A possible use for dualies?

[Undedd Jester]

TL;DR at the bottom

I've been pondering this for a while.

Since the dual wielded hancannons got nerfed for the Sharpshooter (and since they are made more awkward to use due to lack of proper iron sights), dual wielded weapons have sort of fallen into that category of rather useless weapons.

So I've been trying to figure out a possible use for dual wielded weapons that doesn't involve making a new perk (i.e the Gunslinger), and I think I may have stumbled on the answer. The Commando... confused? See below.



When you think about it the advantage of dual wielded weapons is the higher clip size and rate of fire vs. the loss of accuracy and reload time.

The Commandos assault rifles excel with having large pools of ammo, big clips, and a higher rate of fire. The Commandos perk bonuses also reduce his reload time, recoil and makes spotting specimens in general alot easier. The principles of upgrading to a dual wielded weapon, heavily favours the Commando's spammy style of play and crowd controlling role, instead of the spike damage rolls of other classes.

After all, didn't people complain that the problem with dual handcannons on the Sharpshooter was it made him better at clearing up trash than the Commando?

TL;DR

So my suggestion is to have the Commandos bonus' also apply to dual wielded Pistols and Handcannons (No discount). After all the Commando is certainly not considered Overpowered, and I don't think anyone would begrudge giving them to the Commando.

My only concern is dualies are a bit too heavy for the the Commando to carry them and 2 assult rifles... which makes them still kind of useless. Then again I suppose the 9mm's are cheap, and the Handcannons don't get that huge HS bonus.

IF dualies should given to somebody, would you agree that sombody should be the Commando?

 

[sverek]

I'd rather support dual weapons for medic. Spam and cover - perfect medic's past time when team doesn't need healing.

Also, I think dual 9mm should NOT gain any weight. It's already too bad for sniping and effective on beginner and normal, from hard it's more effective to aim for head with single pistol.

anyway here's bonuses:
- slight damage boost, depending on level
- less recoil, steadier aim.

 

[C_Gibby]

While I'm perfectly ok with the commando getting the dualies instead, I think I'd rather support dualies (and even singles while we're at it) being off-perk buffed. In fact, in a previous thread I spoke about how the HC could use a buff. The damage margin is just fine I think, but if we lower the headshot multiplier and in turn raise the base bodyshot damage, they'd be more useful in terms of spamming like they should be.

Example (not using real weapon stats here):

A pistol has a bodyshot damage of 5 and a max damage of 20.
The headshot multiplier is 4x, so if we score a headshot, we do 20 damage.
Lets make the bodyshot damage 10 instead.
10 x 4 = 40. Overpowered? A bit.
Lower the multiplier to 2x with the base damage being 10 still.
10 x 2 = 20. Max damage is the same but the weapon is better to spam with in a panic moment.
Or if the weapon is to be used spammingly, lets make that 15 x 1.33 = 20.
The headshots are as effective as they were, but not needed as much and we have a wonderful bodyshotter.

Not a brilliant example, but I assume y'all understand what I'm getting at.

 

[Gartley]

Need a "I don't have a F'king clue whats best" option.

I agree with your post Jester but then I read sverek's and thought "That'd be neat" Me being a medic player and all, that already uses dual HCs... I don't know!!

 

[CandleJack]

So i was using the M4 the other day, and i was thinking


This could be a really good weapon for Commando.

 

[HaTeMe]

So i was using the M4 the other day, and i was thinking


This could be a really good weapon for Commando.

Ahahaha, yeah.

What comes to Jesters idea, I dont know... Id MUCH rather see that new perk which focuses on dual wield because its - well - cool , but atm using them is pointless.

But since it seems like were not getting a new perk, otherwise it would already be there, I might be in favour of giving dualies to medic. Maybe not handcannons but 9mm. As long as its in reasonable limits so medic doesnt become too powerful.

 

[Aze]

If there is no drastic thing created, just moving the pistols entirely to the Commando (and lower Xbow weight to 8 so you can pair it with LAR) seems like the best thing to do for now.

But, like HaTeMe, I would too prefer a new pistol-perk. One extra reason for that is because there are lots of pistols and rifles being created by modders, thus you could add a few of those to each perk more easily instead of just adding them all to one perk (the current Sharpshooter).

Either way, wether pistols are moved to Commando or not i still think something else could be done with pistols to upgrade their viability a little:
Dualwielding them means double ammo, but also double the weight!
That would need a little rebalancing, such as this for example:
9mm single - 0 weight, 150 ammo (down from 240 ammo)
9mm dual - 3 weight, 300 ammo (changed from 4 weight and 240 ammo)
HC single - 3 weight, 72 ammo (down from 4 weight & 96 ammo)
HC dual - 6 weight, 144 ammo (up from 4 weight & 96 ammo)

This would do so many things:
* The single HC (and to an extent, the Dual 9mm too) would be a more appropriate backup-sidearm with not so much ammo, but not as heavy either.
* Whatever perk the 9mm should belong to, the single 9mm doesn't become equally as strong as now (in the hands of a Sharpie atm, it's DEADLY!), due to having a lot less ammo.
* You cannot accidently pick up any second pistol if you have full weight (or when you have 1 or 2 slots left)!
* If you do pick up a second pistol and then throw it back on the ground, you throw away half the total ammo with it (currently), but with the "double weight + double ammo"-thing added that's not as much of a problem, as you don't exactly lose alot of ammo doing so, you just "revert back" to (more or less) half your ammo again. I hope you understand what i mean by that.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Yeah I kinda liked the idea of a pistol perk... but thats already been discussed up the arse wouldn't you say, so this was a suggestion to possibly make dualies useful without going down that route

 

[CandleJack]

Yeah I kinda liked the idea of a pistol perk... but thats already been discussed up the arse wouldn't you say, so this was a suggestion to possibly make dualies useful without going down that route

but i like that route

 

[Aze]

but i like that route

(Im gonna get so much hate for this -.-)

Anyone seen "Over the Hedge"? When the squirrel said "But i like the cookie"? ... yeah that's how i read your comment xD

 

[HuNteR-]

we've been going over this in another thread and I'll say again, I haven't felt this epic nerf as much as some people it seems, I usually go with Support level 6, and my weapon line up is Assault shotgun, AA12 and Dual Handcannons, and its a massively effective combination.

Again, I'm not suffering this nerf like apparently alot of people are, is it down to the skill of the player now then?

 

[C_Gibby]

Hunter, this "epic nerf" is just removing the bodyshot damage and the recoil/reload time reduction from the sharpie for the HCs and 9mms. Nothing else has changed for the pistols.

 

[timur]

we've been going over this in another thread and I'll say again, I haven't felt this epic nerf as much as some people it seems, I usually go with Support level 6, and my weapon line up is Assault shotgun, AA12 and Dual Handcannons, and its a massively effective combination.

Again, I'm not suffering this nerf like apparently alot of people are, is it down to the skill of the player now then?

this was a problem before the nerf, really; the Dualies, even when they were better, never fit the Sharpster at all, and were usually thrown aside for a single gun anyways. Some route should be taken so that the dualies can excel in their spammy glory while not screwing with the whole SS thing.

 

[HuNteR-]

I re-commit my statement, I have no problems with the Dual Cannons, they're a crafted part of my arsenal against the masses of specimins.

I really do think we have to chalk this one down to skill, because how is it that I've used them through all the patches, all the nerfs and yet I'm still deadly with them?

It has to be down to how other people use them, they can't alter and adapt their skills it would seem.

So on that note, i think to say that its a general widespread issue that the Dual Cannons need sorting because they're terrible now, with or without Sharpshooter, its nothing more than an opinion from one user who might be having problems, therefore crying out for a change is unjust, its one of those things that, people should start training and learning how to use the hand cannons to their advantage, instead of writing them off entirely and waiting until someone else changes how they perform so that they can then start to use them.

 

[Fish111]

Commando is OP tho

 

[HaTeMe]

This might have been true before the balance update, not anymore.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I re-commit my statement, I have no problems with the Dual Cannons, they're a crafted part of my arsenal against the masses of specimins.

Its a fair point dude, we have had the same problem with the Berserker, by making him better for the masses he has been made nearly invincible in the hands of true Berserkers.

I might well be doing the same to the Commando, after all the Scar was nerfed because it was capable of comfortably taking on specimens the Commando shouldn't really be taking on.

Only thing that bugs me with dualies is majority of experienced users find they are much better carrying a solo pistol. This suggestion, far as I can tell doesn't affect the regular applicaiton of dual wielded pistol weapons, it merely makes them more desireable to the class that is solely designed to deal with trash zeds. My concern is dual handcannons will overstep this boundary once more.




Incidently, on an unrelated note. Does anyone else find it a little odd that the support specialist has a perk bonus that directly overcomes one of his weapon weaknesses? Having extra ammo for his weapons surely overcomes the pure inefficiency of his guns and is likely a large contribution to the supports current status as the most reliable and versatile ballistic perk?

I was tempted to make a thread about it, but I hate arguing about overpowered classes now... it generates alot of bile

 

[C_Gibby]

Incidently, on an unrelated note. Does anyone else find it a little odd that the support specialist has a perk bonus that directly overcomes one of his weapon weaknesses? Having extra ammo for his weapons surely overcomes the pure inefficiency of his guns and is likely a large contribution to the supports current status as the most reliable and versatile ballistic perk?

Not really. It's like saying the Demo shouldn't get explosive resistance and the Firebug shouldn't get fire resistance. I mean, for the role of both these perks, they have to stay away a little bit so they don't kill themselves so with extra perk levels, they're less likely to kill themselves and they can get stuck in with less consequence, i.e. they'd be shooting more and doing their job. Just like the support spec, his weak spot is low ammo and if this weak spot was kept in still, he wouldn't be shooting as much, i.e. not bothering to do his job as often as he should.

 

[HuNteR-]

Its a fair point dude, we have had the same problem with the Berserker, by making him better for the masses he has been made nearly invincible in the hands of true Berserkers.

I have to step in and drop a harsh truth on myself, I'm usually always Support, but the other night I happened to select level 6 Sharp, I went, got my Dual Cannons, and to my shock horror, they performed worse than dual pistols, or even a single pistol.

The strange thing here is, I swapped over to Support, got my weapon layout, Assault, AA12 and the Dual Cannons, oddly enough, I had no problems with the Dual cannons, they worked perfectly for me once again.

So either I had a freak session come up on me, or the nerf for the sharp is more than the other perks, it was very strange indeed.

So now, I apologise, I change my views on the cannons and their perk, it failed for me.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Just like the support spec, his weak spot is low ammo and if this weak spot was kept in still, he wouldn't be shooting as much, i.e. not bothering to do his job as often as he should.

This is a thread derail so I won't keep up with this, but...

Thats kinda my arguement though, he isn't really doing his job, he is over stepping into other classes jobs. I mean he is supposed to be a crowd controller (when they bunch together) and a spiker for the big guys... his extra ammuniton kinda pushes him into the realm of trash killer which is surely the commando's job.

I know on the rare occassion I play as a support I quite happily use a shotgun shell on a lone crawler because I always have tonnes to spare... mind you I am a Firebug by nature so I am a bit of a beast at ammo conservation, so I suppose thats kinda a poor arguement


@ Hunter LoL fair point dude, who knows, Commandos might already be sick with them xD