Addition to spawning with enemy weapons

[Colt .45 killer]

At some point the player will be able to unlock enemy weapons and spawn with them.

I would like to suggest one amendment to that.

Players have a % chance to spawn with a selected enemy weapon, getting to a higher level can increase that chance. The actual % chance of spawning with said weapon is up to the developers, but I would set the range somewhere in 5% - 20%.



why?

This way spawning with an enemy weapon would not be guaranteed, and would be more of a treat for the player.

One could also explain it in that it's more realistic that not all soldiers would pick up an enemy weapon. So out of X soldiers at Y level of experience approximately Z of them would have had a chance to aquire an enemy weapon and choose to do so. ( which this simulates, keeping in mind as it is now you could fight an entire round with russian or german weapons once players reach a certain level ).

Lastly this cuts down on the chance of overuse and ensures that the kit of the German or Russian teams is more or less their respective gear.


Your thoughts?

 

[teemu92]

I agree with you, i think that making it a chance rather than a sure thing when you level up to a certain point is better. If you could just take the opposite sides weapon right away the side you play would be pretty much the same, if you had all guns on both sides.

 

[Extension7]

Percentage never works in games like this, I doubt people like gambling for something when they spawn.

IMO This feature of unlocking enemy weapons shouldn't be in the game period, even if there is an option to rule it out.

I'm guessing it's rather hard to unlock enemy weapons for certain classes

Actually that brings up another question, will we be able to use unlocks for our weapons in the opposite team?

For instance if I play Russia and unlock the drum for my PPSH41, will it be available if I play as Germany and unlocked the PPSH41 for my character on Germany? If so, that kinda sucks =|

 

[LightsabeR]

Hmm. Well, I've never been a big fan of random chance.

Maybe whether or not a player can choose to spawn with the opposing sides weapon could depend on some other, more strict variable?

Let's say a max of 2 enemy weapons per squad. And the players within the squad who can choose to pick enemy weapons to spawn with would depend on how well they are doing in the current round. If either of them chooses to not use an enemy weapon, the opportunity would get passed down to the next player.



One more thought I just had. How about you get to choose to spawn with an enemy weapon IF you kill an enemy. On top of that you can only pick the exact weapon that the opponent you killed was carrying.

Haven't thought this one through, so there's bound to be some issues I'm overlooking (or maybe it's just a bad idea ).

Edit:
Yes, I know, way too late to make such big game design suggestions.

 

[Wesreidau]

Having to grind your way up in the German assault class far enough to unlock a Papasha, then grind that weapon far enough for a drum magazine, should be sufficient to keep the number of drum-magazined Papasha wielding Fritzes to a historically plausible level. At least that gun was exceptionally popular with the Germans, with 7.63x25mm Mauser ammo being distributed to be fired from the caputred weapons. Personally I like the control of an MP-40, so here's at least one German who won't be mistaken for a Popov at night.

 

[Nikita]

Perhaps instead of a percentage chance of spawning with a certain weapon, a player could deliberately choose once every 10, 15, or 20 or so spawns to spawn with a rare or enemy weapon twice in a row.

My reasoning is that randomization doesn't necessarily account for spur-of-the-moment gameplay needs. For example, if I was a German assault trooper defending an open area as the first cap, I'd be annoyed at spawning with a PPSh due to random chance instead of the more controllable MP-40. The same goes for if I was to be assaulting a CQB capzone--I might prefer a friendly weapon to avoid accidental tk's as a result of the sound of my captured, enemy firearm. And if I was a Soviet Auto-rifleman, I'd be quite annoyed to spawn with the bayonet-less, slower-reloading G41. IRL in both cases, I'd leave my hard-won captured firearm behind in exchange for the more suitable (and presumably available) friendly option before even leaving for the frontline.

This may involve "guaranteeing" spawn with a certain weapon, but if random chance is implemented, I can only imagine that some frustration will result. Taking a game factor out of a player's control is usually a controversial decision--that's why RO2 doesn't feature weapon jamming, for one. I like your thinking, it's just that there are other ways to keep weapon loadouts reasonable across the board while treating experienced players.

As for the twice-in-a-row rule, that simply prevents spawn camping/random artillery/other bad luck from forcing a player to wait until their next chance to use an enemy weapon.

TW has asked for our trust and reassured us repeatedly that rare and enemy weapons will be just that: rare. I don't think my ideas above were implemented, and at this point in development they most certainly won't be, but I'll be interested to see how they make that the case!

 

[Wesreidau]

I don't like the idea of having a 20% chance to get what I earned and asked for any more than a one-in-five spawns promise to get what I earned and asked for. I'd much rather just earn what I want and us it when I want to.

 

[LightsabeR]

Nikita, really like your idea.

Having to grind your way up in the German assault class far enough to unlock a Papasha, then grind that weapon far enough for a drum magazine, should be sufficient to keep the number of drum-magazined Papasha wielding Fritzes to a historically plausible level.

Only at first. Even if the time it takes to unlock and fully upgrade an enemy weapon that you can spawn with is very long (let's say 200 hours of only following that certain path), eventually, let's say in half a year, there would be quite a few people who had the option available for them. In a year, most people would be able to pick and choose any weapon they like, no matter what side they are on.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Note that you would select your normal weapon ie K98K then tick a check box to try and spawn with a mosin. It would never force you to spawn with an opposing force weapon.

All good ideas being posted here, thanks for the dialogue. Yeah Lightsaber I had hoped to make it a 'smaller' change so that it might squeek in before release or get added soon after.


One per squad also sounds good. Given 4 - 8 man squads that would mean 8 - 4 max enemy weapons on a full 64 player server.


edit:

As an aside at the original idea that could be modified so that you have X% chance to unlock a use of that weapon per life. SO when you are in the respawn Queue a dialogue might appear saying "press X to spawn with a PPSH". Not using it would preserve it so you could save it for later in the round.

 

[Mosin]

I like Nikita's idea honestly. I don't see the point in wanting to spawn with an enemy weapon though when you could just play on the team that has the same weapon as standard issue lol.

 

[Actin]

Note that you would select your normal weapon ie K98K then tick a check box to try and spawn with a mosin. It would never force you to spawn with an opposing force weapon.

All good ideas being posted here, thanks for the dialogue. Yeah Lightsaber I had hoped to make it a 'smaller' change so that it might squeek in before release or get added soon after.


One per squad also sounds good. Given 4 - 8 man squads that would mean 8 - 4 max enemy weapons on a full 64 player server.


edit:

As an aside at the original idea that could be modified so that you have X% chance to unlock a use of that weapon per life. SO when you are in the respawn Queue a dialogue might appear saying "press X to spawn with a PPSH". Not using it would preserve it so you could save it for later in the round.

You just beat me with the first argument. You could be 'nominated' for a russian weapon.

Also I like your edit idea about saving the weapon for later

 

[Wesreidau]

I'm still soundly against this. If you want to spawn with a weapon you unlocked for the class you're playing, you should get that weapon when you ask for it. No two ways about it. For those not wanting to ever see captured weapons, there's a server option. For those wanting to incorporate a 'feature' like this, there are server mutators. The game out of the box should not force me to use a weapon I don't want after I've earned the weapon I do want if I'm already playing the class for it.

 

[Reise]

Yeah lets trivialize it to the point where you would still just be better off grabbing it from a dead body.

People should really wait and see how some of the game's features play out before suggesting a change on how they work.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

You can cut back on the hostility Reise.


@Wesreidau

All good points. What would your take be on 1 per squad / fireteam?

 

[Wesreidau]

Well I suppose the reasoning is that you want most Germans using German guns and most Russians using Russian guns. But most Germans will be preferring MG-34's, Mausers, C96's and only the SVT/AVT and PPSh should sway them. Likewise, most Russians will be preferring their SVT/AVTs, PPSh's, Mosins and only be using stolen MG-34's. A player who really really likes a certain gun and doesn't want to play for weeks or months to unlock it will go ahead and play the army that uses it. And event here, some players might prefer the MP-40 or G-41 on principle or practical reasons. So I don't think the scenario you seem to be working from, that every German SMG gunner will use a PPSh because its is 'better', will arise. If it does arise a few months or even years into the game it can be dealt with there using server mutators. So for the first few months at least, I don't think we need to worry about this. It might frustrate players to not be able to use what they unlock and turn them off to the progression system.

 

[Dorka]

I think this is an interesting topic - I can think of a few potential ways to do it. I do really like the sound of what Colt .45 Killer said, but some other ideas:
Squad /team limits, individual player limits per round or per X number of respawns / score. Perhaps even after your team captures an enemy point, your squad / team limit of respawns with an enemy weapon will reset. Each team could have a "stockpile" of enemy weapons, which players could use, (perhaps higher ranks getting first preference or access). Once your team has used them up, you must earn more by capturing enemy points (and perhaps by other means too). I'll be interested to see how TW will implement the use of captured weapons. I'm confident it will be sensible and work well, so I'm not worried. I'm very glad it will be in the game, I think it would be unrealistic not to have it in. I've read about Russian riflemen using captured MP-40s in the absence of enough of their own sub machine guns, and very often Russian machine gunners using captured German machine guns. Obviously it was very common for the Germans to use captured Russian PPSH 41s etc.

 

[KarmakazeNZ]

I have been following RO2 second hand (Rifte has been filling me in) but I must have missed this or maybe it has never been answered: How do you go about unlocking the ability to spawn with enemy weapons?

To me, you should have to rank up with the enemy weapon in some way first. By this I mean that if you want to unlock the PPSH as a German, you should first have to capture and use it as a German. Once you have captured a PPSH in battle say 5 times and got 5 kills (for example) then you can spawn with it as a German.

Basically, you have to prove you can capture them at will in battle before you are just given them at spawn.

Is that how it works?

 

[Extension7]

How do you go about unlocking the ability to spawn with enemy weapons?

I think you just have to excel in that class.

So if I was a German Assault Troop class, and I always play this class, if I excel in this class in all types of ways (kills, team work, capturing) I assume you get the option to use a PPSH 41 as a reward.

Now if I switched to a Russian Assault Troop, I don't think I'd be able to see an MP40 as an option for me, I think its army specific (tell me if I'm wrong).

 

[SingeDebile]

+1

 

[johncage]

Luck based systems are for rpg grindfests. In an fps, if you press a button that does one thing, it should always do that thing unless there is intervention or sabotage from fellow players and observable environmental effects.

Arbitrary percentages do not interest me in a gameplay mechanical sense.