SUCKS"

because everyone is on the same page...it is you that actually suck with free aim. Like most things, learn to play! Everyone will be using free aim. so its fair.

-

Other solutions people have suggested are also good...but making a bigger map to dilute the population will make the game "more" boring. So be careful with that one.

-

As for the input output above my post! Mortars = make some sort of initial smoke so people know its coming! And then they can try and run for cover. lol. Or perhaps the enemy squad leaders can intercept the signals and get a warning...he must then warn his team mates!

 

[DarknRahl]

Good discussion. I like the idea of a bit of excess time to sling your weapon and get a grenade ready as that would encourage you to only break one out when you are having trouble digging someone out and have the luxury of a little time/cover.
However the short lifespan and encouragement to spam your grenades out asap will continue unless there is some limit imposed. If you die and respawn you could respawn with the grenades you had before however if you died without any grenades left you would have to run back to some slightly out of the way place to pick up another grenade or two which has been suggested many times before. This might encourage a bit more thoughtful use of grenades rather than 'get them out as soon as possible because I'll be dead with a full load in a minute anyway'.

 

[Nimsky]

Other solutions people have suggested are also good...but making a bigger map to dilute the population will make the game "more" boring. So be careful with that one.

Play RO-ZooBerlin and RO-PariserPlatz, big maps are far from boring. They solve the nadespam problem (partly become some classes don't have grenades though), and are more rifle-centered. Which is obviously a good thing. I've always thought that RO focuses too much on CQB. Well, the fights for the objectives that is.

 

[Bobdog]

The problem with these sorts of gameplay decisions is to get it realistic you have to program individual bits of shrapnel flying about, up close you are bound to be hit but the further away you get the gaps between flying bits of shrapnel get ever bigger. This is all a lot of programming effort though when a simple range calculation=x amount of damage is a hell of a lot simpler.

It is simpler to use hitscan instead of real ballistics too, but RO uses ballistics anyway

It is with this simplified damage model in mind that I think the lethal range of grenades should be reduced some. It would still be nice to see concussion grenades modeled to be more deadly indoors and a lot less useful in the open whilst the opposite is true of frag grenades which are more useful in the open than indoors where people can get some cover between them and the grenade.

Does anyone remember the predator grenade from the original Aliens vs Predator back in 1998? It actually modeled individual spikes from the grenade giving a proper grenade effect.

IIRC RO the mod had a (simplistic) model of shrapnel in; I don't know what the processing overhead on the servers would be, but if it is realistically possible I wouldn't be surprised to see it ingame.

 

[LemoN]

I've always thought that RO focuses too much on CQB. Well, the fights for the objectives that is.

Same here, and I think this will even increase with HoS.

 

[Nimsky]

Same here, and I think this will even increase with HoS.

I hope not

Would be nice to read a dev's opinion on the nadespam thing.

 

[LemoN]

I hope not

Well, that's what TWI keeps saying.

 

[Nicholas]

Was it realistic for every soldier on the battlefield to carry grenades? Or did only certain soldiers carry them?

 

[Taisenki]

Play RO-ZooBerlin and RO-PariserPlatz, big maps are far from boring. They solve the nadespam problem (partly become some classes don't have grenades though), and are more rifle-centered. Which is obviously a good thing. I've always thought that RO focuses too much on CQB. Well, the fights for the objectives that is.

Idealy. You want big maps and large player counts...


Big maps + not enough players to fill it up is boring.

 

[Floyd]

Well, that's what TWI keeps saying.

While I applaud TW's innovative involvement in the mod scene (Rising Storm) and the mod teams that are gearing up (In Country, Iron Europe), I hope that there are a few good mappers with enough time on their hands left to treat us to a map or two for the "original" HoS. If HoS lacks in some area, then I'd certainly appreciate any effort made by some of those talented folks to fill in the gaps.

 

[Hausfeld]

Was it realistic for every soldier on the battlefield to carry grenades? Or did only certain soldiers carry them?

Yeah, pretty much. In Stalingrad though, squads on both sides would pool up their grenades and issue them to a dedicated thrower, usually the guy who placed in regional shot put or something to that effect.

 

[Tr00per Buzzdee]

I say restrict grenades to special classes like assault troopers.
The average player uses grenade like in Counter-Strike: without using the brain and not mattering the situation.

It always ends in a massive grenade war of random kills and teamkills, no matter how the map is designed.
Players trying to play tactical will be just bombed away.
This is a big weakness of the last game and hopefully will be fixed in the new one.

 

[vonKietz]

I mentioned this in my thread - sling your weapon over your shoulder - look down at your belt/feel around for the grenade - pull the grenade out of your boot/belt/ where ever - unscrew the cap - grip the string - aim - a strong tug on the string, cook if desired - and a nice solid throwing animation - pull out next grenade with the previous process or pull your weapon off your shoulder.

Really that takes some time and it's realistic and I really think that this would prevent the relentless hail of grenades.