A Question for all.

[Cpt-Praxius]

Hello, over the last few days Ive started to notice something seriously lacking in RO2, namely firefights.

My question is when is the last time you remember being part of an long, intense firefight, where both sides were really letting rip on each other, trying to suppress and move etc, sort of like an actual battle?

In my opinion, I havent, ever. The reason being the ridiculous accuracy of nearly every weapon. As soon as a head appears it is blown off, especially by the terminator tank ai gunners, with the end result that the game has pretty much turned into camping or run and gun tactics, great.

Would it really be so hard for TWI to adjust the weapon accuracy? And surely this would be beneficial to all as the game may start to feel a bit more enjoyable?

A firefight isn't supposed to be a situation where both sides just shoot aimlessly at one another for ten minutes straight without killing anybody.... beyond holding your position (camping) or assaulting the enemy (run & gun)..... what else do you expect to happen in a firefight?

If all that you want is to have everybody drunk and stupid with their weapons, to the point they can't friggin hit anything and people are just unloading their ammo with hardly a chance at hitting anything, then that wouldn't be any better, in fact, it'd be worse.

I've had a number of heavy firefights in-game... and I've used blind firing often in order to keep my head from getting blown off, while putting pressure back on the enemy.

That's the risk of popping your head out.... you have to do it quicker and kill the other guy faster than they can and then get back under cover before his buddy takes your head off. If you don't think you can pull off a quick shot without getting killed... you don't do it and you try to relocate to a safer area.

People didn't rambo off into the middle of a battlefield without a care in the world.

I have had plenty of heavy firefights, especially in Spartanovka..... you almost always have both teams face to face in a cap zone, shooting back and forth at each other..... one team almost starts to cap, then reinforcements come along and hold them off, then they're almost wiped out and the cap is held, then they get reinforcements and put the pressure back on them..... but both teams still have people in the cap area putting pressure on each other, thus an extended firefight.

if you keep getting to the firefight, shoot a guy and then die yourself and repeat.... then you need to re-learn your tactics so you live a little longer.

You complain about how there's people run&gunning right now and others who just camp.... well reducing the accuracy of the weapons isn't going to solve this, it will just make it worse.

People will begin to run&gun more because they think they can run through the bullets, spray&pray more because their bullets don't hit anything, and due to newer players not being able to hit a damn thing, they'll camp even more.

Leave it as it is.

Think players are too accurate?

Maybe you should work on being more accurate than they are.

 

[captain max707]

I am not a steady aimer. The longer I aim the more I sway. Especially when I was small and the rifles were longer than me So for me accuracy comes from aiming fast and shooting the moment I am on target. If I hesitate I will start swaying and my aim becomes worse. So the faster I shoot the more accurate I am.
Just saying

This is how it was in the original. There was a second where, upon bringing my rifle sights up, I would be able to accurately fire. After this second, the rifle would start swaying around. The sway was exaggerated, but promoted hunkering down instead of running, stopping to fire, and then running again. I think I'd like to try similar aiming in RO2, with a slightly slower sight speed and more sway. I don't know if it would fix it, but it's be interesting to try.

Also, people with good reflexes could still make nice shots from a standing position.

 

[hockeywarrior]

Hello, over the last few days Ive started to notice something seriously lacking in RO2, namely firefights.

My question is when is the last time you remember being part of an long, intense firefight, where both sides were really letting rip on each other, trying to suppress and move etc, sort of like an actual battle?

In my opinion, I havent, ever. The reason being the ridiculous accuracy of nearly every weapon. As soon as a head appears it is blown off, especially by the terminator tank ai gunners, with the end result that the game has pretty much turned into camping or run and gun tactics, great.

Would it really be so hard for TWI to adjust the weapon accuracy? And surely this would be beneficial to all as the game may start to feel a bit more enjoyable?

Exactly right. I can't even count the amount of times I've had this exact same discussion with people about RO2. 90% of the time if you are slightly visible, you are dead. If I take the time to bother to suppress, I get my head shot off.

 

[auxiliary606]

Well so far 22 replys, 3 people think all is rosy in the happy land of RO2, and the rest realise there is a problem.

Why oh why do some people feel the need for "the games not broken, it must be the way you are playing it" comments?

I too have fired weapons in RL (back in air force days), and Ive been on enough exercises and firing ranges to be able to know the difference between a prolonged firefight, and unrealistically accurate shooting.

If weapons were this accurate, and people in windows/ doorways/ etc could be seen and shot in heartbeats, why do we now have modern air support? Surely if weapons were this accurate in WW2 we'd have saved some money and just got a load of bolt action rifles, at least there wouldnt be collateral damage! Maybe even in the hands of professional soldiers, shooting just isnt that easy...

 

[Icey_Pain]

I think people are really tackling the wrong problem here. I really don't want added sway to normally aiming, or artificial recoil. What I want is that it becomes more risky to pull off odd movements.

-Running up stairs should be nearly impossible. It simply doesn't make sense that the person defending the stairs is often rushed by people that come up the stairs.
-The weapon should be harder to steady when you're moving it as if you were to flick shot somebody.
-If you are shot in a non-lethal area, you shouldn't be able to shrug it off by applying bandages. There should be penalties that have an actual influence on the gameplay.

If weapons were this accurate, and people in windows/ doorways/ etc could be seen and shot in heartbeats, why do we now have modern air support? Surely if weapons were this accurate in WW2 we'd have saved some money and just got a load of bolt action rifles, at least there wouldnt be collateral damage! Maybe even in the hands of professional soldiers, shooting just isnt that easy...

I don't think they deployed artillery just because weapons were too inaccurate lol.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

Well so far 22 replys, 3 people think all is rosy in the happy land of RO2, and the rest realise there is a problem.

Why oh why do some people feel the need for "the games not broken, it must be the way you are playing it" comments?

I too have fired weapons in RL (back in air force days), and Ive been on enough exercises and firing ranges to be able to know the difference between a prolonged firefight, and unrealistically accurate shooting.

If weapons were this accurate, and people in windows/ doorways/ etc could be seen and shot in heartbeats, why do we now have modern air support? Surely if weapons were this accurate in WW2 we'd have saved some money and just got a load of bolt action rifles, at least there wouldnt be collateral damage! Maybe even in the hands of professional soldiers, shooting just isnt that easy...

Accuracy is fine since most of the kills are made under 100m range. If you have fired weapons in airforce, surely you will agree that hitting targets at 100m or less doesn't require amazing skill. And bolt action rifles are pretty accurate as far as guns go. The problem is the territory mode, which funnels everyone into tiny area.

When you have 64 people in an area that's about 2 football fields put together, people will be dying ridiculously fast.

BTW what's up with your comment on air support and artillery with weapon accuracy??? Are you seriously implying that if we had small arms that could accurately hit targets up to 200 ~ 300m, we wouldn't need air support or artillery?!? WTF?!?

 

[Cyper]

Well so far 22 replys, 3 people think all is rosy in the happy land of RO2, and the rest realise there is a problem.

Why oh why do some people feel the need for "the games not broken, it must be the way you are playing it" comments?

I too have fired weapons in RL (back in air force days), and Ive been on enough exercises and firing ranges to be able to know the difference between a prolonged firefight, and unrealistically accurate shooting.

If weapons were this accurate, and people in windows/ doorways/ etc could be seen and shot in heartbeats, why do we now have modern air support? Surely if weapons were this accurate in WW2 we'd have saved some money and just got a load of bolt action rifles, at least there wouldnt be collateral damage! Maybe even in the hands of professional soldiers, shooting just isnt that easy...

It don't agree with you completely there. IMO to many FPS games portrays WW2 weapons as useless when they in fact were and still are extremely capable to work very well at both long and short range. The accuracy in RO2 isn't the real problem. The real problem is that you're able to aim like a robot. The aiming doesn't feel natural in any sense. As I've said various times before it feels robotic and unatural.


In most FPS games weapons are extremely easy to handle but that also means you won't die very easy. In RO2, it seems like TWI tried to mix 'hardcore' with 'casual', by making it easy to handle the weapons and at the same time very easy to die. This makes the gameplay very unbalanced and this is the reason why you're able to strike so many kills and deaths in just a matter of minutes. Other issues is that running up on uneven surfaces doesn't affect your speed or stamina. You can rush up stairs, use the cover system to quickly peek out from a window and quickaim ammidiately, pull of and shoot and kill someone. So in my opinion it doesn't matter if you play the game tactical with some mates. It doesn't change the core game machanics. It only changes the way the game is played. The core gameplay still have some real issues in the realism point of view, especially when it comes to the weapon handling.

 

[grothesj2]

Well so far 22 replys, 3 people think all is rosy in the happy land of RO2, and the rest realise there is a problem.

Why oh why do some people feel the need for "the games not broken, it must be the way you are playing it" comments?

I too have fired weapons in RL (back in air force days), and Ive been on enough exercises and firing ranges to be able to know the difference between a prolonged firefight, and unrealistically accurate shooting.

If weapons were this accurate, and people in windows/ doorways/ etc could be seen and shot in heartbeats, why do we now have modern air support? Surely if weapons were this accurate in WW2 we'd have saved some money and just got a load of bolt action rifles, at least there wouldnt be collateral damage! Maybe even in the hands of professional soldiers, shooting just isnt that easy...

It's BECAUSE weapons are accurate that airsupport and artillery is called in. No one wants to stick their head out lest it takes a bullet so call up some arty or air power. Let the cannon cockers and flyboys handle it.

 

[Richey79]

I wonder if the issue is more with the way spawn points are arranged, that you're generally not punished much (either individually or as a team) for dying lots of times, and these two factors reward players for running head-long into the fray. Territory in this game tends to be won by the team that throw their lives repeatedly (and as individuals) against the defenders.

In RO:OF, your team would get pushed back and destroyed very quickly if you didn't form a defensive line (even as attackers) and maintain it as a team. Moving forward as an attacker tended to be a slow probing of the flanks as a team, whereas in HOS, an attack tends to be one or two guys breaking through, getting behind the enemy and destroying them rapidly.

Different kinds of engagement.

I suspect we'll get some more RO:OF type engagements once the community-made maps start to flow.

 

[Sifer2]

It's not the accuracy of weapons that's the problem its the number of automatics. You would get a more prolonged firefight if the majority were using Bolt Actions in my opinion. As it is now though the best players usually run with Semi's an can drop a whole group before needing to reload from their great spot they learned.

And of course people see that an then they are too afraid to go outside and it becomes a camp fest. I also don't think increasing the distance is going to make the Firefights any more intense. We already have Fallen Fighters, and its actually pretty slow paced.

 

[Sufyan]

I don't understand what people are implying when they say there are no firefights in RO2. I don't get firefights in ANY game I play because either you are facing off and letting the random number generator dictate who gets hit, or one player shoots the other in the back. Rosy tinted glasses much?

There is no consequence to death in games, that is why people stay and fight for a couple of seconds until either combatant is dead. You get killed hundreds of times a week from bullets coming out of unknown directions. Soldiers in the real world can be killed from unknown shooters too, but they are not robots, so they protect themselves rather than risking it like a gamer would. Those long fire fights you love from the movies and after action reports are way different, not because weapons are harder to aim, but because people don't want to get shot and that takes priority over scoring kills.

Show me a game where you're regularly involved in firefights trading shots with the enemy, I'd love to see one. Once both players have spotted eachother, and can see eachother, the outcome is only seconds away no matter what game you are playing. Assuming the weapons are not completely ineffective that is, ie Kane & Lynch where you often see two players emptying entire magazines into eachother while sidestepping in a long wheeling motion until one player gets bored and charges the other in order to shoot him point blank.

 

[FoulOleRon]

never not since RO1, but even then it was kinda rare.

Yeah I don't remember RO1 having great long firefights unless you were playing on maps with very long range engagements. Or what appeared long ranges due to the FOV reducing players to tiny pixels. Usually you got insta-popped if you stuck your head out of cover at normal range in RO1.

Until we get maps where sides are set a good distance apart there won't be long firefights. With engagement ranges of 50-150m which seems to be the norm in RO2 and no fear of dying it's going to be quickly lethal stuff when weapons are given their proper accuracy. The proper accuracy should only be for when you can get settled properly - I think we'll have to wait for mods to make changes like preventing people from sprinting, stopping and being able to aim almost instantly.

 

[ArchoN2010]

It's the lack of sway, especially after running or sprinting.

 

[Golf33]

I've had some great firefights on Apartments. As the Russian MG, I head to the right from spawn and deploy in the street where I can see the top couple of floors of the buildings overlooking the right-hand bridge. Then I just put short bursts into each window more our less at random, making sure to kill anyone I actually happen to see.

One of my clan mates was on the German side once and commented that my fire had completely stopped him using any of those windows.

That's what a firefight is about. You put fire onto the enemy or onto locations you want to keep him away from. If he goes there and tries to shoot you he dies and you've won the firefight. If he stays away you've won the firefight. If he is able to fire back and kill you, you lost the firefight and you should have either moved away (in which case he still wins the firefight, but at least you're still alive) or put more (and more accurate) fire onto him.

Another thought - firefights don't occur between individuals, they occur between groups. Your squad trying to put enough accurate fire onto the enemy that the enemy can't do it back to you. It's hard to do in a computer game because both sides are a bit more dispersed and less aware of their surroundings than in real life. However if you get into a good clan match where the teams at communicating and moving in a coordinated manner you will see it in RO2.

Last thought for the day - two individuals trading shots at any range is not a firefight. It's just two suicides waiting to happen.

 

[Nikita]

Hmph. Firefights weren't that long in Ostfront to begin with! In fact, it was very much the same deal--you crawled over a hill, you and an enemy spot one another, and it's a race to the trigger. Most exchanges of fire last seconds--the first person to fire misses, then bolts his rifle, giving the second person an additional moment to line up and fire.

If anything, the only reason why Ostfront firefights were ANY longer than in RO2 was because of the need to pixel snipe. You basically had to use trial and error at longer ranges, trying to find the "sweet spot" before your enemy did.

I've said it before--I think the sway system as implemented is reasonable. There wasn't any sway, period, in Ostfront when you first raised the rifle. Then, your soldier began waving the barrel in circles inches in diameter. It's the shift-zoom that's a little excessive, allowing you to spot prone enemies at extremely long ranges, "increasing" the size of the target, and enhancing mouse sensitivity.

Wound penalties (at least temporary ones), longer bandaging time, and a reducting in the potency of shift-zoom would be appreciated changes. As the game currently stands, however, it's hardly a monumental issue.

The thing is, you tend to remember getting killed at long range. You don't tend to remember the numerous times shots fired at you miss, or even the times you miss, for that matter.

 

[Luckless]

It's not the accuracy of weapons that's the problem its the number of automatics. You would get a more prolonged firefight if the majority were using Bolt Actions in my opinion. As it is now though the best players usually run with Semi's an can drop a whole group before needing to reload from their great spot they learned.

And of course people see that an then they are too afraid to go outside and it becomes a camp fest. I also don't think increasing the distance is going to make the Firefights any more intense. We already have Fallen Fighters, and its actually pretty slow paced.

I find that being shot at with automatics and semi automatics tends to give me more time to recover and save myself than the bolt actions. Someone shooting at me with a burst of automatic fire tends to impact on the cover around me, rather than between my eyes, meaning I have a warning and can pull back to cover, then relocate. With a group of bolt action players facing my direction, I tend to die very quickly because I get no warnings.

 

[Golf33]

On a separate note, I do find the weapon handling a little too precise in RO2 - especially immediately after running or making gross changes to your point of aim while in ironsight. It's not huge but it is there.

The essence of fire and manoeuvre is that you do not do them at the same time! You do them as a team, where one fires while the other moves.

 

[auxiliary606]

Agreed!

 

[Poerisija]

In both RO1 and RO2 - if you're seen, you're gonna get shot.

That's a way more accurate representation of actual ww2 warfare than say BiA-series's "you can't hit enemy behind cover because of magic forced flanking" which is retarded. Flanking works in RO2 and it works for REAL REASONS instead of forced mechanics.

While I do agree everything could and should be slowed down just SLIGHTLY, it's pretty good as it is. Supression works even without the arbitrary mechanic. You don't want to pop your head up because it's gonna get shot off.

 

[wazups2x]

Mkb and other guns like it are much too accurate. It makes using the bolt action worthless.