RS Alterations to the BAR

[JD0x0]

The recoil is pretty realistic. You said it yourself. The bar weighs 20lbs (heavier with the bi-pod and stuff. There are 24 lb variants)
Heavy guns soak up recoil. I did a calculation in another thread on this site and, IIRC, the recoil came out as being somewhere between an AK47 and an M4. Yes the .30-06 generates more recoil than .223/5.56x45 and 7.62x39 but the BAR is far heavier than those light 7-8lb rifles which makes up the difference.
Also the BAR was pretty accurate, so hitting a man sized target at 200m shouldn't be a problem at all. Heavier guns, in general, tend to be more accurate. Heavy guns tend to be more steady, and having that weight reduces the amount of shaking from pulse beat. In addition to the recoil reduction, which tends to making accurate shooting easier. This is why many sniper rifles tend to be on the heavy side, especially compared to hunting rifles in the same caliber.
It's pretty realistic. It was a good gun IRL and it's a good gun in game.

The only changes that should be made are nerfs from the heavy weight. This would include reduced run speed/stamina, and iron sights should come up slower.

 

[ndlksandklasnda]

During the war, the USMC combat doctrine was often centered on simply overwhelming fire superiority through the use of BARs. In fact, near the end of the war, Marine rifle squads were issued 2 BARs for every 12 man rifle squad.

except for the fact that they issued more BARs not because the weapon was that good, but simply because 1 BAR didn't have enough capacity and overheated too quickly to do anything

I also dislike the alt-fire slow shooting mode. It's not like the thing had 2 triggers for different speeds.

you're right, it had a selector switch.

 

[SirBurger27]

except for the fact that they issued more BARs not because the weapon was that good, but simply because 1 BAR didn't have enough capacity and overheated too quickly to do anything

I would like to see a source which says the BAR an ineffective weapon which "overheated too quickly to do anything." Most interviews of former Marines have indicated that the BAR was a very well-liked weapon, and that having 2 or more per squad meant that they could lay down heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions.

True, the BAR had a low capacity and was not well suited to the role of a traditional LMG (the M1919A6 fits this role better), but the way the Marines used it was in a kind of hybrid Rifle/MG fashion, where it was well suited. This is why many of the Marines would simply throw away the excess weight of the bipod and flash-hider and exclusively fire it from the shoulder.

 

[chuy]

The recoil is pretty realistic. You said it yourself. The bar weighs 20lbs (heavier with the bi-pod and stuff. There are 24 lb variants)
Heavy guns soak up recoil. I did a calculation in another thread on this site and, IIRC, the recoil came out as being somewhere between an AK47 and an M4. Yes the .30-06 generates more recoil than .223/5.56x45 and 7.62x39 but the BAR is far heavier than those light 7-8lb rifles which makes up the difference.
Also the BAR was pretty accurate, so hitting a man sized target at 200m shouldn't be a problem at all. Heavier guns, in general, tend to be more accurate. Heavy guns tend to be more steady, and having that weight reduces the amount of shaking from pulse beat. In addition to the recoil reduction, which tends to making accurate shooting easier. This is why many sniper rifles tend to be on the heavy side, especially compared to hunting rifles in the same caliber.
It's pretty realistic. It was a good gun IRL and it's a good gun in game.

The only changes that should be made are nerfs from the heavy weight. This would include reduced run speed/stamina, and iron sights should come up slower.

We are not debating if the weapon is accurate or not. We know its accurate. Heck, the PTRD is accurate past 2,000 yards. What we are saying is that we want sway. Heaviet weapon=more sway. You probably are thinking we are saying heavier weapon=/= accurate. We are not talking about accuracy here.

Also, if unmounted, should be pretty violent. The person needs to have strength to controll that 20lb and combine that with recoil. Just like a heavier person crashes at you has more kinectic energy than a lighter person crashing into you faster. The heavier person would mostly likely throw you off- balance than a lighter person going faster. But in-game, it is like if the soldier wielding the bar is taking a walk at the park.

 

[JD0x0]

We are not debating if the weapon is accurate or not. We know its accurate. Heck, the PTRD is accurate past 2,000 yards. What we are saying is that we want sway. Heaviet weapon=more sway. You probably are thinking we are saying heavier weapon=/= accurate. We are not talking about accuracy here.

My point was heavier weapons have less 'sway' in real life. Less 'pulse beat' which is shaking from the shooters pulse, and heavier guns in general are more steady.

The OP was complaining how easy it is to make shots at 200m, which shouldn't be hard with this weapon, due to it's steadiness and accuracy IRL.

In real life, the only drawback to a heavy weapon is it's heavier to carry and maneuver, obviously, and it might be harder to lift from the hip to bring up the iron sights. Which is why I mentioned nerfing the time it takes to bring up the sights as well as run speed and stamina.

Also, if unmounted, should be pretty violent. The person needs to have strength to controll that 20lb and combine that with recoil. Just like a heavier person crashes at you slower than a lighter person crashing into you faster. The heavier person would mostly likely throw you off- balance than a lighter person going faster.

N
o, you don't need more strength to control the recoil. I don't know what you're talking about, you need more strength to lift the weapon, but recoil is softer, and it wont knock you off your feet more. It pushes LESS because it has less recoil. I think you're confusing inertia. When you shoot a gun you don't fight with the recoil, you fire the gun, hold it as you would while firing, and you let it do what it wants, it pushes back and the muzzle tends to rise a bit. A heavier gun has a softer push, and less rise, compared to a lighter one shooting the same load. A rookie mistake is that shooters will sometimes anticipate recoil and either jerk their shoulder back in fear, or forward in an attempt to 'fight' or 'control' it. This does nothing but throw off accuracy.

If someone throws a basket ball and a bowling ball at you at the same speed, yes the heavier one will obviously knock you back more, but it takes much more energy to throw the bowling ball at the same speed as the basket ball, so it's not a fair comparison. The 30-06 isn't pushing with more energy in a heavier gun. It's pushing with significantly less energy. A lighter gun is more likely to knock you off your feet from recoil. A heavier gun recoils with both LESS force, AND less speed. The gun physically kicks back at a slower speed, with less energy than a heavier one shooting the same round.
As I said before a heavy BAR has the recoil energy somewhere between the M4 and AK47 leaning more towards the recoil energy of an AK47. but the BAR recoils with less velocity than the AK47. Meaning the gun pushing back physically moves a few FPS slower than an AK47 pushing back. Almost half the speed as it turns out. BAR=about 3.76FPS AK47=about 6.84FPS Both weapons generate less than 7ft-lbs of free recoil energy, which is not much at all compared to the 16-20ft-lbs that a lighter 8lb weapon like the M1903 or Garand would generate. Some pistols generate more than 7ft-lbs recoil energy, even with fairly 'wimpy' rounds. This is obviously because pistols tend to be light.

except for the fact that they issued more BARs not because the weapon was that good, but simply because 1 BAR didn't have enough capacity and overheated too quickly to do anything

The BAR, shot for shot, shouldn't generate any more heat than the M1 Garand, and even should cool faster due to the heat syncs on the barrel. They heat up faster due to full auto fire and dumping full mags towards the enemy. If you use it the same way as the M1 Garand, you should have no more overheating problems, than the Garand.

 

[mrsirr]

Well most of that post was about the recoil :/

d'oh I hate it when that happens.

 

[chuy]

My point was heavier weapons have less 'sway' in real life. Less 'pulse beat' which is shaking from the shooters pulse, and heavier guns in general are more steady.

The OP was complaining how easy it is to make shots at 200m, which shouldn't be hard with this weapon, due to it's steadiness and accuracy IRL.

In real life, the only drawback to a heavy weapon is it's heavier to carry, obviously, and it might be harder to lift from the hip to bring up the iron sights. Which is why I mentioned nerfing the time it takes to bring up the sights as well as run speed and stamina.


The BAR, shot for shot, shouldn't generate any more heat than the M1 Garand, and even should cool faster due to the heat syncs on the barrel. They heat up faster due to full auto fire and dumping full mags towards the enemy. If you use it the same way as the M1 Garand, you should have no more overheating problems, than the Garand.

Well, for that steady weapon to be steady, it is down to the soldier. It needs much more strength to control and hold that weapon to your shoulder. Just imagine the strength needed to keep that weapon steady at full auto. That is why we technically mean we want the weapon "less accurate" because it requires more strength to use. We are going by the average soldier using the weapon.

 

[HellsJanitor]

My point was heavier weapons have less 'sway' in real life. Less 'pulse beat' which is shaking from the shooters pulse, and heavier guns in general are more steady.

The OP was complaining how easy it is to make shots at 200m, which shouldn't be hard with this weapon, due to it's steadiness and accuracy IRL.

In real life, the only drawback to a heavy weapon is it's heavier to carry and maneuver, obviously, and it might be harder to lift from the hip to bring up the iron sights. Which is why I mentioned nerfing the time it takes to bring up the sights as well as run speed and stamina.

By that logic, someone shoulder-firing a an M82 sniper rifle or an M2 Browning would be accurate at 200 meters because those weapons are incredibly heavy.

Two points I see you are missing here:
-Arm strain from having to shoulder the weapon and line up the iron-sights, causing your arms to shake over time until giving out.
-The BAR uses an Open-Bolt mechanism which would automatically throw off your aim after your first shot, making it even more difficult.

I agree Run Speed, Iron-sights, and Stamina should all be reduced.
But keeping it as accurate and steady as it is, I don't agree. At the very least the recoil reducing grip should be removed and sway increased except when prone or crouched.

Is it accurate? Likely yes because it has a very long and heavy barrel. But accuracy only counts for where the weapon is actually pointed, and not where the soldier intended the shot to go, i.e. the action, stress or sway putting the bullet in a slightly different spot than where was intentioned.

 

[chuy]

By that logic, someone shoulder-firing a an M82 sniper rifle or an M2 Browning would be accurate at 200 meters because those weapons are incredibly heavy.

Two points I see you are missing here:
-Arm strain from having to shoulder the weapon and line up the iron-sights, causing your arms to shake over time until giving out.
-The BAR uses an Open-Bolt mechanism which would automatically throw off your aim after your first shot, making it even more difficult.

I agree Run Speed, Iron-sights, and Stamina should all be reduced.
But keeping it as accurate and steady as it is, I don't agree. At the very least the recoil reducing grip should be removed and sway increased except when prone or crouched.

Is it accurate? Likely yes because it has a very long and heavy barrel. But accuracy only counts for where the weapon is actually pointed, and not where the soldier intended the shot to go, i.e. the action, stress or sway putting the bullet in a slightly different spot than where was intentioned.

This guy hit it home. I was trying to say this but my english isnt my best language

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

I would like to see somone take an accurate 200m+ shot with a BAR while standing.

 

[JD0x0]

-The BAR uses an Open-Bolt mechanism which would automatically throw off your aim after your first shot, making it even more difficult.

FWIW an open bolt gun 'throws off' your aim BEFORE the shot. The open bolt slams forward to fire the gun. The weight of this mass moving tends to create a 'recoil' or movement before the bullet is fired. A light gun such as a MAC-10 would suffer from this far worse than a heavier gun like the BAR, because of the mass of the bolt versus the rest of the rifle. This is why open bolt SMG's tend to be inaccurate. The heavier the gun, compared to the bolt, the less dramatic this effect would be.

By that logic, someone shoulder-firing a an M82 sniper rifle or an M2 Browning would be accurate at 200 meters because those weapons are incredibly heavy.

They should be and they usually are. The problem is keeping it shouldered for long periods due to the weight. As long as the weapon is light enough for someone to physically lift and bring up the sights it should be fine. I've seen people shoulder fire an M82 at long(ish) distances and shoot just fine. I've even seen a man in his 70's shoulder fire an empty 6 shots in under 1 second into a target accurately, but that was at close range. You can't expect to rapid fire at long range, like that, with any gun.

I've never shot 40lb rifles, but the difference between the heavy and light rifles I've fired was only the amount of time it took for my arms to start burning. I had no problem holding the heavier rifles steady and in fact, they suffered from less 'pulse beat' like I mentioned before. I don't have an area to shoot 200m but I had no problem shooting standing, offhand, at 100meters and even managed a nickel sized group at that range. I like practicing with an elevated heart rate, so I usually smoke a little weed, and then either walk or do some light jogging before I shoot, to simulate stress in a hunting situation.

 

[JD0x0]

I would like to see somone take an accurate 200m+ shot with a BAR while standing.

What about a 35lb Barrett 50 cal @ 1000 yards?
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA


Oh look how unsteady that HEAVY weapon is. /Sarcasm

Albeit, it's not a moving target that's shooting back at you, like what would happen in war, it IS still a man sized target at long range, and you can see how steady he is holding that rifle even though it weighs 35-37lbs according to the video.

 

[JagdpantherX]

I know you all like to keep talking about realism I do too, but in game there is a imbalance of keeping the bar in its current state.

Like I said before, the handle should be removed. Jack of all trade weapons shouldn't be that powerful in all areas.

Range, Accuracy, Damage per bullet, TTK(time to kill), recoil, ect. In other words it has all the good traits with very few deficiencies, which get mitigated when the play levels up the weapon.

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

We are not debating if the weapon is accurate or not. We know its accurate. Heck, the PTRD is accurate past 2,000 yards. What we are saying is that we want sway. Heaviet weapon=more sway. You probably are thinking we are saying heavier weapon=/= accurate. We are not talking about accuracy here.

Also, if unmounted, should be pretty violent. The person needs to have strength to controll that 20lb and combine that with recoil. Just like a heavier person crashes at you has more kinectic energy than a lighter person crashing into you faster. The heavier person would mostly likely throw you off- balance than a lighter person going faster. But in-game, it is like if the soldier wielding the bar is taking a walk at the park.

First off, the ptrd has nothing to do with the B.A.R., and I believe someone explained why the B.A.R. would have less recoil because of the weight, but I wouldnt mind if it took longer to aim it.

 

[HellsJanitor]

I've never shot 40lb rifles, but the difference between the heavy and light rifles I've fired was only the amount of time it took for my arms to start burning. I had no problem holding the heavier rifles steady and in fact, they suffered from less 'pulse beat' like I mentioned before. I don't have an area to shoot 200m but I had no problem shooting standing, offhand, at 100meters and even managed a nickel sized group at that range. I like practicing with an elevated heart rate, so I usually smoke a little weed, and then either walk or do some light jogging before I shoot, to simulate stress in a hunting situation.

They suffer from less 'pulse beat' because your muscles are tightened because more effort has to be put into holding the weapon.

Obviously if you have an extraordinarly light rifle like 5lbs, you will notice your 'pulse beat' or heart beat affect your shot because there is no overwhelming force to keep those factors from coming into play.

Now I will say again that Regardless of what real-life facts do and don't come into play, the BAR is totally imbalanced and affects gameplay negatively.
Even if the BAR was just 8lbs or less in real life and was as accurate as a sniper rifle, you can't implement a 'Super Weapon' on only one side and expect people not to be annoyed. Similar to how the Garand and Thompson have excessive recoil versus the Japanese weapons. Why? Because balance. Having 1 team with semi-autos and the other with stone-age bolt actions isn't fair, and there has to be a way to make them even.

What about a 35lb Barrett 50 cal @ 1000 yards?
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA


Oh look how unsteady that HEAVY weapon is. /Sarcasm

Albeit, it's not a moving target that's shooting back at you, like what would happen in war, it IS still a man sized target at long range, and you can see how steady he is holding that rifle even though it weighs 35-37lbs according to the video.

Your point is moot. You linked a video of a highly trained former Army Ranger Sniper and assumed your could just paint that picture over the average GI-Joe taking fire from machine-guns and mortars while under heavy stress and also likely low on stamina.

Is it possible? Yes, just about anything is possible, especially with enough training, experience and innovation.

 

[chuy]

What about a 35lb Barrett 50 cal @ 1000 yards?
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3BUnHiv6AA


Oh look how unsteady that HEAVY weapon is. /Sarcasm

Albeit, it's not a moving target that's shooting back at you, like what would happen in war, it IS still a man sized target at long range, and you can see how steady he is holding that rifle even though it weighs 35-37lbs according to the video.

*dying so much to not bring hipfire ptrd conversation into this as i watched that video.

And that was one shot. Try multiple especially full auto with the BAR. Probably after the 2nd shot you wont be hitting anywhere near the target medium to long range.

common guys, all i wanted was hipfire inaccurate shot. sry had to do it. If i didnt get what i requested on a similar topic and people are answer the same, then neither will he.

 

[ndlksandklasnda]

I would like to see a source which says the BAR an ineffective weapon which "overheated too quickly to do anything." Most interviews of former Marines have indicated that the BAR was a very well-liked weapon, and that having 2 or more per squad meant that they could lay down heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions.

True, the BAR had a low capacity and was not well suited to the role of a traditional LMG (the M1919A6 fits this role better), but the way the Marines used it was in a kind of hybrid Rifle/MG fashion, where it was well suited. This is why many of the Marines would simply throw away the excess weight of the bipod and flash-hider and exclusively fire it from the shoulder.

so in the first part of your post you tell me they used it to lay down heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions and then you tell me they didn't use it as LMG. i wonder what the "traditional LMG" role was again?

and if you use a gun for "heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions", i wonder how a gun that doesn't have changeable barrel and has a whopping 20 round capacity can be effective in that role.

as for the bipod, from what i've read, it was heavy and cumbersome to use, which i assume is the reason why the soldiers just removed it to save the weight. so basically it was another poor feature of the gun.


the problem is that regardless how you look at the BAR, the way it performs in the game compared to other weapons is imbalanced.

i'm sure there wouldn't be a problem if you could shoulder the BAR, dump your 20 rounds mag in direction of enemy, go back in cover to reload and regain some strength to shoulder it again and repeat. the issue is that there isn't ever any reason to do this, because your soldier doesn't care how heavy the BAR is and can shoot while standing just as well as a springfield or garand. except with 20 rounds magazine and full auto capability.

the other side of the problem is that if you say that the weight of BAR isn't enough to not only prevent it from being shouldered, but also fired accurately while shouldered, why the hell can't you do the same thing with type 99/96? are you telling me that a gun that weights 8-9kgs, or double the average rifle can be handled just as easily as said rifle, but if you add 1-2 additional kilograms, it's suddenly too much to shoulder it at all?

again, what in reality was too heavy for rifle and too flawed for LMG, in the game is for some reason best of the both worlds. and keep in mind USA already has a significant edge in firepower even without it.

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

*dying so much to not bring hipfire ptrd conversation into this as i watched that video.

And that was one shot. Try multiple especially full auto with the BAR. Probably after the 2nd shot you wont be hitting anywhere near the target medium to long range.

common guys, all i wanted was hipfire inaccurate shot. sry had to do it. If i didnt get what i requested on a similar topic and people are answer the same, then neither will he.

What does the ptrs have to do with this thread? We are talking about the B.A.R.

so in the first part of your post you tell me they used it to lay down heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions and then you tell me they didn't use it as LMG. i wonder what the "traditional LMG" role was again?

and if you use a gun for "heavy amounts of fully automatic fire on enemy positions", i wonder how a gun that doesn't have changeable barrel and has a whopping 20 round capacity can be effective in that role.

as for the bipod, from what i've read, it was heavy and cumbersome to use, which i assume is the reason why the soldiers just removed it to save the weight. so basically it was another poor feature of the gun.


the problem is that regardless how you look at the BAR, the way it performs in the game compared to other weapons is imbalanced.

i'm sure there wouldn't be a problem if you could shoulder the BAR, dump your 20 rounds mag in direction of enemy, go back in cover to reload and regain some strength to shoulder it again and repeat. the issue is that there isn't ever any reason to do this, because your soldier doesn't care how heavy the BAR is and can shoot while standing just as well as a springfield or garand. except with 20 rounds magazine and full auto capability.

the other side of the problem is that if you say that the weight of BAR isn't enough to not only prevent it from being shouldered, but also fired accurately while shouldered, why the hell can't you do the same thing with type 99/96? are you telling me that a gun that weights 8-9kgs, or double the average rifle can be handled just as easily as said rifle, but if you add 1-2 additional kilograms, it's suddenly too much to shoulder it at all?

again, what in reality was too heavy for rifle and too flawed for LMG, in the game is for some reason best of the both worlds. and keep in mind USA already has a significant edge in firepower even without it.

I think the B.A.R. in game is close to how marines used it irl. And it makes sense to add it to the game because it was common unlike some other guns in game.

As for your comment on the Type 96/99, there Isnt really a good place to Hold on to it like there is with a B.A.R.

 

[Seamie]

Cool pics. I didn't know that was actually a thing. I thought it was some made up upgrade non-sense like the unlocked scope on the G 41 (W).

G41 W receivers were milled for scope mounts.

 

[Jpz38 Hetzer]

G41 W receivers were milled for scope mounts.

I was talking about the second unlock that couldnt possibly be at stalingrad, the 1944 model, not the eye relief sight you get at first.