Allied strength on the western front??

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silent assassin

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Oct 27, 2007
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Just seen the proposed release date for DH, cant wait btw!

This got me thinking. During the Normandy campaign i can only ever find stuff out about d-day & not much else such as tank engagements. All i have to go on are cod & moh which dont paint an accurate picture at all. How will the Tanks play out against each other? What were the main german tanks used duing the time after d-day in the west , were the panzerschrek/bazooka commonly found during the conflict & are we going to underestimate the power of american tanks?
 
M

MAXX

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Jul 21, 2006
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silent assassin said:
Just seen the proposed release date for DH, cant wait btw!

This got me thinking. During the Normandy campaign i can only ever find stuff out about d-day & not much else such as tank engagements. All i have to go on are cod & moh which dont paint an accurate picture at all. How will the Tanks play out against each other? What were the main german tanks used duing the time after d-day in the west , were the panzerschrek/bazooka commonly found during the conflict & are we going to underestimate the power of american tanks?
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There were plenty of tank battles in the west. For example, you can consult the American official history. It recounts many large armored engagements and observes that at the ranges the occurred in the hedgerows, Shermans and bazookas were pretty effective.
 
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ExoCet-NAW

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Feb 17, 2006
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Major tank battles in Normandy mainly occurred between British and Canadian forces and the Germans.

Operation Goodwood, (Le Mesnil Patry and Cagny) were large tank engagements, British and Canadian respectivley.

US tanks battles were smaller engagements rather than full out battles.
The terrain in Normandy with the Bocage hedgerows made out and out tank battles near impossible as you could not see what was is the next field never mind a mile away. So Normandy was more Combined arms fighting with tanks supporting Infantry.

once clear of the Bocage countryside. the area was more condusive to tank warfare, then as stated earlier US forces used air power and artillery which really took it's toll on the German tank units.
 
Gnasher

Gnasher

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Jul 24, 2006
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Don't forget Operations Epsom & Bluecoat before & after Goodwood. Both of these had major tanks battles when British VIII & XXX Corps took on 1st SS Panzer Corps (1st & 12 SS Panzer divisions) & 2nd SS Panzer Corps (9th & 10 SS Panzer Divs).
 
[TW]Wilsonam

[TW]Wilsonam

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Oct 17, 2005
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As a rough comparison...

The Germans were running a wide mix of armor, the bulk being Pz IV models with the longer 75mm gun, plus a good number of Panthers and some Tigers. Also good numbers of StuGs with the long 75mm guns. The Pz IV was arguably a slightly "bigger hitter" than the Shermans. The Panthers and Tigers heavily outclassed them! Here in the western theater, the Tiger is still a monster :)

The US were mostly equipped with the standard Shermans (medium 75mm gun) and the Stuart light tank (37mm gun). Both were rather under-gunned for facing heavier German tanks and rather lightly armored. This is partly countered by their speed across country, partly by their numbers. They soon began to field their own Tank Destroyers, equipped with the heavier guns (3"/76mm and later 90mm) to counter the heavier German armor.

The Brits (and Canadians) fielded the Sherman, plus Stuart as a base. They had also created the Sherman Va "Firefly" after their encounters with the Tiger in North Africa. This fielded a more powerful 17pdr gun - a long 76mm gun, far more capable of handling the heavier German armor. They also fielded a bunch of home-grown tanks, such as the Churchill and Valentine.

The Allies had numbers - but they tended to use them poorly in the earlier massed engagements, getting shot up by the Germans in strong defensive positions. It took a little while to learn the lessons...

In terms of a one-on-one, the Allies have to be careful. Most German armor can handle most Allied tanks face-on, although the Pz IV is relatively vulnerable too. Taking on Panthers and Tigers from the front will be suicidal :)

The Allies will have to use speed and maneuver to deal with the German armor, but should have numbers on their side. The Tigers are far more vulnerable from the sides and rear... but the Panther will always be hard - gang up on it! The Sherman Firefly is one ace up the Allies' sleeve - use it well!

The Americans also have an important weapon up their sleeve - the bazooka. Used wisely, it can make a mess of any German tank. Have to be brave too, of course!

Of course, watch out for the damn Krauts and their Panzerfausts!

Certainly looking forward to see how the whole thing plays out... good luck, guys!
 
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18Bravo

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Oct 31, 2006
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Eh, what about the; sherman jumbos, m10 wolverines, m7 priests, the m18 hellcats, and the m36 jacksons? I think right around the end of the war, some shermans had 105mm howitzers in them.
 
M

MAXX

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18Bravo said:
Eh, what about the; sherman jumbos, m10 wolverines, m7 priests, the m18 hellcats, and the m36 jacksons? I think right around the end of the war, some shermans had 105mm howitzers in them.
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I don't think you'd want to go Tiger hunting with anything with less muzzle
velocity than a 76mm/ 3-inch gun....of course the 17 pdr is a 76mm bore gun as well.
 
Brigadista

Brigadista

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Mar 31, 2008
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ive never liked it when the 17 pounder is likened to a 76mm, it a much more powerful gun and was more than a match for a tiger as villers bocage proved
 
M

MAXX

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Brigadista said:
ive never liked it when the 17 pounder is likened to a 76mm, it a much more powerful gun and was more than a match for a tiger as villers bocage proved
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Actually Wittman and the other tigers were all knocked out by 6 pdrs at Villers-Bocage.
 
RedGuardist

RedGuardist

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Oh yeah. The plane was Typhoon in that fighter bomber theory, not P-47. I wonder where I got that P-47 in my mind.
 
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RedGuardist

RedGuardist

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Thanks Nestor! :) Very informative post. And it seems that the case is closed, really. You learn something new everyday. :)
 
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Nestor Makhno

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Personally, I am not sure the truth will ever be known. The turret of Wittmann's tiger was blown off, according to the evidence of one of his own unit. Presumably this was caused by the 88 shells in his tiger 'cooking off'.

Ekins gives fairly convincing testimony of at least hitting several tigers but, from that distance, it would be difficult to know if your shell hitting a tank and it brewing up a short time later were directly related.

I have to say that, on that trip to St Aignan/Cintheaux, I was pretty keen for Joe Ekins' story to turn out to be true (as he was a Brit and the story of a guy in his first week of active service as a tanker taking out the mighty Wittmann appeals to my sense of supporting the underdog). I am not too familiar with what the Canadians claim - I simply have not read their reports.

As it happens my trip raised more questions than it answered - mostly to do with who could see what, where and when. I have tried to solve this by recreating the terrain in ROEd but the original project that this was part of seems to have gone a bit cold in the minds of other participants.

So, I would say it is still a mystery - there were shells flying all over the place that morning as the Germans attempted to counter-attack, both across the field and also a large force along le petit Ravine. The fog of war is always with us.

having said all that, I eagerly await the Hollywood film in which it turns out it was a GI who took Wittman out with his trusty M1 carbine. :rolleyes:
 
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