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Accuracy needs to be reduced on ALL the weapons ingame

Hoak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2006
214
110
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I agree with the general sense that the way the game is played, and game-play progresses is not particularly realistic; in fact very unrealistic in many if not most cases. However some of the deconstruction here as to why that is in terms of understanding real weapon handling and WW II weapon performance is at best...uninformed. Native weapon accuracy, and recoil performance of the weapons depicted in the game is in fact fairly to-scale and good execution on Tripwire's part.

Problem as I see it is not actually the accuracy of the weapons as they are very accurate(especially rifles) but the fact that the soldier is able to raise his weapon so that his sight through the Iron Sights is always perfect. If that makes any sense to you. It's like a computer which is taught that 1+1 is 2 and never makes a mistake(bad example but hopefully you catch my drift)
Epoksi's excellent point offers an example of just one one aspect of realism that has no analog in games; our sight picture is instantly and automatically aligned for us in games so this dimension of skill in the 'shooter, weapon, skill' platform is totally absent from the game.

The problem here is in the real world, this is a learned skill that has a lot of Shooter variation; some can line up a shot very quickly but are only average Marksmenship with respect to consistency; while others may take more time to line up a shot, but almost never miss -- and there everything in between and outside of that creating a lot of additional variation to ranged Marksmanship performance.

The Posters here are correct that point out that the player metrics of windedness (breathlessness after a sprint and recovery time), breath hold (it does take an absolute minimum of 3 to 6 seconds for a degraded Solider to recover between shots), and movement recover (when you're prone or resting a weapon and traverse your line of fire for a new shot it takes time to realign yourself and your weapon to take another shot) -- all of these are only marginally represented or have almost no effect in RO2...

But there are additional metrics not, or poorly represented in RO2 besides weapon displacement due to movement, settling in to a fire position, and breathing control: we also have virtually infinite turning speed, and very very fast turning speed even when moving... Rapidly turning with a long rifle, especially on the move, is virtually impossible, and fast target acquisition should be out of the question. Even with SMGs and handguns turning speed should realistically limit fast target acquisition to a range of motion of less then 30 degrees, and add additional settle time and weapon sway outside of that, as increased range of torso rotation or change of stance outside that radically increases time to accurate fire on target.

Lastly all of these fictional player skill metrics mediate real player skill, and fictional player skills should be the same for everyone; we should not be able to for example 'level up' and 'win' magic casino prizes of that gives us magic infinite turning speed, or infinite breath hold capability, or anything different to the challenges other Players confront so everyone confronts a the same contest in terms of real skill challenge.

:IS2:
 
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FBOTheLiuetenant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
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www.righttorule.com
Hoak, very good post. I would love to see that level of detail taken into account for weapon handling, it might go directly against what TW was trying to accomplish (make the game more accessible). Perhaps the easiet to implement would be to force the player to reallign thier weapon upon turning beyond a certain amount. Or to have aiming senstivity or speed be dependant on the weight/size of the weapon you are carrying.
 
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Hoak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2006
214
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Perhaps the easiet to implement would be to force the player to reallign thier weapon upon turning beyond a certain amount. Or to have aiming senstivity or speed be dependant on the weight/size of the weapon you are carrying.
Those are really good, and original ideas!

:)
 

Velico

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
24
19
0
Hoak, very good post. I would love to see that level of detail taken into account for weapon handling, it might go directly against what TW was trying to accomplish (make the game more accessible). Perhaps the easiet to implement would be to force the player to reallign thier weapon upon turning beyond a certain amount. Or to have aiming senstivity or speed be dependant on the weight/size of the weapon you are carrying.
I've posted this in different sections around the suggestions board, it seems we are highlighting a similar theme.

There has been quite a bit of talk in adjusting the accuracy, which I'm all for. But I thought of another option to remedy the laser beams people are pulling off in this game currently.

What I term as "responsive sway" I've described thus:
Depending on where you're looking, and what stance you are in, there should be a response in the sway of your weapon when you quickly adjust to a person moving in your periphery. So, say for instance you're looking off into the 1-o-clock position and you notice an enemy moving from right to left at your 10-o-clock, as you reposition your gun to take aim on him, there should be a response as if you were moving in real life which would take into consideration slight adjustments in your body movement, and account for that in the sway of the weapon. Depending on how far you're moving the weapon, and how quickly you do it, will adjust the amount of sway and the prolonged effect it will have on your accuracy when you take aim.

I know that when I am firing my K98k in real life, even if it is braced on something, when I shift targets there is a bit of "settling" time that takes place as I reposition myself to take an accurate shot.

What this would do for gameplay is quite simple, increase the survivability of advancing troops while leaving the accuracy of the weapon in tact, just taking into consideration human variables that are presently unaccounted for. It would give a bit more of a chance of an actual firefight.

I understand the need to find a "happy medium" between ROOST and RO2 because ROOST was notorious for having a steep learning curve and warding people off. However, in its current state, gameplay is suffering and it's far too easy to pull of incredibly hard shots.
 

FBOTheLiuetenant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
640
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www.righttorule.com
Just thought of something else. In the game, when you turn your character enough, you hear them reposition their feet. Something similar could be done with aiming, when you reach the point where your character has to reposition their entire body you should also have a simple animation of them re-aligning their firearm. It shouldn't be as extreme as forcing the player to iron sight all over again, but a short interruption to the ability to contantly aim perfectly aligned.
 

Sgt.NightFire

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 26, 2006
717
123
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The Kar98 and Mosin Nagant were one of the most accurate weapons of WWII, no wonder they got distributed so much back than and got sniper versions of the weapons. They should be accurate.
 

palco

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
123
72
0
How about making "aim down the sight" function a little slower right after running or turning your body more than certaine degrees while leaving the accuracy of gun itself intact?

Or could add sway penalty right after running or sudden reposition of body would be realistic
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
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Rather than tweak accuracy too much they should increase the difficulty in landing consecutive shots on target. So if you're good you can make lots of decent shots with bursts or controlled sway or can settle the gun well after firing 1 shot. Zoom is bad enough, don't need easy style shooting mechanics too
 

FBOTheLiuetenant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
640
104
0
www.righttorule.com
Rather than tweak accuracy too much they should increase the difficulty in landing consecutive shots on target. So if you're good you can make lots of decent shots with bursts or controlled sway or can settle the gun well after firing 1 shot. Zoom is bad enough, don't need easy style shooting mechanics too
This.

I dont think the accuracy of the weapons themselves should be tweaked. But possibly making it harder to aim consitantly under very specific conditions. I was playing as an AT gunner earlier, and think that is a good example of what I'm trying to suggest. The way that deployable weapons take a second to quickly re-deploy after turning a certain number of degrees could be applied to other firearms. This would keep players from spinning 360 degrees and making a snap shot. They would still be able to do so, but their sights would not be perfectly aligned after turning that much.
 

Hoak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2006
214
110
0
Rather than tweak accuracy too much they should increase the difficulty in landing consecutive shots on target. So if you're good you can make lots of decent shots with bursts or controlled sway or can settle the gun well after firing 1 shot. Zoom is bad enough, don't need easy style shooting mechanics too
Yes, I think most agree that the native weapon accuracy is fine but it's weapon handling that presents issues that negatively effect the quality and realism of game play.

Related to burst, and rapid fire negatively impacting Marksmanship accuracy, is the metric of 'Shooter Fatigue' that does not appear to be modeled (at least noticeably) in the game...

Anyone that has fired high caliber rifles regularly knows that even after just a few magazines of ammunition you need a rest; the noise, shock from recoil (and it's a reasonable assumption that Eastern Front Soldiers being bony and slight of frame suffered more) wears you out and effects your accuracy -- the Rifleman's RSI... Shooter fatigue was one of the reasons that smaller caliber cartridges were explored.

I don't feel the game need dramatic changes for a strong positive impact on game-play, in fact very subtle changes to existing metrics can probably have enough of the kind of effect sought by most posting to this thread...

:IS2:
 

Blake[Kyllikki]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 5, 2011
21
6
0
kyllikki.fi
Increased weapons sway for rifles while standing or crouching plus generally decreased accuracy for SMGs and I'd be fine. Sprinting out of breath should also affect your gun aiming significantly.
 
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Nebfer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 23, 2006
384
11
0
From what I can see what I would do is

Use a modified sway from RO 1

Standing and aiming a Rifle would have it steady for say ~7 seconds, then it starts to say, this should give you enough time to aim and fire a shot.
kneeling should have the time increased to ~10 seconds, as the position is a bit more stable.
Prone should have it stable for at lest 15 seconds, being the most stable.
Once it starts swaying it should slowly increase over say 5 to 10 seconds.
Also with low stamina (after the 100m sprint) these times should be cut in half (or more).

Also a slight sway should be done after rapid weapons movement, particularly if the weapon is under irons. but only for a second or two to allow the "avatar" to aline his sights.
 

LOOY

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 12, 2009
69
25
0
To be honest, most of the problems I have with being sniped by rifles comes from maps like FallenFighters with little cover and lots of windows that I could be shot from with no flanking routes. It's a non-issue on maps like Barracks where I can stay out of exposed areas and double back and flank if a rifleman has me pinned.

I think Bolters need a slight sway increase and semi/assault rifles need a larger sway increase (not enough to make medium/close range shooting hard). These sway changes should effect all stances/bracing positions otherwise people are just going to camp even more to rest their weapons on stuff.

A lot of people want stamina to effect sway more, I think this would really slow down gameplay and the stamina system is fine as it is. People coming out of sprint and instantly fireing a shot isn't exactly realistic, but it's fairly balanced. It takes a moment or two to cancel the sprint during which time you are a sitting duck.
 

Herr Leutnant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
4
1
0
I don't really see the issue here. If any of you have fired an actual Mosin Nagant or Kar. 98k you know both guns are not huge, heavy, pieces of metal. It's not light like an M4, but your arms are not going to fall off. They could tweak the sway a little, but it's really not realistic to be waving your rifle all over the screen. I am a small man, I'm sure soldiers could handle the weapons even better then I can. The weapons are also very accurate in real life, I have no problem hitting a man sized target at 200 meters, and even less at the usual 100 meter engagement ranges in this game.
 
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Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
40
6
0
As many have said before me, adding realistic sway to rifles after they have been held up for some time would add so much to immersion and realism. I mean c'mon. Weapons in WW2 were all wood and steel, extremely heavy and impossible to aim like you can in this game. You can hold your rifle up forever and not get tired.

I kinda have to agree with the OP, this really adds to the "camping" although what Nenjin said is also true.
+1


And instroduce gun jams, and have LESS precisions for semiauto rifles.
Sometimes though, killing people at 50-80m with an smg feels like cheating :D
 

Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
40
6
0
I don't really see the issue here. If any of you have fired an actual Mosin Nagant or Kar. 98k you know both guns are not huge, heavy, pieces of metal. It's not light like an M4, but your arms are not going to fall off. They could tweak the sway a little, but it's really not realistic to be waving your rifle all over the screen. I am a small man, I'm sure soldiers could handle the weapons even better then I can. The weapons are also very accurate in real life, I have no problem hitting a man sized target at 200 meters, and even less at the usual 100 meter engagement ranges in this game.
I have a 98K, and yes you will hit a "man sized" target with it at 100m, but hitting it again and again from prone versus being able to stand for more than 1min holding it up will add a LOT of sway.
No man is capable of holding a rifle freehand for a prolonged time without it swaying more and more.
Remember this is not a shooting gallery simulation, it's supposed to be soldiers in the thick of battle... not robots holding it up.
 

Herr Leutnant

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
4
1
0
Well yea but I don't think many people playing RO aim freehand out of cover for very long. Typically you get shot before the sway would kick in. Maybe I'm playing it more realistically then I need to though.
 

Hoak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2006
214
110
0
I don't really see the issue here. If any of you have fired an actual Mosin Nagant or Kar. 98k you know both guns are not huge, heavy, pieces of metal. It's not light like an M4, but your arms are not going to fall off. They could tweak the sway a little, but it's really not realistic to be waving your rifle all over the screen. I am a small man, I'm sure soldiers could handle the weapons even better then I can. The weapons are also very accurate in real life, I have no problem hitting a man sized target at 200 meters, and even less at the usual 100 meter engagement ranges in this game.
Yes, you are of course correct; but I think the objection of most posting here is to the rapid pace of: instant sprint, to instant fire position, to rapid accurate fire on target; that there seems to be little differentiation between standing, crouched, prone, supported and winded fire as far as mean time to a stable sight picture, accuracy, or the real player skill required to make the shot.

Sure I can probably stand and hold a heavier M1 on target for over an hour, but, sprint full bore (in heavy wool, canvas and leather garb, freezing my *ss off, sick and hungry no less) with even a medium load of crap, instantly stop, turn 100 degrees and snap off an accurate shot? Possible? Sure, it's a matter of life and death... Easy and common? Doubtful that it was as easy or common on the Eastern Front as it is in RO2...

:(
 
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Roska

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2006
12
0
0
The uniforms aren't that heavy, silly! More than that, the combat gear of average Fritz and Ivan ws a lot lighter than modern combat gear is.

My full combat gear weighs 38 kilos, not including the daypack I might need to carry sometimes. Part of this weight is my rifle, which weighs (with ACOG sight) 5,5 kilos. I've held it up for 6 minutes straight while firing at targets (30 rounds, after that I just had to hold it up). Some of my mates held it up for 10 minutes, I couldn't be bothered. And this was done standing.

I also own a finnish Nagant variant and have fired a Kar98K more than enough (I also own a rifled musket, which is relatively accurate all the way to 250-300 meters).

But this is all irrelevant. You can never have full realism when playing PC games, so some of the decisions have to made based on gameplay. I do agree that there should be slight sway when you aim the weapons, but kneeling and aiming is actually quite easy and there is barely any swaying.

The only thing that stops me personally kneeling forever IRL is the fact that I'm so stiff that it gets painful :D

Add some sway, don't take the accuracy out.

By the way, a thing I forgot to mention... old rifles are easier to aim standing than modern rifles because a lot of the weight is on your forward arm. The shorter modern rifles are slower to aim accurately than longer rifles because the weight is on the rear arm, thus adding sway and not having a "steady" support in the front.
 

USSZim

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2011
26
1
0
I think people saying holding a rifle and not having it sway after a few seconds have never held a rifle. I have an M1 Garand and it gets pretty heavy quickly. Especially with the bayonet on. Adding a bayonet is like putting a rock on the end, it's not fun. Since most people have bayonets, the time before it starts to sway should be like 5-7 seconds.