An interesting insight into the issue of draw calls on the PC

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=GG= Mr Moe

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Apparently, the draw calls operation is single threaded only so that in itself will never max out your cpu if I understand things correctly.

I'm sure the rest of your cpu is doing other things related to the game and other computer operations.

Also from what I understand, since you have the i7, is hyper-threading on? From what I have been reading, that actually is slower than say the non hyper-threading in an i5. Again, just what I am reading since I am also interested in either an i7 or an i5 for a new build I may do.

Good luck.
 

jenskai1

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Sep 17, 2011
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Don't get me wrong, but would DX10/11 improve performance due to using more cores then?

(If that's what i read)

I'm sorry i'm acting stupid and if you guys just /facepalm at me, but my knowledge is basic:p
 

Tet5uo

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Sep 13, 2011
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Well, batlefield 3 is a bit buggy, but at least it's running like a proper PC game.

70-90 FPS at 5760x1080 resolution with ultra settings. CPU cores all working hard. Using 2240 MB of VRAM, all 3 GPU's pegged at 99% usage evenly and no stuttering and sound popping. It's glorious!

Why I'd ever want to run this game again and look at mud graphics and 40 FPS is beyond me.

Have fun guys.
 
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Das Bose

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Well, batlefield 3 is a bit buggy, but at least it's running like a proper PC game.

70-90 FPS at 5760x1080 resolution with ultra settings. CPU cores all working hard. Using 2240 MB of VRAM, all 3 GPU's pegged at 99% usage evenly and no stuttering and sound popping. It's glorious!

Why I'd ever want to run this game again and look at mud graphics and 40 FPS is beyond me.

Have fun guys.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. If I wanted mindless run and gun I'd be joining you in BF3.

However, playing a game of twitch against a bunch of prepubescent, angst ridden, mic squeaking children isn't my idea of tactical gaming :)
 

The_Cook

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May 10, 2006
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What people forget about is that the IBM cell processor is no longer contractually exclusive to Sony. Within the next few years we will begin seeing cell driven PC's coming onto the market for some omgwtf $$$. At that point PC CPU will absolutely crush console in every way shape and form. Let the PS4 come i will eventually build my cell PC that will crush it.

I7 Dual Quad core
10gig DDR4
Crossfired Hd4800

I run RO2 ultra, @ 1920x1200 50fps Monitor 1 COD4 Ultra 1600x1050 50fps monitor 2 Defrag the drives, run 2x virus scan and folding@home. only using 60% of my cpu MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

DesiQ

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That was a very interesting read. From the layman's view I have, it seems that we will either need to overhaul software middlemen, or else continue making better hardware to take care of these ballooning requirements, and we'll never get ahead.

I have always said that the future of gaming lies not with consoles or PCs, but with a merging of the two: basically a normal upgradeable PC with a pared-down OS. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a few years from now we'll be asked to dual-boot a second OS that's made specifically to play games.
 

mattlach

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Oct 20, 2011
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Big surprise.

When you have common hardware (like in consoles) you have fewer API overheads. You can even optimize code very specifically to that hardware (which you can't on a PC due to all the different combinations of hardware) due to the fact that every person with a certain console platform has pretty much the identical hardware.

This is why a console with a 6+ year old GPU can render something that is even remotely comparable to modern GPU's which are many times more capable. Currently PC's not only have the edge but completely demolish the consoles, as their more powerful hardware powers through API inefficiencies, but yes, once new consoles are launched, this will be evened out a bit, and the consoles may even take the lead.

Someone needs to give this guy a cookie :rolleyes:

That being said, it will only be a matter of time before this is reversed again. Since the console model needs to have a - for the tech world - extremely long life cycle in order to be profitable, within 6 months to a year of launch PC's will catch back up and surpass consoles again, and then build on this lead for another 7 years until the next generation of consoles are released.


This is the way the PC/Console comparison has been going pretty much since day one, and definitely since the launch of the original playstation, and I have no doubt it is going to continue that way.

Sure, clock frequency increases may start to slow down due to difficulties to continue to keep die shrinking CPU's as you get closer and closer to the size of the atom, but this will be compensated for through more prevalent multithreaded code, more cores, and higher numbers of instructions per clocks through core optimizations. Not to mention, Direct 3D and Open GL API's get better with each generation. So the next generation consoles will be DX11, eh? Well guess what. Shortly after launch (or maybe even before) we'll likely have DX12, and before that generation of consoles is done for, maybe even DX14...

We may some day reach the point where this is no longer technically feasible, but I still think that is a LONG way off.
 
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mattlach

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What people forget about is that the IBM cell processor is no longer contractually exclusive to Sony. Within the next few years we will begin seeing cell driven PC's coming onto the market for some omgwtf $$$. At that point PC CPU will absolutely crush console in every way shape and form. Let the PS4 come i will eventually build my cell PC that will crush it.

IBM's cell architecture - while great at certain things - is not a very good general purpose CPU, and as such, I don't think we'll see too many desktop/laptop computers with it. Even so, the shift away from x86 would be so costly that I doubt anyone would even consider it outside of small-market appliance type computers.

I7 Dual Quad core
10gig DDR4
Crossfired Hd4800

I run RO2 ultra, @ 1920x1200 50fps Monitor 1 COD4 Ultra 1600x1050 50fps monitor 2 Defrag the drives, run 2x virus scan and folding@home. only using 60% of my cpu MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What do you mean by I7 Dual Quad Core? You running a dual socket XEON system at home? Why? And DDr4? That's not even supposed to launch until 2014... Do you mean quad channel DDR3? And then holding it back by two generation old video cards...

Actually, in this case you probably aren't. What your 60% CPU util doesn't show you is that because of RO2's draw call dilemma over DX9, you are likely pinning one of your cores with draw calls, and are still CPU limited. Your CPU util is artificially low, because the other cores are idle or have low loads while this is happening. This doesn't show well in the task manager though, because the windows scheduler switches threads between cores more quickly than the performance charts updates, leading you to just see averages, and completely miss your one pegged core leading you to still be CPU limited.

If TWI come out with a DX11 patch, this may be mitigated somewhat, but you won't be able to use it, as you are stuck on DX10.1 era hardware with those 4800's.


Personally, I'm running a 4Ghz (overclocked) AMD Phenom II X6 with dual Radeon 6970's in crossfire.

I'm running at 2560x1600, with settings set to ultra (but tweaked to remove frame smoothing, and to set AA to the highest FXAA setting instead of MLAA, as they are the same quality, but FXAA is faster). post processing is set to War Movie.

I am getting between 48 and 80fps in game, and the funny part is, even at these rather extreme high video settings, I am still CPU limited. The GPU's never go above ~85% utilization. And as I recall the overall CPU utilization stays below 40%...
 
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G_Sajer

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Sep 4, 2011
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Well, if I'm understanding the article correctly, then when you boil everything down, it would seem that, deliberate or not, the MS O/S is our primary boat-anchor. I've spent a fortune on system upgrades in the last 9 months. I'm just now reaching the point where I'm getting satisfactory performance out of this years games. It would seem then that if the PC O/S cannot or will not be formulated to take advantage of all this horsepower, maybe it's time for an indy to step in and formulate an O/S that can be dual booted and which will focus exclusively on game app performance and communications. Can't say there wouldnt be a market for it.
 

mattlach

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Well, if I'm understanding the article correctly, then when you boil everything down, it would seem that, deliberate or not, the MS O/S is our primary boat-anchor. I've spent a fortune on system upgrades in the last 9 months. I'm just now reaching the point where I'm getting satisfactory performance out of this years games. It would seem then that if the PC O/S cannot or will not be formulated to take advantage of all this horsepower, maybe it's time for an indy to step in and formulate an O/S that can be dual booted and which will focus exclusively on game app performance and communications. Can't say there wouldnt be a market for it.

Well, there is only so much that can be done from the operating system standpoint.

The OS still has to have an API that serves as a common interface to the video card drivers, which then translate instruction so that they work on the 3D hardware.

This process can probably be improved and tweaked such that it takes better advantage of the computers hardware over time (particularly multiple cores) but a lot of this lies with the developers of the 3D engines the games are built on as well, to make sure their engines are multithreaded.

In the grand scheme though, the reason a console will always be faster, if running on equivalent hardware is because every one of that brand of console has the same hardware.

The console game engine can natively speak to the GPU, whereas everything on the PC needs to go through the combination of Direct 3D or Open GL API's and drivers which act as translators between the game engine and 3d hardware. This real time "translation" is what causes the extra load.

Another benefit the console has is that when you are making a game for a console, you can optimize each scene for your one hardware configuration, and test it, and know that it will be representative of what all users will experience. On a PC you can't really do this.

The developers could say "Hmm, having 7 buildings in this scene makes the game render kind of slow on console X, so we are going to put in 6 buildings instead". In more detail they can optimize it to the amount of VRAM and GPU power present. With a PC you have to choose one configuration and stick with it, and all sorts of different types of hardware which it is not optimized for will run it.

If every single PC had the same CPU, the same motherboard, the same type and amount of RAM, the exact same video card, and the same output resolution, you could overcome that gap, but this is not going to happen. hardware diversity is one of the things that makes the PC platform great.

But as mentioned before, it is a moot point.

Current consoles are a snapshot of ~2005 mid to high end hardware. Compared to PC's today, they are all but obsolete. The hardware commonality benefits allows them to still remain somewhat relevant, but they are still outclassed by the brute force of PC's.

So, when the next generation of consoles are released. (2012? 2013?) they will be a snapshot of mid to high end hardware available then. But guess what, a year later, PC hardware will once again be superior and able to power through any benefits the consoles get from hardware commonality.
 

Murphy

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Just to make sure I got this right:

Consoles outperform PCs with the same (or better, to a point) hardware, because due to the homogeneous nature of consoles it can be adressed more directly and efficiently.

Next generation consoles will catch up with the PC hardware of the time so that advantage the PC had will be gone and thus the next generation of consoles will perform better.

Aren't these things obvious?
It happened with the current generation, it will happen with the next. At least until a year or two (or three, god forbid) later top-of-the-range PC hardware will outperform console hardware again.

Wonderful.
 

Filo90

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 4, 2011
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let me know a thing, draw calls problem shouldn't make the game runs poorly for everyone? why some with good rigs could play the game wonderfully and others with same good rigs have problems? :confused::confused:
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
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I've been thinking about the concept of a Gaming OS for a while now.

Goodness knows it would be nice to get the extra performance, but if it also streamlined the development process, and made bug hunting easier for development studios that could really re energize the PC games market.
 

Icey_Pain

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Aug 8, 2011
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Just to make sure I got this right:

Consoles outperform PCs with the same (or better, to a point) hardware, because due to the homogeneous nature of consoles it can be adressed more directly and efficiently.

Next generation consoles will catch up with the PC hardware of the time so that advantage the PC had will be gone and thus the next generation of consoles will perform better.

Aren't these things obvious?
It happened with the current generation, it will happen with the next. At least until a year or two (or three, god forbid) later top-of-the-range PC hardware will outperform console hardware again.

Wonderful.

The way I understand it:

There's just one problem and that's that you need to make PC's faster in order to negate the advantage the consoles have. There's a couple of technologies that have made much faster processing possible, but the fact is that the amount of hertz that a processor can handle is limited by the way that it's built, which means that every technology has a limit, until it can go no faster.

That's why we see that the amount of relative increase in hertz per year is much slower than it was 10 years ago. Multicore processors, architectural optimisations and software optimisations have done a lot to remedy this problem.

Dividing the load over multiple cores is a method of doing things simultaneously, but not any faster. And that can be an issue when trying to get speed gains on certain areas.

What we really need is a new technology that allows increasing the speed of the CPU at a decent pace again. But until that technology arrives, consoles will get more and more benefit from being able to quickly adress the hardware.

As such, I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a market for a console, with a better input device. Maybe even a console with a mouse and keyboard(current-gen consoles can already do this, but the software simply isn't optimised to use it). Because as long as you've only got one single hardware configuration, complicated drivers aren't needed.
 
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Tweek

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Jun 10, 2006
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Honestly, I'm not sure if a dedicated gaming OS would be that much faster since you still have to deal with hardware abstraction and rely on 3rd party drivers to do the right thing. You also have a massive headache when it comes to interfacing with network cards, motherboards, input devices, etc, ALL of which would need compatible drivers. I really don't see it happening on the PC. At most, Windows might better optimize the rendering and bus pipelines in future versions.
 

=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
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Curious, does anyone know what the Treaded Optimization (for multiple cpus) does in the NVDIA Control Panel settings and if this actually has any affect on the subject being discussed?
 

mattlach

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 20, 2011
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You pays your money and you takes your choice. If I wanted mindless run and gun I'd be joining you in BF3.

However, playing a game of twitch against a bunch of prepubescent, angst ridden, mic squeaking children isn't my idea of tactical gaming :)

Agreed!

Now I wish everyone who likes the BF and CoD series would just hurry on off and go play those games, and stop ruining ours by running and gunning, or falling back and sniping on maps with objectives to be taken...