RS Alterations to the BAR

[SirBurger27]

so in the first part of your post you tell me they used it to lay down heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions and then you tell me they didn't use it as LMG. i wonder what the "traditional LMG" role was again?

and if you use a gun for "heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions", i wonder how a gun that doesn't have changeable barrel and has a whopping 20 round capacity can be effective in that role.

as for the bipod, from what i've read, it was heavy and cumbersome to use, which i assume is the reason why the soldiers just removed it to save the weight. so basically it was another poor feature of the gun.


the problem is that regardless how you look at the BAR, the way it performs in the game compared to other weapons is imbalanced.

i'm sure there wouldn't be a problem if you could shoulder the BAR, dump your 20 rounds mag in direction of enemy, go back in cover to reload and regain some strength to shoulder it again and repeat. the issue is that there isn't ever any reason to do this, because your soldier doesn't care how heavy the BAR is and can shoot while standing just as well as a springfield or garand. except with 20 rounds magazine and full auto capability.

the other side of the problem is that if you say that the weight of BAR isn't enough to not only prevent it from being shouldered, but also fired accurately while shouldered, why the hell can't you do the same thing with type 99/96? are you telling me that a gun that weights 8-9kgs, or double the average rifle can be handled just as easily as said rifle, but if you add 1-2 additional kilograms, it's suddenly too much to shoulder it at all?

again, what in reality was too heavy for rifle and too flawed for LMG, in the game is for some reason best of the both worlds. and keep in mind USA already has a significant edge in firepower even without it.

If I fired my entire 50-round Thompson magazine at a Japanese bunker to suppress the troops inside, am I not laying down automatic fire on an enemy position? This is not something which is exclusive to a "traditional LMG" whatsoever. In my mind, a "traditional LMG" is a fully automatic weapon which fires rifle caliber rounds from a prone or rested position using a bipod or a tripod. I also believe a "traditional LMG" would not be able to be fired from the shoulder for significant periods of time.

I agree that the BAR is a little bit too easy to use in-game, but I do not agree that the BAR is the useless subpar weapon you portray at is. The BAR in real life was a very powerful (was most often issued with .30-06 Armor Piercing ammo instead of the standard .30-06 Ball) and accurate automatic weapon which accounted for many Japanese casualties in the Pacific theater of operations. Many US Marines found it to be at its best when used as more of a shoulder fired rifle with a fully automatic fire mode while the M1919A6 filled the role of support LMG.

The best way to make the BAR less unbalanced in the game imo would be to make it go into iron sights slower than it does currently which would help simulate the fact that it is heavier than a Garand or Springfield.

The reason why the Japanese LMGs can't be shouldered is very simple: they were not designed or meant to be shouldered. They do not have the proper sights, forward grip, stock, or magazine placement to be effectively fired from the shoulder like the BAR.

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

The best way to make the BAR less unbalanced in the game imo would be to make it go into iron sights slower than it does currently which would help simulate the fact that it is heavier than a Garand or Springfield.

This I would be ok with. I also wouldn't mind if the automatic rifleman moved a bit slower. As you said earlier, the B.A.R. was an excellent weapon and IMO should be represented as one, as it is now. Although i wouldn't mind slight tweaking to make it a little more fair to the Japanese team.

 

[chuy]

What does the ptrs have to do with this thread? We are talking about the B.A.R.

oh really? i didnt see the title -_-. you clearly dont get the analogy.

Anyways, yes, I agree on making the weapon slower to put to your eyes AND reduce the time for the soldier to start "swaying" the weapon.

This fix hasn't even scratched the paint on what things needs to be fixed and adjusted in Rising Storm as a whole.

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

*dying so much to not bring hipfire ptrd conversation into this as i watched that video.

And that was one shot. Try multiple especially full auto with the BAR. Probably after the 2nd shot you wont be hitting anywhere near the target medium to long range.

common guys, all i wanted was hipfire inaccurate shot. sry had to do it. If i didnt get what i requested on a similar topic and people are answer the same, then neither will he.

oh really? i didnt see the title -_-. you clearly dont get the analogy.

Anyways, yes, I agree on making the weapon slower to put to your eyes AND reduce the time for the soldier to start "swaying" the weapon.

This fix hasn't even scratched the paint on what things needs to be fixed and adjusted in Rising Storm as a whole.

What analogy? what i highlighted in red has literally nothing to do with this thread. Anyways to avoid derailing the thread even more, what i highlighted in yellow, I wouldn't mind seeing. But I think having this weapon without a Japanese version makes it asymetrical, witch is one of Rising Storm's selling points / highlights.

 

[JD0x0]

Your point is moot. You linked a video of a highly trained former Army Ranger Sniper and assumed your could just paint that picture over the average GI-Joe taking fire from machine-guns and mortars while under heavy stress and also likely low on stamina.

Is it possible? Yes, just about anything is possible, especially with enough training, experience and innovation.

How is my point moot? I think you missed my entire point if you think that. People are claiming a heavy gun will have a lot of sway because it will be hard to hold. I posted a video that CLEARLY showed that a weapon heavier than the BAR could be held very steady despite it's weight. Debunking your anecdotal evidence that a heavy gun is hard to hold steady, and will have a lot of 'sway.'

It doesn't matter that he was highly trained and not under stress. I am not saying that adding stress will not hinder someone's ability to shoot. I even addressed it in that post. My point was a heavy gun wont inherently have more sway than a lighter one due to it's weight. Adding stress, may add 'sway' and shaking to ANY WEAPON, but there is no evidence that a heavier gun will 'sway' more in these conditions simply because it's heavier, and that was the point I was trying to make.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

How is my point moot? I think you missed my entire point if you think that. People are claiming a heavy gun will have a lot of sway because it will be hard to hold. I posted a video that CLEARLY showed that a weapon heavier than the BAR could be held very steady despite it's weight. Debunking your anecdotal evidence that a heavy gun is hard to hold steady, and will have a lot of 'sway.'

It doesn't matter that he was highly trained and not under stress. I am not saying that adding stress will not hinder someone's ability to shoot. I even addressed it in that post. My point was a heavy gun wont inherently have more sway than a lighter one due to it's weight. Adding stress, may add 'sway' and shaking to ANY WEAPON, but there is no evidence that a heavier gun will 'sway' more in these conditions simply because it's heavier, and that was the point I was trying to make.

I don't even...

 

[Floyd]

I just have to plug my two cents in.

I'm an engineer by schooling (mechanical engineer to be exact). So I'm not unfamiliar with mathematics, calculations, etc... and in particular how they translate to real life application (and/or the validity and integrity of the what the calculation is supposed to represent).

I used to be an avid comp shooter (shotgun, pistol and rifle comps). So, I've handled a few weapons.

I've reloaded countless rounds of ammunition in search of that 'perfect' load for each weapon. So, I'm not a complete novice on ballistics (or how well tables translate into live fire rounds, etc. etc.

Now that the epeen is out of the way......

Two or three things come to mind.

One factor left out of all of the discussions about recoil, weapons etc. is the human factor. The effect of recoil (regardless of how one wants to measure it or quantify its force/power) is not the same for every person. Period. An individuals anatomy (arm length, weight, how the gun is held, stance...blah, blah, blah, blah, and blah) among factors play a huge role.

There is 'sway' in every sight picture of every shooter. It is an individual's ability to command his body to have the weapon fire at that precise moment a quality sight picture crosses the point of aim he desires that makes one a good shooter. As with any athletic endeavor, some do it better than others. Everyone can train or be trained to improve their skill sets.

RE: the youtube video and the "Oh look how unsteady that HEAVY weapon is. /Sarcasm " comment. I suppose the poster missed the sway at ~1:18 into the video. Looked pretty massive to me. But that is neither here nor there. (See the above paragraph). Off the top of my head, if the tip of the barrel moves just 1/2 inch that's <50 feet a 1000 yds. Upclose youtube videos for examples of downrange results of rifle recoil/sway are about as useful as tits on a boar hog, imo. Its pretty hard to tell from a video if the gun is swaying sub-inch. (From a previous post: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1283903&postcount=944)


I'm not debunking the notion that there (by default) needs to be a standard or norm by which a game portrays the characteristics of how a gun handles. Regardless of the ammunition used, every firearm has its own particular characteristics that makes it unique. That is the objective part. How an individual handles those unique characteristics is the subjective part. That's where creative license rears it head. Something us pencil pushers have trouble qualifying.

 

[chuy]

@Floyd

Yea, there must be a standard. How it is in-game, it seems the soldiers with heavier guns seem stronger. Just im general, they need to look over the whole stats and mechanics of the game and refinish them with more accurate ones.

 

[HellsJanitor]

How is my point moot? I think you missed my entire point if you think that. People are claiming a heavy gun will have a lot of sway because it will be hard to hold. I posted a video that CLEARLY showed that a weapon heavier than the BAR could be held very steady despite it's weight. Debunking your anecdotal evidence that a heavy gun is hard to hold steady, and will have a lot of 'sway.'

It doesn't matter that he was highly trained and not under stress. I am not saying that adding stress will not hinder someone's ability to shoot. I even addressed it in that post. My point was a heavy gun wont inherently have more sway than a lighter one due to it's weight. Adding stress, may add 'sway' and shaking to ANY WEAPON, but there is no evidence that a heavier gun will 'sway' more in these conditions simply because it's heavier, and that was the point I was trying to make.

I feel like I am arguing with a brick wall here...

 

[Cwivey]

This thread goes against a previous thread that asked for it to be made a little easier (which it then was).

The community can't make up it's mind.

 

[LugNut]

Floyd's post should be copy/pasted into every one of these weapon threads that spin off into "realism" arguments backed up by interweb "research". Very well put.

Guns are accurate, people are not so much, it's the modeling of varying human physiological behaviour into a game that is the *****.

 

[Fishsticks]

I just have to plug my two cents in.

I'm an engineer by schooling (mechanical engineer to be exact). So I'm not unfamiliar with mathematics, calculations, etc... and in particular how they translate to real life application (and/or the validity and integrity of the what the calculation is supposed to represent).

I used to be an avid comp shooter (shotgun, pistol and rifle comps). So, I've handled a few weapons.

I've reloaded countless rounds of ammunition in search of that 'perfect' load for each weapon. So, I'm not a complete novice on ballistics (or how well tables translate into live fire rounds, etc. etc.

Now that the epeen is out of the way......

Two or three things come to mind.

One factor left out of all of the discussions about recoil, weapons etc. is the human factor. The effect of recoil (regardless of how one wants to measure it or quantify its force/power) is not the same for every person. Period. An individuals anatomy (arm length, weight, how the gun is held, stance...blah, blah, blah, blah, and blah) among factors play a huge role.

There is 'sway' in every sight picture of every shooter. It is an individual's ability to command his body to have the weapon fire at that precise moment a quality sight picture crosses the point of aim he desires that makes one a good shooter. As with any athletic endeavor, some do it better than others. Everyone can train or be trained to improve their skill sets.

RE: the youtube video and the "Oh look how unsteady that HEAVY weapon is. /Sarcasm " comment. I suppose the poster missed the sway at ~1:18 into the video. Looked pretty massive to me. But that is neither here nor there. (See the above paragraph). Off the top of my head, if the tip of the barrel moves just 1/2 inch that's <50 feet a 1000 yds. Upclose youtube videos for examples of downrange results of rifle recoil/sway are about as useful as tits on a boar hog, imo. Its pretty hard to tell from a video if the gun is swaying sub-inch. (From a previous post: [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1283903&postcount=944[/URL])


I'm not debunking the notion that there (by default) needs to be a standard or norm by which a game portrays the characteristics of how a gun handles. Regardless of the ammunition used, every firearm has its own particular characteristics that makes it unique. That is the objective part. How an individual handles those unique characteristics is the subjective part. That's where creative license rears it head. Something us pencil pushers have trouble qualifying.

+1 good post Floyd

 

[HellsJanitor]

I'm kind of hoping to get an opinion from the RS team on changing the BAR.