Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis, similar to what I said, it would be kind of realistic too.
Any solution to the nadespam problem?
- Thread starter Fedorov
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Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis, similar to what I said, it would be kind of realistic too.
Just have a finite amount of grenades, shared by the whole team, and when they run out, they run out. Pretty much exactly like the reinforcement system.
Very much in favour of this idea, although if, for example, players where oblivious to team-play, i.e going for kills over objectives then I can imagine the teams supply of grenades would deplete very quickly leaving those who have reserved their grenades to pay the price of there comrades actions.
Sturm
It will never be possible to come up with a system (for any aspect of the game) that makes it impossible for retards to be a detriment to their team, unfortunately.
Individual reinforcements and stocks, are a good push in the right direction imo. Sure people can be retards still, but at least they only have themselves with it rather than the entire team.
One player could easily spawn with 2 grenades every time while another player tries to save it by picking 0 grenades. In the end all the cautious players got no grenades left as everybody else used it all up.
Because of this in future games the cautious players will just use 2 grenades all the time as well (why save if others deplete it?) resulting in that everybody starts with all nades and then at some point halfway the entire team runs out. Its a system that will automatically lead to unstable behavior, unless there is someone like a leader that players actually listen to when he's saying that people should stop wasting nades.
If everybody got their own pool of grenades for instance (or reinforcements for that matter) a player can decide to save grenades, while isn't restricted to not use grenades early on. It imposes the resource management upon every individual player, rather than on a manager that exists in real life but is simply missing in the game.
The resource management layer that can be found in the real army and in for instance clanplay, realism unit play and iron crescendo is missing in public play. Leading that people will just try to grab all the stock there with as thought that otherwise someone else will do it in his stead. For that reason letting every player individually manage his share leads to more balanced results.
If people do not act as a real team or group, but are just a bunch of random individuals that do not know each other. They will not trust that others will use everything conservatively.
Which is why I think that pools of reinforcements or weaponry shared among a team only work in a controlled environment like playing on a private server with people you know.
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Solving an issue != adding ridiculous features that makes the game more random and less fun. You could say that to about every 2nd/3rd idea here(like 30sec bandaging).
Do you seriously believe nade spammers would care if their nade lands 1m to the left or right? AFAIK the purpose of nade spamming is to throw the grenade randomly into enemy territory, so it wouldn't matter if accuracy is decreased or not. Free-aim would take away much of the control and so much of the fun. If I want to throw a grenade into a window to take out an MG, but the grenade misses and drops down to kill me, that's not much more realistic either and definitely less fun.
Solution for close quarters nadespam = simply making less grenades available, either per classes or randomly.
And again, restricting grenade-throwing to staying on ground? Why? Why would you take away control from the players. If it's really an issue then just make sure the throwing range is same as when running & throwing.
I expected that would be a problem, but how come a small random variable makes game less fun, especially when it's somewhat minor? Shooting with an SMG in RO beyond certain range is already random (but oh noes, it's realistic so this argument is invalid), so does that make using SMG less fun?
DraKon2k said:
No I do not. Quite frankly even limiting grenades would not stop nadespam as people would still spam them if they want, in that case it would just make it more of a gamble do you even want to use grenades, which hypothetically would result into a question like this: is it fun that you ran out of grenades during the last spawn and notice there's a room with MG, sniper and full of people and you're only armed with a rifle next to you? Realistic yes, fun? Not for many.
As quite interesting comparasion in RnL (atleast in alpha 4, haven't played the latest version) there was virtually no nadespam at all, despite the fact you could basically carry up to three (four?) grenades if you just picked your loadout well. Whether it was caused by that small free-aim or certain other things is a good question, but even then it was not impossible to throw quite accurate grenade at longer ranges and still score a "hit".
DraKon2k said:
Why not introduce bunnyhopping? After all, it's about player control and freedom. Now obviously saying this one argues about "realism", but so is that suggestion. Your solution about jumping not affecting the distance is one way to fix that issue.
Now despite being **** I do understand your point, and in own ways limiting grenades could be quite good way to do it as it gives positive results in few ways, even when it would also present several issues that would be quite annoying from typical player's point of view.
Yeah I was a bit too provocative in my formulations lol. As for RnL, personally I think that it's because maps were so big, thus offering many many different ways of getting to your objective, wheras in RO it's pretty predictable on most maps imo.
My idea is that there is a limited nade pool per... wave. Lets say there is a team of 18vs18, each team gets 7-10 nades, split up is random, so you could be able to get a maximum of 3 nades, while others don't get any. This seems quite realistic, some will be slower while carrying grenades other a bit quicker, also it prevents from nade-spamming (which is in fact the problem we try to solve) and maybe used in clanwars.
throwing it not so far maybe helps it.
Be smarter then your enemy, expect the nade, have the first shot.
Be smarter then your enemy, expect the nade, have the first shot.
No. Not ever. Just saying, if you can't balance realistic game, then you don't make a realistic game. Realistic power of weapons can always be countered by other means than unrealistic area effect reductions/power reductions.
Point one sounds useful, but it isnt, in a game like DoD: Source (which has that system) it doesnt work as intended, people will just prime and cook their grenades every time.
Point two sounds very good to me.
Point three is very viable and easy to code
I vote for 2 and 3! Nadespam has to be dealt with!
Gameplay in RO suffers too much from the nadespam, I hope TWI takes the nadespam into account.
Gameplay must not suffer too much due to realism.
You could argue quite well that the basis of the game itself (repeated conflict over a relatively small area of land so much so that the soldiers know every knook and cranny) is unrealistic, therefore the implementation of the grenades could be changed to reflect the issues it brings to gameplay.
But I agree with Oldih, the grenade throw/aim system just needs to be made a little more variable/flexible with regards power of throw - a small amount of freeaim, coupled with accuracy penalties for longer/jump throws etc.
Anything more intrusive than that would be counter to TWI's philosophy.
But I agree with Oldih, the grenade throw/aim system just needs to be made a little more variable/flexible with regards power of throw - a small amount of freeaim, coupled with accuracy penalties for longer/jump throws etc.
Anything more intrusive than that would be counter to TWI's philosophy.
But tbh I think that they way it is in RO aiming with nades is "difficult"(not that I find it difficult but you know what i mean) enough because you dont through the nade where your crosshair points it but you only have the hand for orientation and I think I remember that it took me quite a while to figure out how to throw properly.
Nadespam problem? Since when was nadespam a problem? The way I see it, the problem is you spending too much time in the grenade kill zone. If you're far away enough from the enemy, they can't throw a grenade far enough to kill you. If you're very close to the enemy, you should be engaging him in close quarters, not waiting for him to throw a grenade at your feet. And if you are anywhere in between, then you should get closer/farther away to the enemy as quickly as possible! Otherwise, if you are in a situation in which you cannot easily close in with an enemy, or you don't have a line of sight with the enemy from far away, like if you are in a trench network, then that is the perfect situation for which grenades should be used as the best weapon to defeat the enemy. Why is this then a problem?
Rarely do I get killed by a grenade and think, wow, grenade spam. Occasionally, I do think that. Most of the time though, I think, I had that coming or I took the risk by running into this field here where I know it is raining grenades. See what I'm saying?
Rarely do I get killed by a grenade and think, wow, grenade spam. Occasionally, I do think that. Most of the time though, I think, I had that coming or I took the risk by running into this field here where I know it is raining grenades. See what I'm saying?
Now if you can just even take an educated guess - since the grenade will be "launched" at the centre of your screen and is fixed to it 99.9%, rest 0.01% seems to slightly go towards left - where's the centre, after couple of throws it becomes very easy to throw grenades with basically superior accuracy as long as you just get used to the trajectory. It took only few days after RO was released back in 2006 and I could already toss grenades inside the windows in Danzig from middle of the bridge(s), or inside the trenches in Basovka near the rocks straight towards the trenches from the german spawn. Jumpthrow made the latter more than possible and quite easy thing to do.
So how is (almost) 100% fixed-to-middle-of-your-screen aim that difficult? Trajectory becomes the only real issue once you realise that, and it takes most few days of tossing grenades to get used to the rough trajectory, add few months or a year and you have extremely high rate of being able to throw grenades both ridicuously far and with very ridicuously high, superior accuracy.
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Gameplay suffers because everyone has 2 grenades and everyone respawns.
Which is not realistic.
If you die by a nade youre just to close to the enemy! Everybody knows the maps and to place nades, in real war you be there the first time and dont know the area.
Maybe im not the roomcleaning guy, i like to shoot over longer distances.
Maybe im not the roomcleaning guy, i like to shoot over longer distances.
A finite nade pool feels strange to me if it's only the nades which have a finite stockpile. To be exact everything has to run low, ammo and of course weapons too. So when we come to the "10 yard line", we go out there and punch each other to death.
Seriously I don't believe it's a solution to have nades being limited or making them less lethal by reducing their blast radius. We all know we will be fighting inside buildings and we need to clear lots of rooms. If a nade doesn't kill anyone when thrown in a standard sized room this will get very annoying. The nade spam actually comes from what? The players all know where the enemy will rush in and it's always the same attack paths that are run. Why? The maps mostly give you 2-3 ways. It's very easy to remember those which are used the most and then throw a nade there. If a map gave you around +6 ways to run to a certain objective the nade spam victims count would decrease by far. But have you ever thought of that nadespam is a very vital part in battle? When I'm throwing a nade somewhere it's mainly for making sure that no one is coming that way. So nade throwing is part of keeping the enemy out of the objective. Taking this defensive power away might result in rush rounds which last about 10min each.
Seriously I don't believe it's a solution to have nades being limited or making them less lethal by reducing their blast radius. We all know we will be fighting inside buildings and we need to clear lots of rooms. If a nade doesn't kill anyone when thrown in a standard sized room this will get very annoying. The nade spam actually comes from what? The players all know where the enemy will rush in and it's always the same attack paths that are run. Why? The maps mostly give you 2-3 ways. It's very easy to remember those which are used the most and then throw a nade there. If a map gave you around +6 ways to run to a certain objective the nade spam victims count would decrease by far. But have you ever thought of that nadespam is a very vital part in battle? When I'm throwing a nade somewhere it's mainly for making sure that no one is coming that way. So nade throwing is part of keeping the enemy out of the objective. Taking this defensive power away might result in rush rounds which last about 10min each.