About infantry vs infantry and the way it should be

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Norden

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 26, 2006
22
0
0
I have to agree with Hyperion2010, the recoil is oke. You have to know your weapon. The game doesn't make you a action hank right ahead.
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
PGD03
Maybe I don't get what is meant by shouldering. To me it is holdin your weapon up like your doing normally.
Well the way its been going around the forums is this... Its is like hip shooting because its still using the free aim system, but it is reduced to around a inch or so (obviously varies depending on your monitor) from the center of the screen. So your not as slow in moving in IS, but your accuracy isn't as high. Your slower moving than hipped, but your accuracy is obviously going to be better. Also, its more realistic to have shoulder and IS only when prone or crouched.

CaptRanger
I've fired m4a1's which have a very comparable ammo size and rate of fire and they don't kick nearly as much as what is shown in game.
Umm... I don't think you should use that weapon as a analogy for a smg. The M4A1 has a recoil compensator in its telescopic butt. Also, it fires a more powerful round and weighs less than mp40 and the ppsh41 (with its 71 round drum, the ppsh41 weighs about 1.5 times more than the M4A1).

The_Countess
try shooting your weapon when your not completley winded from sprinting around all the time. the side to side is fine.
Maybe in practice mode I could try that, but in game against humans, your going to die fast jogging the whole way across the battlefield. The maps are just too big, you have to sprint to get anywhere within a reasonable amount of time. I run out of stamina, on some maps, just trying to get from spawn to the front.

However I think I found a way to balance out the ppsh41/ppd40 (the PPS43 is a whole different story, kinda). Weren't troops with those smgs given 1 drum mag and then the rest were the 35 round banana mags? I think ROOST should reflect this. We can also work this into balancing/gameplay, since the drum magizine isn't really the best forward grip, you should have lower accuracy and some sway when in IS, but your have a lower recoil because of the added weight. However when you switch to the banana mags its the opposite, higher accuracy but higher recoil. This should really help the russians out, switch to the drum for indoors, swap for the banana for outdoors. Of course you only get 1 drum, so it should also cut down on the spray and pray. OMG I think I just solved most of the smgs problems :D (well if all their baseline recoil is reduced for hip and IS).
 

[5.SS] Herr Hut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 11, 2006
126
2
0
Good point Fritz. If you rest your smg against something and take short contoleed bursts there's no reason you can't be accurate. I have hit people with all the smgs in game from long distance doing this.

I've seen a movie clip of a guy firing an entire clip continuously of a ppsh from a standing position, and you could tell he had to lean way into the gun to accomodate the recoil. I can guarantee he wasn't very accurate doing that. Recoil is fine in game. Just control your bursts.
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
Just control your bursts eh? Well since that doesn't do anything (oh I've done it tons of times, theres no difference between short bursts and full auto), I guess I will just have to rest my gun on something. Oh wait... how am I supposed to do that when clearing out a building, gee never thought of that :rolleyes:. I've tried all kinds of solutions to use the smgs effectivly, ironically the best way to use them is hipping. I have killed way more people at any distance hipping than I ever have in IS. Which obviously supports the run n' gun style this game should be trying to move away from. I'm sorry but the smgs recoil needs work, end of story.
 

MkH^

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 11, 2006
500
0
0
Finland
The recoil is definitely overdone for most automatic weapons. MP40 and StG-44 seem fine, but for the Russian submachineguns, especially PPSh, it's nothing like in real life. A puny 7,62x25 round fired from a weapon that outweighs most modern assault rifles would have very little recoil. They were designed like that for a very good reason, otherwise it would have been more effective to just chamber them to 12,7mm or something that way, which they feel like in Red Orchestra.
 

krsun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
7
0
0
Well to add couple of cents:

  • Kick on smgs are too much.
  • At the same time accuracy of smg are again way too good
  • Ability to pull down smg with mouse to archive a huge accuracy is stupid.
I for instance like to play with very low sensitivity mouse. Like 1.25. To pull down ppsh I have to make huge moves with the mouse I just dont have space on my desk to do it and my hands can't jerk that much. But if you put high sensitivity you can pull it down very nicely and accuracy is insane for 15 rounds per second simple as a hammer weapon.

I would like to see:
  • Way less kick I mean way less
  • But with less kick accuracy should in fact be debuffed a lot. I'd like to see my target in sights with no problem while I fire, but bullets should go all the way around if range if too long or I fire long bursts
  • There should be no way to control the kick by pulling mouse down. In fact this is the major flaw of all fps at the time. Then you shoot a weapon you eyes and head are not moving up, your weapon does. So then you have a mouse which is center of view on a target no matter how you shoot the view and center of view should stay static more or less, but weapon itself AUTOMATICALY should move up. It should get back to center of my view then fire stops. If I pull my mouse down my view should go down, all right, but weapon should go up even more, just think about what you will see then you fire and then nod you head down - gun stays on the line and pulls up with fire, but your "view" goes down independently.
PS
Shouldering would be just awesome by the way:)
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
CaptRanger said:
You are comparing apples to bowling balls when you show a video of modern squad tactics and use it to support changes in a WWII game. Tactics and squad movements have changed drastically to say the least since WWII, especially compared to the conscript level of training of many common infantry units. They would not be able to move as fast or with nearly the same precision with their iron sights as compared to a modern soldier. I can tell you first hand that CQ moments and urban warfare SOP is drilled into your head over and over again in the modern army. This is done so soldiers will move fluidly, accurately, and deliberately. Not only did they not have this training, but their weaponry wasn't meant for heavy CQ action. The smg
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
A little more clarifying to that previous post. CQ tactics were "invented" long before WW2 but OF COURSE have experienced some evolution due development of new equipment.

About shouldering, if it's added in the game it shouldn't be influenced by that horrible recoil like hipshooting has now. Even hipshooting shouldn't have that kind of recoil. Hipshooting is inaccurate for other reasons. The problem that occurred before was propably because some nerds make marks on their screen to compensate the missing crosshair.

I present yet another solution to this :D

It's the "crosshair blooming". So hip-mode crosshair is blooming a lot since you are holding your weapon just on the side and the bullets just go where ever. "Shouldering-mode" you have your muzzle right on the vertical line and the crosshair blooming should be smaller. You should hit man-sized in the center under 20m. Actually it would be better that if you are for example using smg the whole burst should go in the same place, like in hip-mode first burst would go somewhere in top left quarter and second in the right or something like that.. In shouldering mode the possible target area would be closer to the center of the screen.

AND if there's going to be change in non-is mode/s there should be some kind of reference where the crosshair is so you don't have to make any marks on the screen. And if "shouldering" like was made something like I explained (as it was irl) it could replace crouching with little more speed added since you are crouching. You could still lift your is up. Or something..

Norden said:
I have to agree with Hyperion2010, the recoil is oke. You have to know your weapon. The game doesn't make you a action hank right ahead.
What???

|MP44|FritZFretZ said:
More running and shooting? No thanks. I'll find a suitable surface to rest my weapon on and enjoy the game the way it's built. I think TW did a great job.
Who's talking about running and shooting? These kind of comments make want to hurt someone. People don't read the whole posts or if they do they misunderstand on purpose.

The game is great if you are satisfied in so blatant historical inaccuracy. To me it's very good and will be great after some things are corrected.

MkH^ said:
The recoil is definitely overdone for most automatic weapons. MP40 and StG-44 seem fine, but for the Russian submachineguns, especially PPSh, it's nothing like in real life. A puny 7,62x25 round fired from a weapon that outweighs most modern assault rifles would have very little recoil. They were designed like that for a very good reason, otherwise it would have been more effective to just chamber them to 12,7mm or something that way, which they feel like in Red Orchestra.
Yeah I tried MP40 and it's much more decent then PPD-40 or PPSh-41. Haven't tried the PPS-43 but if it's the same as other it should be corrected too.
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
PGD03
Your statement about accuracy and weight of the weapon, not correct unless you are a weakling. Weight makes it harder to stabilize after movement but also helps a bit with recoil control.
Go run around with a 60 pound backpack and a 8 pound rifle for 20 mins, then come back and say how much of your weapon sway was due to weight or panting heavily. You got to consider things from all angles.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
You don't carry all your stuff in the front line combat. Not now and not back in the days. AT soldier and such carry much weight with them but riflemen and submachine gunners have much lighter weight to carry. Well full combat gear is kind of heavy to carry if you are untrained but that's why you have to run, march and crawl so much when you are taking your military service..
 

Byte Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
909
0
0
Virginia, USA
PGD03
You don't carry all your stuff in the front line combat. Not now and not back in the days. AT soldier and such carry much weight with them but riflemen and submachine gunners have much lighter weight to carry. Well full combat gear is kind of heavy to carry if you are untrained but that's why you have to run, march and crawl so much when you are taking your military service..
Well the example I gave was for people reading. You can't very well tell people to go run for a hour and half to get the same effect. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that its not only the weight that affects how much your gun wobbles in IS, its also how hard you are breathing. Example: I was at a indoor firing range a few days ago, There was this guy with all his stuff in his lane, hidden behind his side wall. I had no idea he was there, so when he fired it gave me just enough of a scare to give me a little adrenaline jolt. So for like the first 10 or so minutes my aim was off. Also, I can't remember exactly where I heard/read it, but don't snipers hold their breath right before they take a shot?(the part I can't remember is if they exhale it all out or inhale)
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
Byte Me said:
Well the example I gave was for people reading. You can't very well tell people to go run for a hour and half to get the same effect. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that its not only the weight that affects how much your gun wobbles in IS, its also how hard you are breathing. Example: I was at a indoor firing range a few days ago, There was this guy with all his stuff in his lane, hidden behind his side wall. I had no idea he was there, so when he fired it gave me just enough of a scare to give me a little adrenaline jolt. So for like the first 10 or so minutes my aim was off. Also, I can't remember exactly where I heard/read it, but don't snipers hold their breath right before they take a shot?(the part I can't remember is if they exhale it all out or inhale)
Yeah, combat situation is always different because you have adrenalin, being shaken and stuff, no matter what kind of gun you are carrying. Also after running etc. when you are breathing heavily it's very hard to hit smaller targets. When shooting air held in your lung also stabilizes a bit your torso and gets you also longer time to aim then without air :D
 

CaptRanger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
432
31
0
www.highest-degree.com
Byte Me said:
Well the example I gave was for people reading. You can't very well tell people to go run for a hour and half to get the same effect. Anyways, the point I was trying to make was that its not only the weight that affects how much your gun wobbles in IS, its also how hard you are breathing. Example: I was at a indoor firing range a few days ago, There was this guy with all his stuff in his lane, hidden behind his side wall. I had no idea he was there, so when he fired it gave me just enough of a scare to give me a little adrenaline jolt. So for like the first 10 or so minutes my aim was off. Also, I can't remember exactly where I heard/read it, but don't snipers hold their breath right before they take a shot?(the part I can't remember is if they exhale it all out or inhale)
What I learned in marksmanship training is to take slow and controlled breaths and to fire in the split seconds when you're done exhaling/inhaling. Also, you should time your shot between heart beats because the pulse can bump your aim off a bit. Just a few millimeters off can translate to a lot more down range.

Holding your breath is good if you need to take one percise shot, but it screws up your aim too much after that for a few good seconds, so it's not feasible to do for multiple targets. We were told not to do it.
 

PGD03

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 30, 2006
123
10
0
CaptRanger said:
Holding your breath is good if you need to take one percise shot, but it screws up your aim too much after that for a few good seconds, so it's not feasible to do for multiple targets. We were told not to do it.
I've noticed that. After holding my breath the next shot is much harder.
 

Elvis

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
27
0
0
Can we just fix the recoil? We have the expert testimony of people with real world experience, and we have audio/visual aids to testify as to what is realistic. The preponderance of posters support the change. We all paid $25.
 

Monkwarrior

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,144
2
0
Elvis said:
Can we just fix the recoil? We have the expert testimony of people with real world experience, and we have audio/visual aids to testify as to what is realistic. The preponderance of posters support the change. We all paid $25.

Most gentlemen in here tend to have a somewhat narrow focus: they compare this game to reality. In fact there are other considerations to look at too. There is also an ingame balance between weapons/classes and right now there is a sort-of balance (tho bolts are still the most difficult class). Reducing recoil on smg's will further unbalance the game. Resulting in more complaints of players who have the feeling they are "stuck" with a bolt rifle in stead of fighting with a much better weapon.

I choose for ingame balance first and reality second, others choose differently. Maybe they'll change their view a bit after I have killed them 4 times in a row with an smg ;)

Greetingz, Monk (bolt nut).
 

Maschine Pistole-38

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2005
683
0
0
34
Oregon
Elvis said:
Can we just fix the recoil? We have the expert testimony of people with real world experience, and we have audio/visual aids to testify as to what is realistic. The preponderance of posters support the change. We all paid $25.

I paid the $25 also and I think the SMG recoil is fine. It keeps from people running up and spraying everywhere like they could in the mod.
 

MkH^

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 11, 2006
500
0
0
Finland
The recoil is fine for MP-40, but you don't see soldiers wielding it dominating the maps running and gunning like in John Woo movies. However, PPSh was far superior weapon to it, but ingame it loses on all fields. It should be easy to control with short bursts, but firing it at full auto for seconds should throw the aim off. Nothing like it is ingame now, though.

You can't seriously tell me that a 80kg soldier firing a 7,62x25 PPSh has the same effect as a little girl using a fire-department waterhose.
 

Elvis

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 15, 2006
27
0
0
Maschine Pistole-38 said:
I paid the $25 also and I think the SMG recoil is fine. It keeps from people running up and spraying everywhere like they could in the mod.
Except the game touted itself as realistic. SMGs were brought out do do just that- spray the enemy. In real life you can spray the enemy with an SMG. In WW II, you could spray the enemy with an SMG. That's why armies dont go to war with bolt action rifles anymore. WW II was a situation where old and new technologies collided. Neither the heavy battle rifle, nor the SMG was the answer, hence today's 'assault rifle'. Why do we have to have selective realism?
Besides, there's a long way between the way the recoil is and CS, etc.