Any Berserkers, Firebugs, or Demolitions here?

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Lewt

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 5, 2010
404
112
0
I'm seriously lost as to why some people consider Berserker to be a 'good' or effective perk. As far as I can tell, anything it can do, another class can do better. Aside from melee being somewhat fun in earlier waves, it feels horribly unbalanced once ranged enemies come into play - which makes lone wolfing the game difficult. And if you say that your team's Sharpshooter helps out and deals with those for you.. then what are you doing to help him, that another class couldn't do? Being a meat shield?

One could apply these sort of arguments to other perks like firebug, where he can kill small enemies (which Commando excels at) but not big ones (Commando also seems better at this) like the Fleshpound or Scrake.

Demo? Deals with groups of small enemies and sets up traps, which is all well and good. Although I'd rather have a Commando or a 9mm/handcannon Sharpshooter at my back mowing down all the clots, crawlers, and gorefasts than a demo who needs multiple shots for the latter (assuming his nades land perfectly in a group of extremely tightly grouped specimens, and doesn't blind himself or others with smoke). Even a Support Specialist can take out hordes with a few well placed shots of the pump action, or the hunting shotty with its alt fire.

Not trying to convince people that these perks are terrible and should never be used, however, rather wanting to be convinced that these are worthwhile. Honestly these seem like perks used for having fun on easier difficulties, or with little hope of success even with good players. I am obviously extremely biased but would like to hear other opinions.
 

Zeron

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 30, 2010
489
113
0
Somewhere Over The Rainbow...
It's all a matter of playstyle. Some people don't like playing commando or even support but love firebug and zerker. Every perk has its own strengths and weaknesses, and there shouldn't be one perk that trumps all.(except there is right now due to TWI being too busy with RO:HOS, sigh)

You might not see a reason to play these perks, but others do. They do it for fun and for a change of pace since every perk is different. My favorite perk is firebug, but sadly i can't play it because it's too weak on suicidal at the moment.
 

Nubbers

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 27, 2009
111
36
0
AZ, USA
My favorite perk is firebug, but sadly i can't play it because it's too weak on suicidal at the moment.

I do believe that is his point, basically. My favorite perk is berserker, but sadly I can't play it because it's too weak on suicidal at the moment.
 

Zeron

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 30, 2010
489
113
0
Somewhere Over The Rainbow...
I do believe that is his point, basically. My favorite perk is berserker, but sadly I can't play it because it's too weak on suicidal at the moment.


Well, not everyone plays suicidal, i'd say about 75% of the KF population plays normal, and firebug and zerker work fine there. Just for those of us with all level 6 perks can't play our favorites because they're too weak. Sigh.
 

SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,815
804
0
Looks like someone fails to see how overpowered the Commando and Sharpshooter are.
 

Johnny86

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 8, 2010
85
8
0
The way I see it, the "weaker" classes (i.e. Firebug, Zerk, Demo) are a good example of how "good" any given perk should be. Playing these classes on suicidal is just that....... suicidal, and thats the way I like it.

The problem for me is that the other classes (i.e. SS, Support, Medic) are simply too good. These perks are capable of dominating suicidal, which in my opinion, makes little sense. If you know anyone who claims "suicidal is too easy" ask them which perks they use. I'm certain they will mention at least one of the classes above.

Now, you want a reason too use the "weaker" classes? Truth is, there isn't one. My reasons for using these classes are much like what Zeron has already said:

They're great for a challenge
They're good for mixing things up
and There Fun!
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
0
California
I would have to disagree with berserker being a terrible perk on suicidal. A level 6 zerker with a katana can 1 shot everything up to a scrake on a 6 man suicidal game, and even scrakes can be taken out with 3 alt fire axe heads. Compare that to a commando who can't even 1 shot a gorefast on a 4 man suicidal game with his best weapon, the SCAR (head shots leave a wandering gorefast with a sliver of health). Berserker has the tools and perk bonuses to deal with every specimen, even on suicidal. It just has a very high skill ceiling as your dodging skills and situational awareness have to be near perfect to avoid damage.

I've played a couple of games with Japanese players over on the JP servers and they mostly all play medic or zerker on suicidal. They're method of taking down fps is to melee it, no joke. The fp's target goes for quick strikes, dodging the fp's attacks while the rest of the team clears a path for him.

YouTube - Killing Floor Meleeing FP's on Suicidal
YouTube - Killing Floor - Meleeing a Fleshpound on Suicidal
 

Phada

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 24, 2010
190
62
0
France
phada.2ya.com
Aside from melee being somewhat fun in earlier waves, it feels horribly unbalanced once ranged enemies come into play - which makes lone wolfing the game difficult.
You speak about unbalance and ramboing, no offense but you must learn to play.

Berserker is very powerful if well played.
You need to quick switch to a ranged weapon for crawlers, like a ss need to switch to crossbow for scrake/fp.
Open areas are very bad obviously because of the range, always try to wait the sirens/husks hidden in a corner.

The only prob is that class is situational, and it's a bit the same with demo, you can only play it well on some spots in some maps.

Demo/firebug are annoying most of the time because of the huge visibility nerf.
A good berzerker can hold a position like a commando/support/ss, but not anywhere because you need more space to fight and fall back.

@Johnny86
You can play berzerker/demo on suicidal with no problem, but firebug doesn't have enough stopping power. (well you can still play firebug on suicidal but you will most of the time only bother your teammates)
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
I play Firebug alot. True it isn't a great perk for soloing, but remember that isn't the point of KF. Even on Suicidal, played properly, it is a very useful perk.

Quite simply the Firebug has a number of benefits that I could write a massive essay on, but I'll just bullet them here: -

- The firebug can cut through a big group of enemies better than any other perk in the game. Alot of times, weaker specimens will serve as a meat shield formore dangerous specimens, like Sirens and Gorefasts. The firebugs Flamethrower can go through specimens and ignite the entire group ensuring these speicmens are either wounded or killed outright.
- The "crisp up" effect will slow down and confuse any specimen that has been burning for a few seconds (Other than Husk or Fleshpound), so often igniting Bloats, Gorefasts, Sirens and even Scrakes will buy you and/or your team more time to kill the specimen.
- Firebugs don't have to worry about headshots for their damage, so can aimfor the body. As well as making targetting easy, the firebug can easily swap his aim to low down crawlers and return to his other targets without accuracy being an issue.
- Firebugs are resistant/immune to fire damage and can distract Husks easily, and survive their own nades.
- Their nades don't damage doors so bombing a group huddled at the door it very effective.

Use hit and run tactics for the Firebug, and never use sustained fire unless absolutely neccessary, even in suicidal. Regular pips of damage will be just as efficient and will conserve alot more ammo. Burn out and Crisp up are your friends.

And for all you nay sayers about the Firebug being able to handle itself -
http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/92199623-4.jpg
:)
 
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beerhead

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 28, 2009
121
8
0
well not playing much anymore , but all 3 perks are my favorites ..
1.berserker 2. firebug ,and than demo

Berserker it self is beast and once you start playing it and learn all the tricks you will see how awesome the perk is. When i used to played with friends, we used to finish lots of maps on suicidal as 6 berserkers, even sliced patriarch with katanas many many times(suicidal).Just care xbow for wave 7 up to deal with FP's if you play in pub game and you're not sure if that/those SharpShooter/s on your team is/are able to kill them .Basically just keep moving ,be aware of all zeds coming your way and if husks sirens come/shoots at you just hide behind corner, let them come and when they pop out from that corner, slice them and start moving again
Also the beauty of a zerker is that you can level multiple perks if you want/need to .Just buy katana,bullpup for stalkers and M79 - this way you can level 4 perks "at same time" while playing
katana to level zerker,bullpup to level commando,M79 to level demo and i used to use a lot 9mm for crawlers ,so headshots with 9 mm and you also leveling sharpshooter

Firebug is tank and his only enemy in waves is FP .Don't hose the zeds ,use bursts , have katana to deal with scrakes and at wave 7 up buy pipes and land those pipes only if you see FP coming your way. Again, 6 ok firebugs can beat suicidal without sweat

if you want to play firebug ,just choose zerker for first wave,so at trader time you can buy the katana for cheap price than switch to firebug buy flamethrower and you good for rest of the game (if you don't die)
both of these don't need much money either for "fancy weapons" ,just refill ammo and repair armor

Demo ,well the perk is good ,only if the guy playing it is good and knows where and when to shoot ,also as demo you need good teammate to stick with you and kill those single targets coming your way so you don't need to deal with those and can focus on the squads(well don't "need to" ,but it helps a lot).And i rather have one good demo guy than 5 bad sharphooters on the team i'm playing with.
Also the Demo is really fun to play too on open maps ,just line up the zeds,once they are in line start running in circle so they make a big squad, run up to them lay down pipebomb run away and let them step on it (you can manage to kill 10-20 zeds with single pipe that way on map like Farm :D )

Well this is my personal opinion on these perks and probably the majority ppl on these forums will disagree (don't really care), but all these perks are very ,very fun to play while are very usefull (suicidal included) ,
i really never played other perks than these 3 ,
tried to play the other perks ,but got bored to camp a spot and do "ratatatatata" run to the trader and do "ratatatata" again.
 
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Johnny86

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 8, 2010
85
8
0
@Scary Ghost
Alot of people don't know that dropping FP's is an easy task for a good zerk, but it is very situational.

1. The FP needs to be focused on you.
2. You can't do a lot of dmg at once or you'll rage him
3. You need quite a large area to run and avoid his attacks
4. You need to be cautious of other trash zeds

On a side note, the axe is great for dropping FPs do to its higher single strike dmg and its higher Headshot modifier (compared to Katana). Also, use the standard attack because the alt-attack rages him.

The problem with this tactic is that no one knows about it, so a team mate will often shoot the FP (trying to help you) and end up raging it.

Also, that was a 2-man suicidal FP if I'm not mistaken, which I think has less head health than a 6-man hard FP.

@Phada
It's true, you can play Demo and Zerk on suicidal but not everyone can. What I'm trying to say is that it is difficult for someone who plays SS all the time and doesn't know how to use other perks very well yet. I see Zerks on suicidal running for a scrake blindly ignoring the 3 crawlers and 2 gorefasts right behind it. And most of the Demos I see just end up blowing themselves up. These perks certainlly can hold there own on suicidal, but they need more practice and effort than other classes.
 

comaryu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 31, 2010
85
17
0
DxB
The thing is, KF isn't really all that "balanced".

The perk system is suppose to be just like those in online role-playing games.
For example a damage dealer and a healer.

Damage dealer has (+) high damage ; but (-) low armor/health
Healer has (+) obviously, heals ; but (-) no damage

Add them together, and u got an even more "effecient" way of dealing with mobs. Since their "strengths" cover up for their "weaknesses"
And this a simple example of "co-op" gameplay.

This applies the same way in KF, however, some perks have bonuses or weapons that allow them to make up for their own "weaknesses" therefore has "balance issues"

As KF is right now, True, other perks shine more in comparison to zerks,firebugs and demo, but KF is suppose to be a "coop game" not a competition to see whose got the most kills.

As to the examples you've given in your OP,

Zerkers don't need ammo, a good perk to start with when you join or if you die at the latter waves and have no money to support yourself.
Zerkers are very flexible in open maps unlike other perks, when ranged zeds come, you can always carry a backup wep.

Flamers if used correctly, are ammo efficient, dont need to reload, easy to aim with since headshots dont count, DoT effect + its ability to act as a damage multiplier when other perks are involved, are immune to fire.
Flamers are DoT crowd control peeps, most effective and efficient when a mob takes time to get to you. An example is Playing the "roaming game" in kf-farm, usually lining up a whole bunch maybe 20-40, one tap on your mousebutton, and its a flame train :D

Demo, crowd control crowd control crowd control.......need i say more?
Is a commando or a sharpshooter or a support spec gona be effecient enough, taking out a "MOB" of lets say 25-40 coming in at once?
Unless you're pro to shoot as a mando/sharpie 25-40 headshots in a row, + shoot a few more because some zeds tank the other shots due to "bleeding out"
or as a support, wasting shells on a mob? accompanied with expensive ammo, horrible reload time and slow rate of fire.
won't one shot from an m79 be more "faster, effecient and economic" than spraying a ****load of bullets? and whats more, an fp comes in while you're reloading and have no room to kite?
Crowd control my friend.

All perks can do well in suicidal, all perks can solo suicidal. As many have stated, its a matter of prefference/playstyle. However, if you don't see how these perks shine, i can't help but agree with others, than you may not played these perks to such an extent where you fully understand their potential.

Cuz tbh, even if other perks can do a better job, these perks aren't weak...at all.
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
0
California
@Johnny86

Yeah, 2 man suicidal fp has less head hp than a 6 man hard fp. The videos were more to illustrate that it is possible for a zerker (or medic) to take out an fp w/o the use of an xbow. But as I mentioned, the few JP players I run with do this all the time and the other teammates help out by clearing off the lesser specimens. Or if they don't have the room to melee, they'll pop the FP with 1 or 2 LAR head shots, break line of sight and attempt to find a better place to re-engage it.
 

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Well, I loooooove demo. It has amazing power but requires some self-control.

Demolitions has the ability to not only kill hordes, but do so near instaneously. Support could do this........unless they are out of range. The demo perk is capable of long-range destruction large amounts of zeds quickly. And, while the horde flanking your team might make it if a SCAR has to shoot them 1-by-1, a demo can destroy them all in a single, well-placed shot. And if some survive, they are stunned, further delaying the horde.

Of course, this all requires very careful judgement and planning in order to spare your team the smoke and pain, but I learned that in the feild, in suicidal and FF servers.

Of course, the demo's immense power (in the right hands) has some serious drawbacks. Inability for close-range combat, siren screams, and scrakes in particular. But a good team, awareness of your surroundings, and accuracy with a 9mm can help with that.

Another major Demo goodie is pipes. While they can do more harm than good if placed without reason, pipes allow for very serious damage to both hordes and larger specimens. Their cheap cost and serious power allow for good players to construct traps, and to secure flanks.

The Demo has some very serious power behind it. But ignorance of how to use it and general lack of etiquette unfortuntaley make the perk look bad.
 

SIL

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
29
6
0
I feel like I need to put a post on this.

I'm a frequent firebug. We've honestly got nothing we can do against the bigger specimens. We can irritate a scrake, but anything above a bloat is a waste of fuel for the most part.

As far as those berserker videos go. Fleshpounds have an enrage timer for distance of chase and damage. If you break the damage or distance barrier, then they enrage and come like a freight train. HOWEVER, the distance timer can be reset by 2 things. 1) Breaking Line of Sight. (This may also break the FP's fixate on you as the target). 2) Getting swung at. The berserker / Zerdic in the linked videos do exactly that, they get swung at and it resets the distance enrage timer.

This is the only reason they're being moderately successful. However, with how much of a blind eye they're turning to the other specimens, it's amazing they survive as long as they do. Also, on 6-man, this would take 10 years to down one as a head-melee could easily enrage them, so you're avoiding it.
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
I'm a frequent firebug. We've honestly got nothing we can do against the bigger specimens. We can irritate a scrake, but anything above a bloat is a waste of fuel for the most part.

Dude try igniting a Scrake when it comes into sight just as a Support or Commando goes to unload into. The Crisp up stun and slow down will actually help them alot. Doesn 't take much, literally just a pip to ignite them :)

Sirens are easy pickings, and Husks are pretty much target practise for you with your alternative weapons. Only one you are actually BAD against is the FP... which tbh shows the Firebug is perfectly well balanced as he is :)
 
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timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dude try igniting a Scrake when it comes into sight just as a Support or Commando goes to unload into. The Crisp up stun and slow down will actually help them alot. Doesn 't take much, literally just a pip to ignite them :)

Sirens are easy pickings, and Husks are pretty much target practise for you with your alternative weapons. Only one you are actually BAD against is the FP... which tbh shows the Firebug is perfectly well balanced as he is :)

However, is it just me, or if a scrake is on fire, it makes it so you can't katana stun him?
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
However, is it just me, or if a scrake is on fire, it makes it so you can't katana stun him?

tbh I can't say I use the Katana all that much, but not as far as I'm aware. Don't remember it causing an issue when Zerkers or medic went forward to tackle him... interested to test it now :)
 

comaryu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 31, 2010
85
17
0
DxB
However, is it just me, or if a scrake is on fire, it makes it so you can't katana stun him?

nope, still get stuned.

I usually buy a katana with a zerk, there are intances where crawlers,clots or gores come together with a scrake, and in these instances, these other zeds are behind or right side by side of the scrake.

I usually pop in a flame, and rush in with the katana, boom, stunned scrake, burning zeds, they're all down before anyone knows it.
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
0
California
As far as those berserker videos go. Fleshpounds have an enrage timer for distance of chase and damage. If you break the damage or distance barrier, then they enrage and come like a freight train. HOWEVER, the distance timer can be reset by 2 things. 1) Breaking Line of Sight. (This may also break the FP's fixate on you as the target). 2) Getting swung at. The berserker / Zerdic in the linked videos do exactly that, they get swung at and it resets the distance enrage timer.

This is the only reason they're being moderately successful. However, with how much of a blind eye they're turning to the other specimens, it's amazing they survive as long as they do. Also, on 6-man, this would take 10 years to down one as a head-melee could easily enrage them, so you're avoiding it.

If by 10 years you mean 6 primary axe swings + 2 alt fire axe swings to the head to drop a 6 man suicidal fp from a level 6 zerker, then sure (see below). It doesn't take as long as you'd think, provided your team is backing you up, and giving you a wide berth of space to operate. Also, in the first video, the zerker was constantly looking around him, so I fail see how he's turning a blind eye to the other specimens.

  • 700*(1+0.25*5)*1.75 = 2756 -> fp head health for 6 man suicidal
  • [125,175] * 1.25 * 2 * 2 / 2 = [312.5,437.5] -> axe headshot dmg to fp per swing
    • multiply by 1.25 for axe head shot bonus
    • multiply by 2 for level 6 zerker melee bonus
    • multiply by 2 for that back stabbing code not working properly
    • divide by 2 for FP melee resistance
  • [200,275] * 1.25 * 2 * 2 / 2 = [500,687.5] -> axe alt-fire headshot dmg to fp per swing
6 primary attacks + 2 alt attacks puts you at doing between 2875 and 4000 damage, enough to drop said fp. Also, I have never seen an FP rage from a single axe head shot so I doubt that random damage code is even bumping up damage past 312, which is less than the 360 damage needed to rage a fp. Provided you wait 2 seconds between strikes to allow the damage counter to reset, you won't even rage the fp until the alt fire attacks, which you can land the 2nd while he's in the rage animation.