About infantry vs infantry and the way it should be

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Byte Me

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Tak
I do not agree that the recoil is overdone from the hip or anywhere else.
I've fired a 12-gauge from the hip that had less recoil, seriously, I wanted to know how much less it would be. Since nobody was there to laugh at me (I was in the middle of no where with my brother-in-law :eek:) so I hipped a shot or 2, the recoil was crazy low, the barrel hardly moved up at all.
BobCobb
If all else fails, go practice more.
Seeing as you stated you played DoD:S (I assume thats the version you meant), you should also be aware of the so called "skill cap" in that game. Since that game has very wide cone of fire and really low recoil, you can only get so good before your just stuck in a rut and even if you get the drop on someone there is no guarantee you wont die. Its so beyond dumb. This is what the russian smgs in ROOST feel like. Sometimes I wait for the for another class to become availible if its full to avoid having to pick a class with a smg. And when I do pick it every once in a while or pick one up (I only pick up mp40's) I walk around and feel like a old gangster flipping a coin cause its a 50/50 chance I live. Yes, I too don't want "armchair generals" to be insanely good with smgs just because they a have
 

Hyperion2010

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You need to realize that you may not be able to notice the difference IRL but a few milimeters will throw your aim off like mad.
 

Byte Me

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Hyperion2010
You need to realize that you may not be able to notice the difference IRL but a few milimeters will throw your aim off like mad.
Hmm... yes being that it was a shotgun I didn't think of that. Well if you hold down fire with a smg, after firing like half a clip or so, it ends up pointing at the sky. Not even the STG44 should do that. Yes it should raise but it should be capped at a certain height. How to determine that height... uh... I guess thats up to the beta testers.
 

Phoenix-D

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Feb 28, 2006
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Byte Me said:
Hmm... yes being that it was a shotgun I didn't think of that. Well if you hold down fire with a smg, after firing like half a clip or so, it ends up pointing at the sky. Not even the STG44 should do that. Yes it should raise but it should be capped at a certain height. How to determine that height... uh... I guess thats up to the beta testers.

If you control the recoil, it doesn't end up aiming at the sky. Even the PPsh41, which is by far the worst SMG for recoil, doesn't. Standing, unhipped, the biggest shot dispersion is about 6' wide when firing a *whole drum*. ISing cuts it in half, and if I'm braced the bullet holes overlap.

This is what I manage, your mileage may vary. Especially if you aren't ripping off entire drums at once..short bursts are more controlable.
 

Zbojnik

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Mar 30, 2006
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You know what. When you suggest your movement thing somehow Band of Brothers comes to mind. Particularly episode 5, "Crossroads." When Winters is running across the field I think he's holding his M1 like you suggest.
 

Grobut

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Porking the weapons to try and prevent Rambo's is not the way forward, if you provide enough realism, the players will have to use the guns like they should be used, thats what should be strived for!

Thats just not happening right now, i've spend countless houers trying to practice with them, and the logical outcome was: dont even think about using them like a real soldier would, its just not effective, it doesen't get you kills, just spray and prey from the hip!


Sorry, but the way to code an SMG is to mimmick a real one, they dont have much recoil, they are easy to control in short bursts, even if they do have a high rate of fire, but the pistol round is its downfall at range, that is where you must put the coding effort!

Its not hard, give the projectiles a timer, the more time passes the worse the accuracy gets, thats what happens in real life, as the projectile looses velocity, and the spin induced by the rifling slows, the projectile gets more inaccurate.. same thing happen for rifles, just slower as the velocity and momentum involved is so much higher.

Ofcourse it should still have x amount of recoil per shot (but less than half of what it is), thats real, thats why 3 round bursts = good, and holding down the trigger = bad, but that 3 round burst should hit a man sized target within a range of 20-30 meters or so fiering carefully aimed whilst crouching.
What i'd really like to see recoil-wise is a non-liniar recoil, so instead of applying a hard recoil from the get go (think 50,50,50,50,50), the weapon would get harder to controll the longer you fire it (think 10,10,15,20,25,30), that would be pretty easy to code, and would mimick what really happens very well, controling that short burst is not the problem, its when you let'er rip it goes wrong, its hard to explain, but its like your getting slapped about, and the longer it continues the harder it is to keep your aim.

What you'd get then is an SMG clouse to real, devestating at clouse range if used well (bursts, aimed), but not very reliable at longer range (inaccurate, and bullet drop), and then we'd finally have the room-clearing and peremiter-securing weapons that they should be.

And mind you, im only talking about aimed shots here, please keep the wild recoil in hip mode! so people will stop using it like the Rambo gun it is right now! and they will, once its actually worthwhile to aim them, thats what people will do in all but emergencies.
 

PGD03

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Mar 30, 2006
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Zbojnik said:
You know what. When you suggest your movement thing somehow Band of Brothers comes to mind. Particularly episode 5, "Crossroads." When Winters is running across the field I think he's holding his M1 like you suggest.
Excellent tv-series. I have it on DVD and watched it about million times :D That's the way they taught hip-shooting for US soldiers. I bet other participating countries taught something like that too. Well at least germans and some of russian troops too althought russians had emphasis more on mass then skill in the beginning of the war.

If I could remember the name of the book about US close combat training... I have it somewhere but don't know where..
 

PGD03

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Mar 30, 2006
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Elvis said:
I was being sarcastic and sarcastically paraphrasing the replies people who actually know how to fight get when they dare to post about the game. I know a lot about tactics and have been complaining all over the forums about the SMGs and various other selective realism in the game. I agree with you completely. This game touted itself as realistic, if it hadn't I never would have said anything in the first place. Whenever anyone who actually knows how to fight complains about the game some computer geek/ armchair general replies about 'balance' or mouse control or some crap. (Thank you computer geeks for computer games, however, I might add:eek: )
Sorry about that. I was little tired after work and random picked some post annoying me. I know you are into realism cause you've said so before. Just didn't check the writer :eek:
 

PGD03

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Mar 30, 2006
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Hyperion2010 said:
You need to realize that you may not be able to notice the difference IRL but a few milimeters will throw your aim off like mad.
Truth. But once again, submachine gunners task is to be effective in their own range. Few millimeters won't prevent him sending his patient to sand therapy in his office. These thingies shouldn't suffer so much about recoil then inaccuracy in longer ranges. Actually PPSh-41 has some kind of rudimentary compensator to deal with recoil too...

82ndfrag said:
I think its all good......

I like the idea of having only people that have learned to
use the SMGs go around and use it very successfully at
short, medium, and long-range, it just wouldnt fell right
to have just anybody pick up an SMG and take put a whole
squad, ala CoD2.

My 2 cents.
You can't speak about COD 2 and Red Orchestra on the same day. In COD2 you're kind of floating like your a ghost on amphetamine, it's so easy to speed around the map mowing down your enemy..

Grobut said:
Porking the weapons to try and prevent Rambo's is not the way forward, if you provide enough realism, the players will have to use the guns like they should be used, thats what should be strived for............................................And mind you, im only talking about aimed shots here, please keep the wild recoil in hip mode! so people will stop using it like the Rambo gun it is right now! and they will, once its actually worthwhile to aim them, thats what people will do in all but emergencies.
I guess the problem with these Rambos has also something to deal with dying being not enough punishing. You just spawn again after few seconds and off you go Ramboing. In Americas Army you don't feel like running around like Rambo cause someone's going to drop you very soon and you have to wait the whole round to end to get back in the field. Now that's a real punish..but don't want that in RO though. Even if in AA rounds tend to be short but sometimes there's a camper on each side and the round goes on forever..

I wouldn't mind if the recoil was realistic in hip mode too if there was some solution to deal with this run gunners. Actually isn't jogging the normal moving speed in RO? You can't hit crap while jogging. Real pros are moving really fast and hitting accurately but even they are not jogging. So why not make random cone so big while jogging that you can't hit a barn door 5 meters away no matter what weapon you are holding? You'd have to stop to shoot.
 

Byte Me

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PGD03
I wouldn't mind if the recoil was realistic in hip mode too if there was some solution to deal with this run gunners. Actually isn't jogging the normal moving speed in RO? You can't hit crap while jogging. Real pros are moving really fast and hitting accurately but even they are not jogging. So why not make random cone so big while jogging that you can't hit a barn door 5 meters away no matter what weapon you are holding? You'd have to stop to shoot.
Ugh COF? Good God no. Thats way more unrealistic than ramboers would ever be. Even though the recoil should be less while hipped, it doesn't bother me as much as in IS. So I guess leave the hip alone and focus on IS (man I hate comprimising). So can we all agree? Lessen the recoil in IS, but leave hip alone so we can maintain a balance of realism and gameplay? Seems like a good fit. I mean how can you rambo while in IS?
 

Grobut

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Solving run gunners shoulden't be too difficult, if im not mistaken the weapons are made to hit where the barrel is pointing, not just center of screen.. so you just animate jogging, holding the gun at the hip it should move in a figure 8 shape (actually, an infinity sign shape), it'd be pretty hard hitting anything with the gun wobling around like that, and realistic.

But still recoil should be higher at hip than aimed, afterall, when aiming you are pressing it against your shoulder to stabalize it, and you obviously have no such stabillity at the hip.
 

Byte Me

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Grobut
But still recoil should be higher at hip than aimed, afterall, when aiming you are pressing it against your shoulder to stabalize it, and you obviously have no such stabillity at the hip.
I think you mean accuracy. Recoil is lower when firing from the hip because theres nothing for the gun to hit as its going back, the most movement you'll get it is the butt going a inch or 2 back and the barrel raises a few milimeters. However, since you obviously aren't looking down the sight, your accuracy is much worse.
 

PGD03

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Byte Me said:
Ugh COF? Good God no. Thats way more unrealistic than ramboers would ever be. Even though the recoil should be less while hipped, it doesn't bother me as much as in IS. So I guess leave the hip alone and focus on IS (man I hate comprimising). So can we all agree? Lessen the recoil in IS, but leave hip alone so we can maintain a balance of realism and gameplay? Seems like a good fit. I mean how can you rambo while in IS?
You didn't get me or I didn't get you. What is COF?

I mean when you run (just press forward to move, no other buttons) => shooting=no-no => shoot your toes off. I never seen guys hit anything while running, I've tried it my self too.

But that's not as important as getting recoil right in IS. And some help to clear rooms with. Just finished playing and if you try to enter a moderate size room to clear it (if your frag didn't kill the enemy inside) most times you can't hit anything in hip mode or if try enter in IS you get shot in the shoulder before you get in the doorway because moving is so slow. If you try to peek you propably get fragged. Also stunning should last longer if you survive somehow in a room that's fragged.
 

Oberst Freitag

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Feb 19, 2006
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Grobut said:
Porking the weapons to try and prevent Rambo's is not the way forward, if you provide enough realism, the players will have to use the guns like they should be used, thats what should be strived for!
Thing is though...is that there were Rambos in WW2...not very many...but there were some...
 

Phoenix-D

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COF is Cone of Fire. Its a really annoying idea used by less realistic "Realism" games.

Recoil should be more when firing from the hip specifically *because* the gun isn't braced on your shoulder. The energy from firing is the same either way, but when firing from the hip you have to stop it with your hands alone.
 

Byte Me

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Phoenix-D
Recoil should be more when firing from the hip specifically *because* the gun isn't braced on your shoulder. The energy from firing is the same either way, but when firing from the hip you have to stop it with your hands alone.
UGH! You've obviously never fired a gun from the hip. The reason recoil is amplifed while shouldered is because the gun is forced to move up and not strait back because you are blocking the gun's path in that direction. The recoil distance is small, but it makes a big impact on accuracy when you obstruct its movement. You basically are just brute forcing it to stop, unless you shoulder can reciprocate back and forth several inches everytime you fire :eek:. Trust me, using both hands and holding a gun at the hip will not give you a crazy amount of recoil.

NOTE: I do not a have a degree in physics or any mathimatical calculations to back this up. I am simply stating first hand experiance and trying to explain it in a way that makes sense.
 

Grobut

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Byte Me said:
UGH! You've obviously never fired a gun from the hip. The reason recoil is amplifed while shouldered is because the gun is forced to move up and not strait back because you are blocking the gun's path in that direction. The recoil distance is small, but it makes a big impact on accuracy when you obstruct its movement. You basically are just brute forcing it to stop, unless you shoulder can reciprocate back and forth several inches everytime you fire :eek:. Trust me, using both hands and holding a gun at the hip will not give you a crazy amount of recoil.

NOTE: I do not a have a degree in physics or any mathimatical calculations to back this up. I am simply stating first hand experiance and trying to explain it in a way that makes sense.

You may very well have a point there actually, unfortunately i have never fired a full-auto weapon from the hip (they dont like that at gun-ranges here!) so i'll leave that one to people more in the know, i've only fired shouldered (and only for a couple of houers).
 

PGD03

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Mar 30, 2006
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Byte Me said:
UGH! You've obviously never fired a gun from the hip. The reason recoil is amplifed while shouldered is because the gun is forced to move up and not strait back because you are blocking the gun's path in that direction. The recoil distance is small, but it makes a big impact on accuracy when you obstruct its movement. You basically are just brute forcing it to stop, unless you shoulder can reciprocate back and forth several inches everytime you fire :eek:. Trust me, using both hands and holding a gun at the hip will not give you a crazy amount of recoil.

NOTE: I do not a have a degree in physics or any mathimatical calculations to back this up. I am simply stating first hand experiance and trying to explain it in a way that makes sense.
And if you fire WW2 style stock against your hip you'll control recoil better that way too. Example: You have two cones on the ground and one of them has a pole attached on the top of it. If poke the other one from the side in the top of the cone and the other on the top of pole which one's going to be easier to push over? And considering the muzzle lifting up, it's kind of easier to push it down then pull it down.
 

Bat Guano

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Mar 14, 2006
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I am a pretty experienced shooter (I collect and shoot WW2 era military rifles mostly) with some (not a lot) experience with SMGs and the recoil of the SMGs in the game feels about right to me. I've only shot full-auto weapons a few times but I can tell you that it takes a lot of work to keep the muzzle rise under control with even a fairly heavy SMG with a moderate rate of fire. My first full auto experience was with a 9mm Uzi, which compares roughly in size, weight and rate of fire with an MP40. Shooting bursts of 6-8 rounds from the shoulder, using the stock and sights, I would aim at the waist of a police training sillhouette at 50 feet. The first round would hit at point of aim, then there would be a couple more in the chest/shoulder area and the rest would impact over the shoulder.

While I'm sure this could be improved upon somewhat with practice, this seems to be about what you get when you fire a burst from the standing position in the game. In real life, you can alter your stance and pull down with your support hand to compensate for recoil. In the game, this is simulated by pulling down with the mouse when you're shooting, Either way, in real life or in game, it requires practice and concentration.

The other SMG I've fired is a suppressed MAC-10 in .45. Much faster rate of fire, faster even than a PPSh, and very hard to control, even with the long, heavy suppressor attached. Worse than the PPSh in the game. The guy who owned this gun shot it a lot, along with various other weapons, and he couldn't do much better with it than I did.

The problem with controlling SMGs in real life isn't the recoil of the individual shots but the cumulative muzzle rise that comes with full-auto firing. Shooting semi-automatically, you can achieve a rhythm (which gets faster with practice) in which you aim the first shot and then press the trigger again, repeatedly, as the gun comes back down from recoil. The less the weapon recoils, the faster and more accurately this can be done, but it's a whole different ballgame when the gun is firing full auto.

I think the infamous video of the woman running a whole magazine through the PPSh without letting go of the trigger is deceptive. For one thing, she's working pretty hard to keep that muzzle down, and as I think someone mentioned here, just a slight change in muzzle angle makes a big difference downrange, increasing with distance. I'd like to see the same video shot from a rear angle so you could see where the bullets actually impacted. I'm betting they were all over the place.