Always hits in the middle of the screen

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Skell

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You keep bringing up gameplay, but did you consider that forced ADS at every point might actually be a bad game mechanic? It slows down gameplay and completely eliminates a major mechanic (movement) from the equation while you are shooting.
I have a feeling that these people have from from RO2 - a game that isn't really like the fast-paced, PvE game KF1 was. I don't know if TWI plans on keeping that fast-paced aspect in KF2, but it would be odd not to.

Also do you think sharp should be totally useless against anything that's not a FP?
You mean Scrakes right? Sharps aren't nearly as effective against FPs in comparison to Demos (especially for doubles/triples/quads). I agree and get the rest of your point though.

In KF1 you can make yourself useful as a sharp at all times. Perhaps too useful sometimes, but at least killing biggies is not everything you can do.
This is pretty much leads into what I and (I believe) others I play with find that makes KF1 a game we've dumped so many hours in and haven't gotten done with it yet. There's no real 'perk roles' once you get to learn combos, tactics and stuff. You can keep mixing it up every game or even wave.
 
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moleculo

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This is pretty much leads into what I and (I believe) others I play with find that makes KF1 a game we've dumped so many hours in and haven't gotten done with it yet. There's no real 'perk roles' once you get to learn combos, tactics and stuff. You can keep mixing it up every game or even wave.
Yeah, exactly. We have a ton of fun stuff to play around with thanks to all the cool little mechanics and tactics (something I'm looking for from KF2 too, BTW). Sure, this also leads to the classes somewhat overlapping. But is it really that bad always? Like you said, it creates loads of diversity and new options for those who invest time to learn the game's ways. Complex gameplay mechanics are the soul of KF IMO.

And yeah, I do mean scrakes. Somehow I was too lazy to write both "scrakes and FPs" (meaning the big guys) so I just wrote the shorter word :eek:
 
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CrashFu

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You keep bringing up gameplay, but did you consider that forced ADS at every point might actually be a bad game mechanic? It slows down gameplay and completely eliminates a major mechanic (movement) from the equation while you are shooting.

I never said aiming properly should have to be done every single time you shoot.

I just said that point-shooting shouldn't replace actually aiming 100% of the time.

IE unless you're REALLY just trying to show off, you shouldn't be neglecting your sights if the enemy is farther away. Point shooting should be reserved for when something is so close that aiming doesn't matter, or you're just pegging a clot in the chest because "Eh, **** it"

If point shooting is always 100% accurate to a specific point on the screen like KF1, then like KF1 playing sharp will just be point-and-click and give too much reward for too little difficulty.

Also do you think sharp should be totally useless against anything that's not a FP? Sounds mighty fun just idling at a corner waiting for FPs to spawn. In KF1 you can make yourself useful as a sharp at all times. Perhaps too useful sometimes, but at least killing biggies is not everything you can do.
Every time I've tried playing a Hell On Earth game in KF1, that's EXACTLY what was happened. The Sharp would hide in a corner and never shoot unless they saw a scrake or FP. It was boring.

And no, I think Sharpshooter should shoot at ALL priority targets. Husks and Sirens die easily enough, for example, but if you can kill one in a single, quick shot, you can save your teammates a little heartache.

In difficulties below Hell On Earth, however, the Sharps kill EVERYTHING. Every clot and crawler that walks through the door, because they can do that easily with a handgun (or just waste all their rifle ammo and take all the ammo boxes) There are a number of classes in KF1 that are really good against certain enemies or in certain situations, but Sharps were good against everything in every situation. That takes away a lot of fun for other classes playing WITH Sharps, because the Sharps step on their toes when it should be their chance to actually get to do something.

Now that Sharps aren't good with handguns and recoil is going to delay how fast they can point-shoot multiple times in short order, it's going to be much harder for Sharps to efficiently and effectively deal with, say... a big horde of crawlers/clots that sneaks up on them. So this time they might actually say, "Alright I'll play my role of sniping out priority targets, and let you guys play your roles and not step on your toes so much. And if you watch my back so I can stand here and not have to run around a lot, I can get this unexplained bonus for standing still"


KF1 actually simulates point shooting pretty well. You can get almost as accurate as ADS at closer ranges when you practice enough, just as it should be. I don't see what's the problem here.

See, it's not the closer ranges where "100% point shooting accuracy to center of screen" becomes a problem. At closer ranges, you don't need to be 100% accurate anyways. You can be like 95% accurate and still reasonably kill the thing in the same room as you.


Beyond the range where anyone should reasonably be TRYING to point-shoot at a target is where it becomes a problem to have 100% accuracy to the center of the screen, because that's the only time you WOULD be bothering to use the sights/scope anyways.
 

moleculo

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I never said aiming properly should have to be done every single time you shoot.

I just said that point-shooting shouldn't replace actually aiming 100% of the time.

If point shooting is always 100% accurate to a specific point on the screen like KF1, then like KF1 playing sharp will just be point-and-click and give too much reward for too little difficulty.
I'm not sure what your point is. I mean, theory or practice? Because in practice 100 % of people will fail to aim on the screen center equally well with ADS and without. Even the most skilled sharpies probably ADS a lot if they want to do their best outside of mid-close range. So in practice the theoretical 100 % accuracy means nothing. You can define your own accuracy, but because you aren't a robot, it won't be 100 %. Unless we are talking about marked screen centers but that's just your own shame.

Every time I've tried playing a Hell On Earth game in KF1, that's EXACTLY what was happened. The Sharp would hide in a corner and never shoot unless they saw a scrake or FP. It was boring.

And no, I think Sharpshooter should shoot at ALL priority targets. Husks and Sirens die easily enough, for example, but if you can kill one in a single, quick shot, you can save your teammates a little heartache.
Those were bad players and going in this direction would discourage dynamic playstyle even further.

In difficulties below Hell On Earth, however, the Sharps kill EVERYTHING. Every clot and crawler that walks through the door, because they can do that easily with a handgun (or just waste all their rifle ammo and take all the ammo boxes) There are a number of classes in KF1 that are really good against certain enemies or in certain situations, but Sharps were good against everything in every situation. That takes away a lot of fun for other classes playing WITH Sharps, because the Sharps step on their toes when it should be their chance to actually get to do something.
Eh, I don't get this either. There's almost no point even using sharps on Hard and below since every other class can do almost the same without having to aim for headshots.
 

Skell

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In difficulties below Hell On Earth, however, the Sharps kill EVERYTHING.
Gonna have to stop you right there, kiddo.

Every perk kills everything on difficulties below Hell On Earth.

Edit: the rest of my post didn't go throuuuuuuuuuuugh

Here's the rest of it...

No one shoots 150m without ADSing accurately.

Since it's clear you don't do this yourself or just don't understand how applicable this is, I'll use devante as an example. Devante is easily the best player in Killing Floor and he's probably the best at point aiming (or whatever you wanna call it). He's 'this good' because of muscle memory and practice. Constantly getting better and better to get faster and faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCSCkf0VjXc
He doesn't just constantly no scope. You can't afford to miss doing 3 faked HoE. Zeds move to quickly and you need to ensure you don't miss to keep up. Instead of that, you'll see he uses the FoV changing of the screen to find the center of the screen, sometimes even going fully into ads to make sure he gets that kill. And being, again, the best KF player, even though he didn't use his sights, he lost at the end (because of husks... whatchu gunna do).
 
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moleculo

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Gonna have to stop you right there, kiddo.

Every perk kills everything on difficulties below Hell On Earth.

the rest of my post didn't go throuuuuuuuuuuugh
This is shocking news. Something should be done about perks being able to kill things.
 

Skell

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Damn, the guy is a machine. I'm suprised he aims down his sights probably more than I'd do at that range.
Him and SkyWindRushing are amazing at this game. Currently just doing my best to learn to aim acquire as fast as possible (like getting my center of the screen to the zeds heads).

A little while ago I was pretty happy with my accuracy so I tried to do a solo sharp bioticslab, spawn hold (no faked). I was pretty surprised to get it on my first try. I started recording a second one but wiped from a double husk + FP.
 

CrashFu

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I think I'm really confused, then..

If none of you were planning to Point-Shoot beyond the range where a couple degrees of inaccuracy would make a difference (IE beyond the range anyone realistically would attempt to point-shoot a target) then why IS it so important to you that hip-fired bullets are 100% accurate to the dead center of the screen?


I feel like only unscrupulous players are going to benefit from that at all. Not that I didn't sometimes point-shoot a lever-action or crossbow from farther away than was reasonable, often successfully, but that was when I was playing regularly enough that I knew where the imaginary reticle was by instinct; I couldn't do that now, with how out-of-practice I am.
 

Skell

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If none of you were planning to Point-Shoot beyond the range where a couple degrees of inaccuracy would make a difference (IE beyond the range anyone realistically would attempt to point-shoot a target)am.
Stop bringing up realism. This is a video game.

Have you played KF1? Zeds that are 150 meters away from the player aren't exactly relevant. And it would make a difference. Adding more spread means moving more away from skill and more to rng.

then why IS it so important to you that hip-fired bullets are 100% accurate to the dead center of the screen?


I feel like only unscrupulous players are going to benefit from that at all.
You mean players who will practice and constantly try to get better at the game? You mean any good player? Is that really unscrupulous of them for trying to master a game?

Not that I didn't sometimes point-shoot a lever-action or crossbow from farther away than was reasonable, often successfully, but that was when I was playing regularly enough that I knew where the imaginary reticle was by instinct; I couldn't do that now, with how out-of-practice I am.
Okay, I understand what's going on here. A friend linked me your Steam profile and it became clear very quickly. Your experience in this game comes from playing on Hard. You haven't beaten a single game of HoE and have gotten 1 Suicidal achievement.

You know why it was too easy? Because you were playing on Hard. On Hell on Earth, zeds move much fast and spawn much more quickly. Like I said before, every weapon and perk is over powered on Hard.
 

mrsirr

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Apr 12, 2013
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Over here, no not there, here.
Is it also uber realistic that you walk over an ammo box and get ammo for every single weapon in your inventory no matter what caliber they are?
Considering those are big tins of ammo and you only get 1-2 magazines per weapon it's reasonable to guess that there's more than one type of ammunition in there.
Now how the boxes always have just what you need in them, I guess that's just an awesome coincidence.
 

Skell

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Of course were not playing americas army but none the less it is somewhat realistic with its guns and attempts to bridge its science fiction environment to realistic shooting with beautifully modeled guns.

Game mechanics are a completely different story - were discussing more or less only the gun mechanics, which are not completely realistic but none the less attempt to be.

Right?
Yeah, TWI is smart and puts gameplay mechanics and fun before realism.
 

KingJoker

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Jun 15, 2009
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Yeah, TWI is smart and puts gameplay mechanics and fun before realism.

Then you have a game with no substance.

Look at APB crashing down in a firey flames.

On the outside it should be the funnest game since the inception of games - it failed miserably and cost a million dollars.

Unless of course you want Killing floor to become Garrys Mod - which works great for that kind of niche.

But it isnt, now is it? its a survival horror game.
 
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ChronoLogic

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Have you played KF1? Zeds that are 150 meters away from the player aren't exactly relevant. And it would make a difference. Adding more spread means moving more away from skill and more to rng.

I haven't played Killing Floor seriously since about 11 months ago, but in my opinion, the dead-center shots is what made Killing Floor require more technical skill and was what gave the game so much replay value for those people who found that there was a lot of room for skill.
 

Skell

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Then you have a game with no substance.
Because, when you prioritize, everything that isn't the number 1 priority isn't remotely looked at. Because the Portal series only has portals in it, nothing else mattered.

Look at APB crashing down in a firey flames.
Comparing a FTP, micro-transaction based MMO to a 6 player co-op game.

The worst part is that the people who think this game is bad isn't because it's not 'realistic' or 'has no substance'. It was because it was an unfinished, unpolished game (source: Metacritic). This has no relevance to the topic.

Unless of course you want Killing floor to become Garrys Mod - which works great for that kind of niche.
Niche? Are you trying to compare a sandbox game to Killing Floor? We're talking about the same Garry's Mod, right? The one with almost 50,000 players every day? Garry's Mod doesn't satisfy a 'niche'. It's a game that's made to be able to be customized to satisfy all niches.

As Jon Stewart once said: "Bull**** mountain is tall, bull**** mountain is wide, ... and it deep."