Another RO vs DoDS Thread: Accuracy?

[Jack]

Weapons do have cones of fire...and not just MGs, but that seems to be what everyone is focusing on.



Even if you take an accuraized rifle, put it on a bench, and carefully fire, the shots will not land in the same place twice, and it gets worse the farther out you go. The thing is, is the groups are usually still pretty tight, like within a couple inches.


Granted, the weapons portrayed in games like DoD are not being fired on a bench, and they are often SMG slamfires, standard battle rifles using regular ammunition, and automatic rifles, so the groupings would be larger than you might think.

People don't like the idea of "randomness," but really, *nothing* in this universe is constant, there is an element of chaos and randomness in everything, including shooting. If you don't believe me, load up an assautl rifle, or even a single shot, and go do some target shooting on a silohuette from about 120 yards away. If you have never shot before, you will be happy if half your rounds land on the target at all, and even more happy if a third of those land anywhere within the chest/head area. People that don't shoot think that bullets go exactly where you point--they don't.

 

[Manstein]

I'm plenty happy if I can hit half my shots in RO at that range, it's pretty difficult to do!

 

[PUTZ]

Oh Manny. You were hitting everything that moved yesterday. :x

 

[Typ32]

So did I get that right now?
The weapons in RO basically have kinda pinpointaccuracy, but the bullets drop on long range and the weapons sway, so u have to aim carefully (like sniper in dod?)?
There is no shooting unironsighted?
Do the IS also block half of your screen like the K98 in DoDS?
An auto has the same accuracy as a rifle, but it sways more and has more recoil? So single shots with an auto on long range would be as effective as with a rifle? Or does the bullet drop sooner with an auto?



PS: DoD has got class limits almost as long as it exists, but few server admins are clever enough to use them. Arcadestyle were the versions before beta 1.3. Best version was definitely beta 2.1. Weapons in RL do have a cone of fire, but it is propably not that bad as DoDS displays it. You have to remember the weapons in the war were mass-fabricated and battered due to the hard life of a soldier in the war, they were not high precision rifles u can buy in a store today! Probably not even the FEW sniper rifles.

 

[FYROM]

So did I get that right now?
The weapons in RO basically have kinda pinpointaccuracy, but the bullets drop on long range and the weapons sway, so u have to aim carefully (like sniper in dod?)?
There is no shooting unironsighted?
Do the IS also block half of your screen like the K98 in DoDS?
An auto has the same accuracy as a rifle, but it sways more and has more recoil? So single shots with an auto on long range would be as effective as with a rifle? Or does the bullet drop sooner with an auto?



PS: DoD has got class limits almost as long as it exists, but few server admins are clever enough to use them. Arcadestyle were the versions before beta 1.3. Best version was definitely beta 2.1. Weapons in RL do have a cone of fire, but it is propably not that bad as DoDS displays it. You have to remember the weapons in the war were mass-fabricated and battered due to the hard life of a soldier in the war, they were not high precision rifles u can buy in a store today! Probably not even the FEW sniper rifles.

Ironsights really don't take up much of the screen, although each weapon is different. You can see some of them below:

http://www.modnmod.com/screenshots/46/1085597940MnMRO36.jpg
http://www.modnmod.com/screenshots/46/1085597730MnMRO23.jpg

You can also shoot un-ironsighted (except with PTRD and MG42, due to the massive recoil when undeployed), although you have no aiming point. The guns are also free-floating when un-ironsighted, so even taping an "x" in the middle of your screen won't let you snipe unironsighted

 

[PUTZ]

All the different types of ammo used in RO are calculated to travel at different velocities (and hence, accuracy aka conefire)...like IRL. So, an MP40 isn't as accurate as a Scoped Mauser at 500+ meters...

 

[Cleft_Asunder]

I'd like to use this opportunity to rant about everything I hate in DoD:S. K thx.

Uniforms/Player models:

The thing that bothers me to no end are the innacuracies in the player models.

Axis:

• Heer(Regular Armry) uniforms using SS pattern camo on their zeltbahn roll. (God I hate that).
• Every class has the earlier style highboots, there's no low boots/anklets, which were around a bit more by '44.
• I read somewhere they got the tunic collar wrong, too. Haven't really looked.
• The StG44 pouches I thought looked like the really late war pouches. However, I found out that the first pattern pouches did in fact look like this, so that's ok I guess.
• Some camo items in Heer pattern would've been nice and would've made for a nice variety between classes. Especially since there's an abundance of Heer camo to choose from.

US:

• The US unis have those stupid giant butt pouches which look like they're copied from the modern unis and are historically innacurate. Never seen anything like that in pictures, much less a whole squad equipped with them. WRONG!
• Umm, thats basically it for US. Although a little more variety would've been nice. (Tanker jackets, M43 unis, etc)

In general, given all the cool eye candy posibilities with Source, they could have done a llittle more(2 years FFS!). I think they did it on purpose to so they could watch all the accuracy geeks moan, and then mockingly laugh at them as they toast eachother with large beer steins full of diet Dr. Pepper.

Guns:
Aside from the aforementioned ice cream cone of fire, I hate that every single gun fires tracers. Which, by the way, makes it easier to see when shots actually shoot at a 45 degree angle from the barrel. Saw that shooting unscoped with a Springfield, making me say "WTF?" They even had to take away my 1337 unscoping skillz!!. *Sobs*

And ya, even when you switch to the weapon's single fire mode(stg44; BAR), it's exactly as innacurate as it would be in full auto, just slower. OMG, WTF? Not to mention that the BAR didn't have a semi auto mode, only a switch to lower the rate of fire. OMG, innacurate!

The MG42, .30 cal, and MP40 models look kinda dopey and too foreshortened. And don't the bullets in the ammo belt look a bit too small? (Ya , I'm splitting hairs. So sue me)

The Tommy gun looks nice though. And the rest are nice.

On the other hand , RO has the bestest most beautiful and accurate( even though the PPSH fired from the open bolt )gun skins!

Whoa, God that felt good! K I'm done.

Having said all that, DoD:S is still fun to play and I do play it. It still has a certain DoD "feel" to it(although at, like, light speed). And while I can see the point regarding class balances, I'd like at least some semblance of realism with a mod based on a historical event. Realism being what attracted me to DoD in the first place vs. CS, which I could never get into.

The new map Argentan looks really good, too BTW. I hope we see more stuff like this.



Pretty much agree 100% with this post. There was nothing wrong with weapon accuracy in the previous version.



Umm, no. I think this version of DoD is the most arcadish so far. Version 3.1 had the best gameplay, IMO, with the coolest maps and guns. (Also the version I started playing )

Yay! This is my first post evar on the RO forums! Nice to see all of you, great job, yadda, yadda, yadda.

You need to stop thinking you know so much, because I've already seen a big mistake in your post. The BAR did have a semi-auto and full-auto mode in one version, while in a later config they changed to slow full-auto and standard full-auto. Go do a search.

 

[Wolfsglen]

Guys,

I certainly do not mind you all discussing your own Pro/Cons for why you prefer or dislike RO or DoD etc in the slightest...but this thread and forum is NOT here for the sole reason of bashing the hell out of another game...please try and remember that.

Carry on

 

[Maschine Pistole-38]

You need to stop thinking you know so much, because I've already seen a big mistake in your post. The BAR did have a semi-auto and full-auto mode in one version, while in a later config they changed to slow full-auto and standard full-auto. Go do a search.

In 1940, the final BAR model

 

[BicycleRepairMan]

Ok, what I meant with "there is no cone of fire" is that its not really noticable unless the gun is in a fixed position or i guess if you are a proffesional athlete in shooting

Saying "Sure, all guns have conefire" is a bit like saying biljard balls are not really round*. its 100% true, but it has little no practical impact on how you play pool.

*If you resized a biljard ball to the size of earth, it would have deeper pits and taller mountains than the pits or mountains on earth..

 

[Huscarl]

Game Balance

Game Balance

Somebody mentioned this up higher, but I think it needs more attention brought to it:

DoD:S is not as sim-like as RO, hands down. Though could have created such a game, but they instead are trying to create a game that's supremely well-balanced, something I think they have succeeded in doing.

DoD maps, if played well, are a version of FPS WWII chess. You leave yourself open to vulnerability in one place in order to push forward in another. It's openly a game, and so has abstracted game elements (eg flags).

The roles are very important, and balanced in a way that REQUIRES teamplay to be successful. For instance, an SMG enters a house to clear out the snipers, and holds it while a rifle and mg come up. By taking the house, they have access to an alley in the back with a flag. The rifle clears out anybody in the alley and holds it long enough for the mg to setup, who then provides a defensive fire up the alley, preventing a recapture of the flag. Of course, he could always be flanked and attacked from behind, in which case he's dead meat.

IMO DoD is about the game, the setting is interesting, but ancillary to the balancing, tactics, etc. RO is much more Sim oriented, and is attempting to accomplish a different thing.

 

[Zell]

Nice post.

 

[JCoquillon]

Well as someone who has gone straight from playing RO:Ostfront into a DoD:S Server I think I can safely say the realism level in RO is noticeably higher.

Both games offer very different things. DoD is fast and agressive and a lot like a war film. RO is slower but grittier (and imho more rewarding) and is more like being in a real war.

I enjoy both depending on mood, but the attention to detail and feel of RO makes it feel much more real.

 

[Dryfear]

DOD was never, EVER meant to be a realistic game. It had slightly realistic tendencies before it began the move to a retail release. But, those were gutted, and look at it now.

RO goes for realism, DOD never did. End of story.

 

[TheBeagle]

Sorry, I think I was a bit mis-understood in my post. It was just a little light hearted bitching about a game I love. Wasn't trying to bash the hell out of DoD:S or suggest it should be an RO style sim. At any rate it was just my freakin OPINION. Maybe I shoulda used more smileys, jeez.

Like others have said, depending on my mood I'll play the more fun shoot em up DoD, or the slower realistic RO. (Both games get a bit old after a while) It'd just be cool if DoD could have gotten some of the cosmetic stuff a bit more realistically while keeping the balance in game play, j00 know? That doesn't mean I think DoD:S completely sucks, or I'm gonna get an aneurism(sp?) cose X camo pattern is less than perfect.

To get back on topic about weapon accuracy: It was intersting to note the term "cone of fire" is actually used in real life(Now everytime I go shooting I'm going to visualize a giant cone, great). But I still think it's a bit too big in DoD:S for the SMGs. I'm not saying I should be able to snipe someone at 100 yards with my MP40. But slow, carefully aimed shots should have a chance of at least not landing randomely in a two foot circle of where I'm aiming. No one is saying every gun should shoot exactly where pointed. They should just make it *a little* smaller, thats' all, IMHO. I think the system before was fine.

And my main point about semi auto function in Support Class was that it's not anymore accurate than full auto. Granted, I was a bit gratuitous on the BAR,. But if it's not going to be acurrate(in game) at least make it (historically) more accurate*. Also they should make it true semi auto. It's pretty lame you cant shoot them as fast as you pull the trigger just cose you pressed a selecter button.

Also, when you play a big map the MGs cone of fire is really noticeable. Like in Omaha map, when you try to mow down people with the MG42, it's really hard to hit them. I end up moving the crosshair in circles around their bodies and i seem to do better.

So to recap, I would be happy(er) if:

1. SMGs, MGs cone of fire was a little smaller.
2. Have support class semi-auto mode be a little more accurate. And also be truly semi-auto.
3. Some cool little cosmetic stuff thatt might be sorta accurate(like uniforms!) that would make you say, "Wow cool, they actually put___ in the game! Cool! This is the best game evar!".

And if I'm happy, everyone is happy.

Did all this make me go "OMFG c0n3z 0f f!r3 Ftl!! INNACUR4t3 ZOMG! nevar play DOD aga!nz0rz!!1!!!!" No. But it was a bit annoying. And it's actually making me reconsider buying even a familiar game again before playing it. I uninstalled the old DoD in anticipation of the awesomeness that would be Source. I'm thinking of reinstalling it..

Nevertheless, I've still gotten alot of enjoyment from DoD for free over the years(even tho I bought HL1 only for DoD, same as UT2k4 only for RO) and I'm glad their labor of love is getting them some money now. I just can't help at being a bit dissapointed at the aforementioned stuff and only 4 rather small maps after a few years and paying money. That's the pessimistic side...

Now the optimistic is I'm sure were still going to be getting new content, like the new map which looks awesome. Hopefully well get more bigger maps that stress holding ground and teamwork more. And As always there's great custom content created by the community. I'm still loyal to DoD and think it's the best ww2 FPS multiplayer out there. Not counting RO as RO is more of a sim, as some have pointed out.
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*Regarding the BAR critique, I was actually aware there was a semi-auto version. Guns.ru says even "many" 1918A1s(semi) were converted to A2s( non-semi) for ww2. This site says both versions were "widely used" and the USMC even converted some A2s to semi auto for use in the Pacific(cose the USMC always has to be different).
So probably by Normandy, it wouldn't be going out on a limb to say that most(not necessarily all) of the BARs were M1918A2s. At any rate, the gun model in DoD:S looks like an A2(slotted foregrip and black bakelite stock). So it's not such a "big mistake", as Cleft rather unceremoniously pointed out(and made me cry). I never said there were no semi-auto versions of the BAR. Furthermore, TheBeagle knows all.

Anyway arguing is kinda fun cose it makes you learn stuff you wouldn't normally pay attention to. Even though, as I already pointed out, I know everything. (Sh*t. as i was writing that I took a drink from a soda can in the dark backwards and poured soda in my nose )

Goddang, my posts are way to fekking long. Tootles.

 

[ViViD]

The reason why cone of fires are introduced is people are more accurate with a mouse and a pixel then a actually weighty rifle and trying to hit a target at 100 metres.

So you need to compensate with something otherwise in ww2 was fought with a mouse the war would of been over in 1 year instead of 5 as there would be no people left <smile>