About RO Ladder Closing

[HellsJanitor]

Seems appropriate.

"Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

Bob Dylan - Times They are a-Changin - YouTube

 

[dogbadger]

It would be like punching your girlfriend in the face and then asking her to give you a kiss right after - it just doesn't work.

I beg to differ

 

[Machinist]

All of there reasons are thin and laughable with this in my opinion being the real reason

To conclude, we regret that Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad was not the game we expected at release

The ever-shrinking player base has caused many new and old clans to fold and activity has now reached an almost-total standstill.

i agree with them, but when it comes to the lack of developer support as i find TW have included alot of stuff in RO2 which most developers dont such as DICE in BF3 and IW with MW3, what else do they want when TW are giving them prize money, they have punkbuster and other tools, they sound lazy to be honest.

But theres no point in a tournament with RO2 currently at all. Its totally pointless.

 

[Reise]

I think what many players wanted to hear fairly soon after release was at least some acknowledgement that there was a ton of discontent about gameplay, just as there was discontent about rough performance and bugs. Performance took over as seemingly the only consideration, and we went about 6 months without any mention of specific gameplay changes that might be on the way, despite blatantly obvious discontent. By that time most of my friends who paid and bought for RO2 had jumped ship from the community --many of which have been playing since the mod days.

All that dedication gone in mere months.

Something tells me the repeated delays and setbacks before RO2 was even in its beta stages made peoples' expectations so astronomically high that the game could have never pleased everyone. I think those of us who still stick around were ready for that, and those who just left because of a list of frivolous things which will no doubt be fixed in time, just weren't with the program to begin with.

I remember the mod days too, and here's why I don't totally blame Tripwire for this mess: If I hadn't seen the dedication they show toward their work then, there's no way I'd pay attention to RO2 now. Playercounts weren't always massive in the mod either, and it took a LOT of polish before we even saw the additions that made it into Combined Arms. What the game became is what drew people in. It's a constant WIP situation, and I think that's going to filter out its playerbase and edge us back to that super-niche community we had before Ostfront was out.

Then if they're smart they'll make the game visible again to the public once it's refined, and we'll get things on track again. I just don't see why people would completely quit cold turkey on RO2, let alone attack Tripwire like they're incompetent, especially considering their history of excellent support.

 

[Amerikaner]

I remember the mod days too, and here's why I don't totally blame Tripwire for this mess: If I hadn't seen the dedication they show toward their work then, there's no way I'd pay attention to RO2 now. Playercounts weren't always massive in the mod either, and it took a LOT of polish before we even saw the additions that made it into Combined Arms. What the game became is what drew people in. It's a constant WIP situation, and I think that's going to filter out its playerbase and edge us back to that super-niche community we had before Ostfront was out.

Then if they're smart they'll make the game visible again to the public once it's refined, and we'll get things on track again. I just don't see why people would completely quit cold turkey on RO2, let alone attack Tripwire like they're incompetent, especially considering their history of excellent support.

You can't expect people to give anywhere near the same leeway for a retail product as they did a mod. Also, after 10 years or so of developing RO you would expect a much greater deal of polish of official releases and a stronger sense of direction. Unfortunately, its the opposite. I'm one of the only old guys from my group who still praises the game for the merits it does have but lets not kid ourselves, this game is in nowhere near as solid shape as it should be right now and after a certain point you can't just give a pass to the devs over and over again.

 

[Reise]

I thought that was why they priced it so cheaply.

Even after seeing the beta I wasn't expecting massive improvements right away. And lets not forget about KF, I can't imagine they spent all of that time between Ostfront and now solely working on RO2.

 

[CrossTrain]

I don't have any more pluses, but Reise, I APPLAUD your perspective. The little I know of TWI and their games is reflected in your words.

This community is utterly disappointing...

 

[Amerikaner]

I thought that was why they priced it so cheaply.

Even after seeing the beta I wasn't expecting massive improvements right away. And lets not forget about KF, I can't imagine they spent all of that time between Ostfront and now solely working on RO2.

More excuses. You can keep them coming but excuses don't make the game better. That's the bottomline.

 

[hockeywarrior]

I thought that was why they priced it so cheaply.

Lol you're saying they priced RO2 below $50 because they wanted to tailor the price to people's low expectations? "People are expecting a buggy release so let's charge less for this game?" Gee, that's far more insulting than anything I've remotely hinted at, if that's what you're saying.

I always saw the lower price point for the game stemming from the fact that RO2 is mostly a multiplayer game without a true fleshed out singleplayer component, and I think it was priced correctly. I think all of us had high quality expectations of RO2 , just as with all TWI products from RO1 to KF. And honestly, I still do.

 

[Machinist]

I had a friend who wouldnt play RO1 because it was dated graphically he didnt see the bigger picture, so i told him get RO2, its a instant buy its going to be a big thing for fps games on the pc screw these console ports. Its out soon.

On release he crashed all the time and couldnt see the server lobby etc, he was raging out, he was like jesus christ waste of money he says alots of people are having these issues he couldnt fix it, about 2 months later we go back on it together as there was major fixes, hes like not impressed as i was going on about massive maps with tanks and halftracks battling ruthlessly for control, people dropping smoke and the defenders making desperate stands in trenches and buildings (as i played alot of DH), i was like well this is apartments its appears to be a inf map for the COD crowd or something no idea why most servers are playing this.

I couldnt find 1 map that had to epicness of RO1 and its MOD's along with the gameplay being alot different, so now i tell him its a investment.

I mean i can wait i have that willpower so to speak, but how can i justify what i said to my friend he basicly thinks im talking out of my *** and i made him waste his money lol... if the game was a true RO1 sequel, i could got more of friends on it, i cant do that with that the game is.

Me personally i have to really be in the mood to play it and see the big picture, im not putting enough hours into RO2 as i should be.

What i just cant understand which bugs me about RO2 is why they went in the direction they did, it gets me angry thinking about it though i respect TW because they are last of a dying breed of non console sell outs, they know what PC gaming should be in a sense. They interact with the community unlike DICE who are EA puppets, lie to you and screw there loyal PC fanbase for money.

But i dont understand why RO2 is like the why it is... its a sad situation.

 

[Grobut]

Prey tell Ramm, what Steam Groups is it that you say the ROL team has created with the express purpose of hating you?

 

[MarioBava]

What I'm wondering in all this, just for perspective: Did RO:Ost come out of the box with all the competitive play features? If not, how long was Ostfront released before competitive play features were added to the game?

 

[Reise]

Lol you're saying they priced RO2 below $50 because they wanted to tailor the price to people's low expectations? "People are expecting a buggy release so let's charge less for this game?" Gee, that's far more insulting than anything I've remotely hinted at, if that's what you're saying.

I always saw the lower price point for the game stemming from the fact that RO2 is mostly a multiplayer game without a true fleshed out singleplayer component, and I think it was priced correctly. I think all of us had high quality expectations of RO2 , just as with all TWI products from RO1 to KF. And honestly, I still do.

What's insulting about it? We knew the state of the game from the betas. Can you imagine how much more pissed people would be if they had paid $50? I don't think I ever heard them saying RO2 was going to be a showstopping AAA title, and they priced it appropriately.

More excuses. You can keep them coming but excuses don't make the game better.

Neither does taking every opportunity to shovel **** at Tripwire.

I can play that game too.

 

[_Dariuszek_]

Let's see what the new guys can come up with. And I strongly suggest that _Dariuszek_ is showing strong support to the game which is so good. Long live RO 2 after all, right?

Do you think I'm blind?
No I'm not!
The point is that this game has no equal, and I really like it.
But I'm not blind, I know every error in this game.
You think It is not hard for me, I mean game with errors?
Read what I wrote below.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=75032[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=75032[/URL]

These errors should be eliminated first, and yes I know game is too "Arcade" but even now game is great and you will not find better game!

Funny thing is that TWI discuss with you, but you don't care.
You know what I have advice for you, go play Battlefield 3 and tell to developers (DICE) that something is wrong with the game

I'm sure they will answer you soon as possible and help you with your problems

I want to tell you about RPG game. Few ppl working on it for years.
When impatient community start argue with them, then they said.

"We doing this game for our own happiness, If you want stay with us you can stay, If not you have free way. When game is ready we will let you know, but for now you have to let us work"

So let TWI work.

I have a strong feeling that ROClassic with Mamayev map will change this game.

 

[Sensemann]

These errors should be eliminated first, and yes I know game is too "Arcade" but even now game is great and you will not find better game!

True, I admit that even. I never said that there was a better game. Unfortunately, we are completely lacking alternatives. The problem is however that the promises pre-release were not kept, as well as statements made, that many old guys think were misleading.

Funny thing is that TWI discuss with you, but you don't care.
You know what I have advice for you, go play Battlefield 3 and tell to developers (DICE) that something is wrong with the game

Sir, first of all, I appreciate TWI discussing with the community. However, as long as changes are not delivered, people tend to worry, and I believe, that's understandable. You say that I "don't care". How would you know? I do care. But I am used to listening to nice stories here and there that in the end don't turn out to be as promised. We wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
2nd, you advice me to go to play Battlefield 3 and discuss with DICE. Why? I have zero interest in BF and only played BF: Vietnam. If I was interested in their product, I would buy it first, before discussing with them about changes.

So let TWI work.
I have a strong feeling that ROClassic with Mamayev map will change this game.

I do let TWI work. I can't remember that I ever showed up at their office to disturb them from work. However, I think everyone that is worrying about the changes being the right ones, or being developed on time, is allowed to state that. Or not?

And I admire you for your optimism. If you think that the RO Classic mode and the map can save the game, stay positive. In fact, I too wish that RO Classic will save the game. But I have the strong feeling that the damage that's been done towards the community and fans of TWI is too big. Player numbers seem to support my feeling.

However, I am still playing RO 2. Not as much as I wish to, but I still somehow have hope.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

I don't think I ever heard them saying RO2 was going to be a showstopping AAA title

I think I remember Alan proclaiming in an Interview on the games convention last year, that RO2 will be better than CoD or BF3...

But the hype the have generated is only tangentially related to the subject. In fact, I do think they did a very good job creating pre-release buzz for the game. Sadly though, like most other studios, they couldn't live up to the hype they created themselves.

Also, I don't think it was the buggy release that broke RO2's back. The core community, which, despite having drawn Ramm's scorn for some bitter posts I made while I was really angry, I still count myself a part of, was used to RO being rough around the edges. I've been around since MOD version 1.2 for UT2k3, so believe me when i say that I had to live with worse iterations of the game that we have now.

The main problem I see is that TWI wanted to escape the niche RO was in. It wanted Ro to become more mainstream. Now that in itself isn't bad, it generates more revenue for RO.
But what was bad was that TWI in general, and Ramm in particular, refused to listen to people who were basically free Beta Testers for 7-8 years, knew the game mechanics expertly, knew the general codebase due to modding activities and knew the needs of a community that wanted to live on. To bad TWI let that community die.

If they had kept the core community alive and happy, there would've been a small but dedicated group of people providing AND populating servers, even if RO2 was and is still flawed in many crucial aspects. But they went on to cater the mainstream public crowds, who lack the passion and patience for a once great product. A public player sees bugs and sees empty, or even worse, solely bot-populated servers and backs out, never to be seen again. So even with high sales, the lack of returning players meant that no new community could emmerge.


Also, someone said we should give TWI a chance. Well, most of us in here have, by shelling out the price of admission to play RO2. In fact, I own the whole TWI game catalogue, because I liked to support TWI. I don't know how else I could've given TWI "a chance". Sadly, they blew it.

Now there's me hoping that RO Classic will be worth my while again, and until that is released, I will not uninstall RO2.


And lastly, a few personal hints to Ramm:

By now, most of the old community knows that you take criticism quite personal and rather than taking it for what it is, an often emotionally charged personal opinion, and just taking out the few useful bits in it, you go to full blown defensive mode. That just heats up the debate. Especially if you stoop down to calling people liars in a public, official statement. While the ROL post was certainly bitter, it did never insult any member of TWI personally. It just stated the situation from ROL's point of view.

So if you hadn't given it this much room to be discussed, by closing the thread about it and reopening the discussion with a statement of yours and no link to the ROL statement (which looks like a rather obvious attempt to tip the public's opinion in your favour), the thread would've been gone from the first page of the forums rather quickly. This way, you just ignited a discussion that can only heat up.

 

[Kerc Kasha]

I do let TWI work. I can't remember that I ever showed up at their office to disturb them from work.

Good idea I might rock up there and start messing with their pots and pans and start bangin on them while I'm at it.

I don't think anyone complaining about RO2's problems hate the game they just want it to be the best it can be. A lot of people are just very frustrated because they felt(and in my opinion, they're right) that they've been ignored for far too long. It isn't like these game play issues are a new thing that have only just been brought to Tripwire's eyes they've been with the game since the beginning. Now their servers are empty - their player base is dwindling and they're finally thinking 'hey maybe those crumbums on the forum who keep making all sorts of racket with pots and pans might be right - there is something wrong'.

That isn't to say that this cesspool is always right and that tripwire should follow them to the letter at all times - that's unrealistic and led to crap like the ridiculous recoil in RO1. But they need to stop acting like everyone is overreacting when they make a complaint.

 

[shadowmoses]

What's insulting about it? We knew the state of the game from the betas. Can you imagine how much more pissed people would be if they had paid $50? I don't think I ever heard them saying RO2 was going to be a showstopping AAA title, and they priced it appropriately.



Neither does taking every opportunity to shovel **** at Tripwire.

I can play that game too.

 

[Das Bose]

I feel how TWI obviously did prior to release, I simply can't be arsed. They can keep their watered down failfest while I enjoy DH waiting for DH2, with some Skyrim and assorted other titles thrown in for padding.

Also I am totally fed up with listening to Mr. Jaeger deny everything and blame everyone else for the fail.


How many times did they say " Trust us "??

One awful decision after another then back to denying everything and blaming the world.

 

[Cyper]

It was intresting to read all this. Its always good to see things from more than just one perspective. I am not going to pick a side for all this simply because I don't want to pretend that I actually know so much more than what actually have been written by Ramm and Roladder. If the ''Hate Ramm'' group actually exist or have existed, well, what is there more to say? Its pathetic, and its not helping the community in anyway. I beleive Ramm, and others in TWI have taken a lot of crap from some people in the community and I understand this is some cases. However, there is no point to deny that TWI themself fooled many people with RO2 no matter how much they blame everyone else. But it doesn't justify non constructive, hate-behaviour, because that doesn't solve anything at all. As a matter of fact the focus then becomes hating rather than finding solutions to the problem.

Personally speaking, I believe that there were many right out stupid game design decisions that put people off. Like I have said before I didn't manage to enjoy RO2 for the current 20h of playtime. But this wasn't due to bugs or performance. As a matter off fact, I knew this was going to be fixed, and I knew that Tripwire wasn't going to let me down on this. What made me frustated, and what made me feel like I was left behind, was very simply put: Lack of Red Orchestra. At this moment I think no previous ro players can deny that RO2 may not have been what they expected. While the game itself is major improvement from ro ost there are many minor features and game decisions that makes it unplayable for me simply because I don't enjoy it. That's what so frustating.

My hope right now is that TWI spend a lot of time with RO CLASSIC and carefully consider what they really want to do with the game and what they want it to be. My feeling right now is that this mode will make me start playing the game agian so I am very positive to it. But it can't be half made. It has to be made properly. With properly, I mean that it cannot be a 'quick fix'. It must be for longterm use. No point to say that modders are supposed to fix the game to their taste. The real deal should come from TWI not the people who bought the game.