Hardly anybody here hates DH. But Hanswurst Ludwig would like you to believe otherwise.
On-topic: yes, nadespam should be reduced.
Any solution to the nadespam problem?
- Thread starter Fedorov
- Start date
Hardly anybody here hates DH. But Hanswurst Ludwig would like you to believe otherwise.
On-topic: yes, nadespam should be reduced.
I don't hate DH, I only think RO is better. :IS2:
Oh noes, that makes you a CoD fanboy right?
Oh noes!! I hate CoD!, and I prefer RO over DH!!, such a contradiction must mean I have a personality disorder! :IS2:
DH is a good mod, but I'm really, really sick of the front they chose... That's why I prefer ROOST (and because of the :IS2: of course ).
).
can you give any evidence for that. For what its worth im pretty active on these forums (as evidenced by my post count
). And have not seen any real hate towards DH as a mod especially not in general. There is hate against certain aspects, some hate for instance the supression system, and a lot of people simply feel that RO is still a superior experience. But actually hating DH is not something you commonly come across here.
I don't play DH for it's front. I play it for how it feels, which in my opinion is better than Ost. Many of you feel something different, that's fine.
can you give any evidence for that. For what its worth im pretty active on these forums (as evidenced by my post count
There is hate against certain aspects, some hate for instance the supression system, and a lot of people simply feel that RO is still a superior experience. But actually hating DH is not something you commonly come across here.
I just say DH is good mod, and i like it.
to the topic i can say, i play RO since Oct.2006 and i never had a big problem with so called "nadespam". It depends on playing style i think.
People will throw nades as long they have nades.
Theres a thing called Manpower...I assume you can toggle this manpower.
Now think about ammo...combination...yummy.
-
1 grenade per person. Maybe 2. However...You keep throwing them...your total grenades for your army depletes. Lets say you have 100 grenades a round. a 30 minute game. Your gonna have to use those grenades wisely now. Otherwise...10 minutes into the game you have no grenades.
scared that 1 person may use all the grenades? set a % per person to use. 100 grenades. 10 people. 10 grenades each maximum. Only 1 or 2 per spawn. 2 grenades for the assault classes perhaps =)
-
This should be another "Toggle" option for servers to dictate. It may not be a problem...
Now think about ammo...combination...yummy.
-
1 grenade per person. Maybe 2. However...You keep throwing them...your total grenades for your army depletes. Lets say you have 100 grenades a round. a 30 minute game. Your gonna have to use those grenades wisely now. Otherwise...10 minutes into the game you have no grenades.
scared that 1 person may use all the grenades? set a % per person to use. 100 grenades. 10 people. 10 grenades each maximum. Only 1 or 2 per spawn. 2 grenades for the assault classes perhaps =)
-
This should be another "Toggle" option for servers to dictate. It may not be a problem...
Last edited:
I play RO since the UT moddays, nadespam became a problem for me in the big retail version. But only on certain maps. It should be acknowledged as an existent problem imho.
I agree. If you rush into the first cap first wave of the round you most likely die by a nade, lol
I play more K98 or strelok, taking sure shots from behind
Last edited:
Nadespam is extremely realistic as far as the battles in Stalingrad go, I've read accounts of Russians heading into buildings with nothing but grenades and an entrenchment tool. However it doesn't always make for fun gameplay.
Personally I've always found grenades far too lethal in games. Unless you are within a meter or two it's not likely to be instantly lethal. You'll get covered in shrapnel and your fighting ability will be impaired but you aren't going to be blown to bits. When you include poorly made grenades lethality gets even worse, in 'Steel My Soldier's Hearts' (a fantastic book about a US infantry company in Vietnam) there was an attack on a forward base where an American had a grenade go off virtually at his feet but had not a scratch to show for it as the explosion seems to have been highly uneven and all went in the opposite direction, no doubt due to some flaw creating a weakness on the other side of the grenade. I think making grenades less lethal would be a step in the right direction.
Personally I've always found grenades far too lethal in games. Unless you are within a meter or two it's not likely to be instantly lethal. You'll get covered in shrapnel and your fighting ability will be impaired but you aren't going to be blown to bits. When you include poorly made grenades lethality gets even worse, in 'Steel My Soldier's Hearts' (a fantastic book about a US infantry company in Vietnam) there was an attack on a forward base where an American had a grenade go off virtually at his feet but had not a scratch to show for it as the explosion seems to have been highly uneven and all went in the opposite direction, no doubt due to some flaw creating a weakness on the other side of the grenade. I think making grenades less lethal would be a step in the right direction.
I'm sorry but this is just flat out wrong. The grenades of the time had lethal radiuses of anywhere from 3 to 6 meters. Thats anywhere up to about 20 feet. Can you imagine placing a nade on the ground, then walking the height of 2 NBA basketball hoops away, having the nade go off?
Shrapnel is HIGHLY lethal, so much so that it was the main cause of casualties in ww2, on ALL fronts. If you have multiple pieces of metal embedded several inches inside your body, you are not going to get up and fight again. You are probably going to go into shock if you're lucky.
Have you ever been stabbed? It hurts, a LOT. Now imagine getting stabbed numerous times, and a knife being left in each wound... that's a grenade... ouch
Now if you could just add proper first aid, hospital system, people dying during treatment, surgery, bleeding out or so while they just got wounded and for the next few hours they were carried away and were not engaged in any active combat to a game, be my guest. The real problem with the lethality of grenades in game is this: there are no real 'wounds' that would incapaciate you, as what would make your effectively incapaciated and would require proper medical attension while you're still far from being dead = dead in a game.
Now with total casualties theoretically speaking direct fire is extremely inefficient under combat conditions when considering how much bullets are shot before anything even hits 'properly', and even in those cases it's rare for a person to die instantly unless it was hit in head, heart or lugns or the person got basically caught in middle of MG\SMG burst or got hit by rifles repeatedly in few seconds. Even that may not always mean necessarily the person is 'dead', but the odds for survival are also nonexistant. Indirect fire is diffrent animal in its own ways when it comes to casualties, as even it has the problem that it doesn't really kill most of its victims instantly.
Slightly reduced grenade lethality would simply be a question of overall results vs small details, both which are necessary but the latter has the problem of becoming extremely twisted for gameplay experience if it is not handled with caution. Old Battlefront.com post about US squad using (live, until they got raped by bullets) cows as a meatshield to close in on MG42 and killed the crew is one example, that it happened, it is documented, it had significant impact on the battle and then we can go and ask this question: what if RO:HoS would allow (just for the sake of example) so that if there are some cows avaible in the map and player could use them as a cover, how often they would try to exploit it to the point the gameplay in certain maps would represent Red Orchestra : Heroes of Cowslayers? Basically always, and that would give the game really twisted focus despite having nice small detail as it's highly exploitable in really stupid way as there are no other important factors to consider which would be present IRL.
Edit: as much as that cow example has little to do with grenades, I could use RO:Ost artillery as another example: it is simply way too accurate for anything other than mortars (and even then we need to question the lack of Forward Observer, but the artillery is abstracted after all). Now while it rarely raised any concerns as people had no issues with it, it is one of those things that were purposedly made more realistic for more reasonable gameplay without taking some crucial element off from the game. Anything larger - depending what settings the mapper put on the map - and quite frankly the rough radius should be tripled or even quadrupled due lack of FO, but that would cause the problem that it would be very ineffective in its supposed job, instead it would be lovely tool for accidental teamkills. Going with the same idea, slighlty reducing grenade's AoE in hoes could probably give more reasonable results in both ways.
Last edited:
See now I'm thinking about the original Kiev (I think) map, narrow streets, not many buildings you could enter and only 2 routes to the objectives.
And this was back in the day when the F1 had a lethal radius (if you were unlucky enough to catch some shrapnel) of well over 20 meters.
And this was back in the day when the F1 had a lethal radius (if you were unlucky enough to catch some shrapnel) of well over 20 meters.
I would agree with you if you are standing up, but if you have dived on the ground there is a lot less of you to be hit by shrapnel although it won't do much with a concussion type explosion and you will likely become a casualty anyway.
Shrapnel is indeed the biggest killer but the vast majority was from artillery, some horrible wounds to be had from 105mm and 150mm shells exploding nearby, I've read accounts of foot long pieces of burning hot shrapnel going through peoples legs who survived it, harsh times.
My point still stands that commonly you won't instantly die from a grenade. Become a casualty sure. I know in the context of HoS a casualty is as good as dead which makes my point a little moot I know.
As an example, when the potato masher was originally introduced the fuse cord protruded from the bottom of the grenade rather than being concealed by a protective cap, this meant that often it would get snagged and explode right against the soldiers body causing terrible wounds often fatal. The point here being that even with a grenade exploding against your skin at your waist soldiers still survived such blasts.
What sort of grenade is being used and in what circumstances is also a factor, a typical potato masher without a fragmentation sleeve being thrown at someone in the open is going to have a small kill radius, indoors it will be far more effective. Alternatively in the open using a defensive frag grenade is a very hazardous business as the potential lethal radius is quite large combined with the huge casualty radius being greater than the distance the grenade can be thrown, making such grenades only suitable for being used when behind solid cover.
The problem with these sorts of gameplay decisions is to get it realistic you have to program individual bits of shrapnel flying about, up close you are bound to be hit but the further away you get the gaps between flying bits of shrapnel get ever bigger. This is all a lot of programming effort though when a simple range calculation=x amount of damage is a hell of a lot simpler. It is with this simplified damage model in mind that I think the lethal range of grenades should be reduced some. It would still be nice to see concussion grenades modeled to be more deadly indoors and a lot less useful in the open whilst the opposite is true of frag grenades which are more useful in the open than indoors where people can get some cover between them and the grenade.
Does anyone remember the predator grenade from the original Aliens vs Predator back in 1998? It actually modeled individual spikes from the grenade giving a proper grenade effect.
Might I point out that nadespam is much, MUCH less of a problem in DH on the good maps (Foy, Cheneux, Bois Jacques, LaGleize, Noville, Stoumont, Stavelot)....basically all the Battle of the Bulge maps, all made by schutzesepp too with the exception of Bois and Noville, because the maps are far less "choke pointy". They're still linear of course, but there tends to be a lot less of it because it's open area-building-open area-building-open area-building, rather than narrow street-building-narrow-street-building-narrow street-building. I don't like how severely they nerfed the nades though, basically unless you're within 5 feet of it you don't die. I do LOVE the suppression though.
I'm not suggesting that TWI make all the maps of that style though, Stalingrad was pure urban warfare carnage. (at least the maps within the city)
Personally I think it's retarded to try to "take out nadespam". Guess what, STALINGRAD WAS A NADE SPAMFEST. I think I posted this in here already but Soviet doctrine was to throw a grenade into EVERY room even SUSPECTED of having any Germans in it before entering. What's that you say? They threw blind nades in RL? Yes they did.
I say you give 0 nades to MGers and snipers, 1 nade to riflemen, 2 nades to assault classes, and 3 or even 4 nades to "elite/veteran" assault classes.
I'm not suggesting that TWI make all the maps of that style though, Stalingrad was pure urban warfare carnage. (at least the maps within the city)
Personally I think it's retarded to try to "take out nadespam". Guess what, STALINGRAD WAS A NADE SPAMFEST. I think I posted this in here already but Soviet doctrine was to throw a grenade into EVERY room even SUSPECTED of having any Germans in it before entering. What's that you say? They threw blind nades in RL? Yes they did
.I say you give 0 nades to MGers and snipers, 1 nade to riflemen, 2 nades to assault classes, and 3 or even 4 nades to "elite/veteran" assault classes.
Last edited:
Most DH maps were designed for 40+ players which already makes nadespam in its own ways less annoying, compared to most RO maps which are basically overcrowded on 50p servers as the maps weren't designed for that. There's plenty of custom maps for RO aswell in which nadespam is barely noticable so to speak.
NoxNoctum said:
Putting the whole joke aside, nadespam is realistic for diffrent reasons when you consider IRL situation, but since the concept of death in video games is just that you'll reappear sooner or later as angry ghost who materialised and recycles the information quite well - or alternatively we need to add runner class and make a system like this: everybody's 1st spawn will have grenades, after that you're dependant on the runner. Not that it would also be realistic in its own ways, but highly immersive for the runner to run back'n forth between the resupply point and to resupply other players.
(and obviously that is not a serious suggestion)
Reminds me about LyesKrovy back when it didn't have (normal) rifles on russian side. Now generally speaking that's entirely realistic, yet how often you heard someone complaining that russians have unlimited SMGs and bla bla bla?
Not that I see a real reason to try and eliminate nade spam if it exists at all, but how about having grenades as pickups in spawn? Everyone can hold one or two grenades max, and by the spawn area is a large crate that starts off with a maximum of either 8-16, 16-32 or 32-64 grenades, which regenerates slowly.
Last edited: