A plea.

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Erza

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 2, 2009
3
0
0
TEATIME LAND.
This is on the behalf of I and my friends, who once found enjoyment in the game but have been driven away with past updates.

Normally when we'd play your game we'd have a minimum of two people to a maximum of...say, four, if we're lucky. We play on normal difficulty because easy difficulty does not suffice for a challenging game, which makes it less interesting.

However, normal difficulty is unfair in many aspects for lower amounts of players, namely in the way of balance. For two people to sit down alone and play this game is a daunting task, although we've found ways to manage. But, Fleshpounds always cause trouble, as it's nearly impossible to take them down quickly when you've got a Support Specialist and a Commando at level 4 each.

Using the technique you all like to refer to as "kiting," we've managed to deal with Fleshpounds fairly and with only minor losses. It takes half a dozen grenades and plenty of bullets for each, but it was still managable.

Because you've removed the ability for this to be possible, by making a "set time before Fleshpound goes ape****" feature in your updates, the game is now unplayable for the number of people we have.

Easy difficulty is laughable with more than one player. However, normal difficulty is in many aspects tediously challenging unless you have the default player slot limit full. My first preposal is this: Make a game difficulty level that's between easy and normal difficulty so that players may have a fair challenge, but not tediously so when there's less than five or six players.

Originally, we held your game in high regard because most of the weapons in the game did not feel generic or like things we've seen many times before in other games. There was a wide selection of weapons, most of which did not feel out of place or common among many other games. The L85 (Bullpup), Benelli M3 (Shotgun), and especially the Winchester Model 94 (Lever-Action Rifle), made the game's selection feel more original and therefore made it more worth playing.

However, we've been left with a sour taste in our mouths because, frankly, the Avtomat Kalishnikov 1947 and especially the Katana don't make sense being added into the game, especially locale-wise.

First of all, you miss the important point that the UK is heavily restrictive with their laws on civilian possession of firearms. This means that whatever the military and police forces use is the only selection that's left that makes sense being in the game outside of the very limited selection that civilians can actually possess (bolt-action pistol carbines). So far, the weapons that already didn't fit to begin with were the Crossbow and the Desert Eagle pistol, because nobody in their right mind would have a crossbow for home defense and you'd have to be quite dense to think that a fifty-caliber handgun, which was invented for sporting purposes, would suffice as a combat weapon with intense recoil and extremely heavy ammunition without the benefits of any accuracy. Most of the other weapons make sense being in the game, because they're either common because of firearm regulation or because they're used by British military and police forces, or because they're painfully easy to obtain (the Fire Axe, Lever-Action, and Double-Breech Shotgun come to mind).

The next problem is that the balance of these weapons in-game relative to their classes is very shakey. As we normally play with two or three people, the differences between classes becomes more glaring, and we've taken notice that higher-level incarnations of the Support Specialist are much more powerful than the higher-level incarnations of the Commando or other weapon-specific classes. Because while the Commando gets damage output increases for the L85 (and the AK-47, I believe?) with the ability to see Stalkers easier (and the damage output increased for the L85 isn't very good in the first place considering the damage it does standard); the Support Specialist gets increased carrying weight (which at a certain point would allow him to hold BOTH shotgun weapons in his loadout at the same time), increased amount of grenades to be held, increased damage with BOTH shotguns (and with the Double-Breech Shotgun, that's ****ing insane as it already is, regardless of its laughably unbelievable choke pattern), increased shot penetration, AND faster welding time on doors.

The benefits of class perks is unfair and unbalanced, and as some reap heavy rewards from their efforts others are left with barely anything for their troubles.

My next proposal is this: Put weapons in the game that are unique across the whole genre and make sense in terms of locale; and give classes like the Commando, Berserker, and Firebug more benefit for their troubles. In terms of weapons actually used by the British armed forces, you could easily impliment weapons like the high-caliber versions of the Browning Hi-Power L9A1 or SIG P226 instead of the Desert Eagle; the L85 should be implimented as an assault rifle because that's what it actually is (and it's boggling to wonder why you chose the uncommon short-barreled version and gave it the power output of a pistol-caliber sub-machine gun). Because Britain is very close to countries like Austria, Germany, France, and Italy, it would make more sense and would be easier to pass off as plausable to impliment weapons like the FAMAS, Steyr AUG, or G3/G36 instead of the AK-47 (because they're actually used by the military forces, even special forces, unlike the AK-47) FN Five-Seven (to replace the Desert Eagle), Beretta M12 (because the L85 should be the game's primary assault rifle rather than the AK-47), or even the MP5 (you don't need to think too hard about that one).

And remove the katana completely. At least weapons like the Desert Eagle somewhat fit into the game. The katana does not fit the game's environment at all, and pretty much represents every action-media cliche that could ever exist. You put a traditional weapon used in feudal Japan into a game that takes place in modern-day Britain. That's like saying you should put the weapons from Mega Man 2 into Call of Duty 4. That's like trying to fit plasma cannons and laser guns with medieval knights and wizards. It doesn't make any ****ing sense at all being in this game and was a really stupid idea.

My plea? Fix your game. You took something that could have been wonderful and complete, cut off its arms and legs with a stupid update that made it impossible to play without modifications to balance, and instead of sewing them back on you decided to give it a bandage for its lost limbs by throwing new weapons into the game for a fanbase that doesn't actually seem to prominently exist.
 

Yoshiro

Senior Community Manager
Staff member
Oct 10, 2005
13,454
4,104
113
Moved your post as you seemed to thing this belonged under Heroes of Stalingrad for some reason :p

To address one of your points. Normal is very balanced even for people with 0 perk levels. We heavily tested it and there are ways of dealing with all the zeds without kiting them.
 

Sigurd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 10, 2007
268
11
0
Your having problems on normal with level 4 perks????? Game is actually easier with less players since all specimens have less health and waves are shorter. Even suicidal is a walk in the park in solo mode.

I find that hard is too easy, (even with 5 other noobs) while suicidal is unfair at times. (like 4 FPs and 4 sirens at the same time)
 

dextronaut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 26, 2009
2,435
128
0
Pacific Northwest
you pretty much wasted your time writing that novel ezra. you share the belief that very few KF'ers share.

KF is a game where you shoot things and then visit a trader, and then shoot more things. its not suppose to be uber realistic or tactical, its just suppose to be fun. sure, there are tactics in the game, but really KF is mindless fun.
 

SgtStress

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 15, 2009
177
1
0
Jesus...

"the game is now unplayable for the number of people we have."

Rubbish. Normal mode, two people. And you still struggle with FP's ? Newsflash, no one kites anymore, that went out several patches ago. Its all about teamwork or the good old instant decap.

Rank 4 commando and you CANT deal with an FP on normal mode ?? Erm... DECAP it. Wait for it to lunge at you, use your automatic fire and decap it. Simple. Guess you got to rank 4 on a levelling server eh..

The health FP's have on normal mode with just 2 people playing is pretty laughable mate. No idea why you struggle so much, you must be doing something very very very wrong here.

Either that or shoot it before it gets to melee range. With just 2 people on normal mode - it has so little health how anyone can find them challenging is beyond me.


My plea ? Never post or join a public game again.
 

Wolfdust

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 24, 2009
236
9
0
Massachusetts, USA
You need to get out and about in the public servers more often mate. Commando, Zerker and in the right cirumstances the Firebug can be incredibly lethal (Firebug + Doom-2-Final's hallways = barbecue ). Commandos are incredibly versatile since the patch, as the AK gave them the means to take on Scrakes and FPs more effectively. Zerkers can kill anything aside from Sirens and Crawlers with incredible ease. I've found myself alone on a few occasions (bad decisions on my behalf), ran into a Fleshpound in a six-man Hard game, decapped it quickly with my chainsaw and then swapped to my KAtana to bugger off before the FP's friends could pin me down next to his bleeding-out headless body.

And Scrakes man. Scrakes are a joke to Zerkers. Zerkers eat Scrakes for breakfast. The alt fire of the chainsaw stuns Scrakes and does big damage. The primary of the Katana makes them flinch (and with the katana's firerate you can keep them flinching indefinately. Er, well, until they die) while the secondary stuns them for a couple seconds (And does big damage as well)

I think the Axe's secondary also stuns them. Not sure.

Point is: Commandos, Zerks and Firebugs don't need no help. They're really really really good at their jobs (Commando and Firebug: Crowd control. Zerker: Some crowd control mixed in with FP/Scrake takedown duty)

As to the rest of the post: This ain't RO. I don't think realism is high on TWI's priority list for KF. This is a game where a 9mm round can utterly demolish someone's skull and a knife blow can sever a limb in a single strike.

Unless Specimen's flesh has the consistancy of silly putty, that's not very realistic, you know?

Also, as to the issue of what guns are in. The Trader is not the military. She's clearly got black market connections. And probably other connections, for that matter. She stocks experimental Horzine flamethrowers, and sets up base deep inside Horzine facilities.

There's a really good chance a large portion of her stock may be scavenged from their weapon lockers.
 
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Nazarov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 24, 2009
674
190
0
Although I agree about the katana, I don't see the striving point in the rest of the arguments. Fleshpounds go down ridiculously easy now even on Hard level.
And even though UK may be restrictive in weapons now, but this again is in apocolyptic scenario.
Katana on the otherhand, was fun for couple seconds, but now it's just ridiculous. I wouldn't mind if it were removed from the game.
 

brick_top1982

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 12, 2009
652
83
0
39
hmmmm.... the game is too hard, the game is too easy.......

I thought this game was just about mind numbing action. I also kindly disagree with you about how you think other classes outshine more than others. Each class has a place on the field and excel at them better than others. Commando=sweeping class, taking out the trash to lead a safe path for the Berserkers....so on and so forth.

And with your set up, a support and commando, thats almost a for sure ticket to the boss in the very least. Commandos aim for the trash zeds supports concentrating their fire on the larger zeds. Also now that it is well known that the commandos are very efficient at decaping FPs, your support class can save their nades for the scrakes and only worry about FPs when the commando fails to decap them.

It just sounds to me that you just need to play more and get the feel of how each class specializes in their field.
 

Deniz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 15, 2009
158
0
0
No, don't touch the katana or the AK. I love both of them and I couldn't give a crap if it doesn't fit the UK setting.

However, normal difficulty is in many aspects tediously challenging unless you have the default player slot limit full. My first preposal is this: Make a game difficulty level that's between easy and normal difficulty so that players may have a fair challenge, but not tediously so when there's less than five or six players.
LOLOL. All I can say is... L2P.
 

Steg

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 10, 2009
133
33
0
Re: A Plea.

Re: A Plea.

This will be a long post, addressing most of the OP's points. Feel free to disregard.

normal difficulty is unfair in many aspects for lower amounts of players (...) For two people to sit down alone and play this game is a daunting task

It should be daunting. You should die, fairly often. Winning should be doable, but tough. If you always win, it's just like playing on Beginner. The game seems to scale well enough on the pub servers I've been playing. If I can win with a couple random pubbers, you and a teammate (either in person or with some kind of voice chat, I assume) should be able to do OK.

Fleshpounds always cause trouble, as it's nearly impossible to take them down quickly when you've got a Support Specialist and a Commando at level 4 each.

FPs (and Skrakes) gave me a lot of trouble. I play as a Commando most of the time, so until I got more practice, I would generally just train them on my team and hope someone else could kill them. Now I've gotten much better and can kill a FP ~70% of the time, if teammates don't shoot him (and he's alone, and I have health, etc). As soon as you see him, run up to him, look through your red dot, aim at the head. He'll bump into you, pause, then usually bob his shoulders and attack you. As soon as he moves, open fire on his head. He'll often duck his head down, your shot goes right in the top of his head, and he decapitates. Whip out the knife and run! If he doesn't enrage, you're good. If he enrages, try to dodge around or have your teammate block him a bit.

Skrakes I still suck at. I shoot them until they charge, then switch to AK and unload it, and hope I live =) No kiting.

by making a "set time before Fleshpound goes ape****" feature in your updates, the game is now unplayable for the number of people we have.

Nope, still playable. Difficult, but playable. Try different tactics.

normal difficulty is in many aspects tediously challenging unless you have the default player slot limit full.

You know the game scales with the number of players, right? With 2 guys the monsters are fewer and have less HP and stuff.

we held your game in high regard because most of the weapons in the game did not feel generic or like things we've seen many times before in other games.

Yeah, they're pretty cool. They didn't take any of those away, though.

you miss the important point that the UK is heavily restrictive with their laws on civilian possession of firearms.

Generally, civilians (even in the US) don't possess fully automatic weapons or grenades. So most of that is coming from the military, or from private corporations (Horzine!) that have secret stuff (Flamethrowers!) and probably their own private security detail (eaten by Zeds!) and a secret trader supplying the stuff.

(bolt-action pistol carbines).

I know you probably meant three things, but I can't stop trying to imagine a bolt-action pistol carbine.

nobody in their right mind would have a crossbow for home defense

They probably would if they can't get ahold of a firearm. People have crazy things they depend on. (Cricket bat, steel pipe, bows, pepper spray) Yeah, I'd rather have a shotgun, but crossbow is better than nothing.

you'd have to be quite dense to think that (Desert Eagle) would suffice as a combat weapon

Absolutely. It's a completely ridiculous weapon. It's fun to shoot, don't get me wrong, but outside of Hollywood it's insane to consider it a good combat weapon. It's bad enough to go 'pistols akimbo' but doing so with a .50AE is silly.

But part of the game is about being silly, mouthing off inane one-lines, and blasting away with crazy guns. So we probably won't win.

higher-level incarnations of the Support Specialist are much more powerful than the higher-level incarnations of the Commando

Maybe. I haven't played a SS very much, but outside of Skrakes and the Pat, I don't feel weak.

the damage output increased for the L85 isn't very good in the first place

It's pretty nice. Easier to make kills if you miss the head, and the lower recoil means you miss the head less often. The AK would be a mess with a different perk, I think.

The benefits of class perks is unfair and unbalanced

Could be. I don't see the attraction of Medic, to be honest, it seems like they could definitely use a boost. Firebug too, maybe, at least to give them a bit more breadth. (people swear they're overpowered and underpowered, so who knows). Commando seems just fine to me now, especially with the AK replacing dual HCs for later waves.

My next proposal is this: Put weapons in the game that are unique across the whole genre and make sense in terms of locale

Yeah! More weapons are always nice.
give classes like the Commando, Berserker, and Firebug more benefit for their troubles.

Zerks are crazy with katanas now, so I don't know about boosting them more. Firebugs, sure, commandos are ok IMO.

weapons like the high-caliber versions of the Browning Hi-Power L9A1 or SIG P226 instead of the Desert Eagle

.40SW isn't that much different from 9mm, I don't see much benefit in putting in something that's so similar to the Beretta 92. More is always better, but I don't think it's game breaking or anything. If you want to replace the DE, it should be with something comperable in game mechanics. I'd prefer a magnum revolver, but for small bursts of big damage it might make more sense to use a short auto-shotgun or SMG or something.

the L85 should be implimented as an assault rifle because that's what it actually is

Is there really going to be much difference with a longer barrel at typical KF distances?

and it's boggling to wonder why you chose the uncommon short-barreled version

Because Tripwire loves action movies, and firing with pistol grips from the hip looks really cool in movies. Like the AK's stock always being folded.

and gave it the power output of a pistol-caliber sub-machine gun

.223 isn't huge or anything, but it should be quite more damaging per hit than a pistol.

it would make more sense and would be easier to pass off as plausable to impliment weapons like (...) instead of the AK-47

The AK is ok. The military guys don't pop out of the chopper with them, they buy them from the trader. And if a shady private corporation has their own killer goon squad (eaten by zombies) it's perfectly reasonable to think crazy mercs would bring in their own ordinance, and AK is a great choice for that. So the Trader has some AKs, and we buy them.

7.62x39 is more powerful than .223, but not as much as it feels like in-game. If they wanted it to make a bit more sense, I would say turn the bullpup into a P90, since the 5.7x28 feels like tiny little things compared to the larger AK round. (giving some penetration to the P90 would be awesome, too)

FN Five-Seven (to replace the Desert Eagle)

This doesn't make any sense. Sorry. A tiny little round (with nice penetration, granted) to replace the huge slow magnum round?

Beretta M12 (...) or even the MP5

A 9mm SMG would be ok, but I don't see how it would fit in. The game works well currently with A) small caliber, accurate, low-damage, high-cap weapon, and B) larger caliber, more damaging, less accurate, higher recoil, lower capacity weapon. Turning the .223 into B and adding an SMG for A doesn't make much sense to me. I don't know how much worse the ballistics would be of a 9mm fired from a carbine compared to a .223.

And remove the katana completely.

Eh. It's a powerful weapon, in-game, if they took it away they would have to re-balance all the melee weapons. And I bet there's a lot of replica/prop Katanas floating around the UK. Sure they would break once people started using them, but again, Movie Magic.

(Katana) represents every action-media cliche that could ever exist.

Yep, now you're getting it. Tripwire doesn't care about realism. Think less Documentary, more John Woo.

You put a traditional weapon used in feudal Japan into a game that takes place in modern-day Britain.

More like a weapon you find in nearly every teenage boy's closet.

You took something that could have been wonderful

There's some things that could be improved. It's still a damn fine game as is, and (IMO!) even better after Heavy Metal.

stupid update that made it impossible to play without modifications to balance

Not impossible, just challenging.

throwing new weapons into the game for a fanbase that doesn't actually seem to prominently exist.

I would say the vast majority of KF players don't read the forums, don't care about magazine-vs-clip, don't care that the AK is stuck on safe, and don't really care that much about anything but having some fun and killing some Zeds. I think the balance is quite good. I didn't play back when FPs and Bloats would stop moving every time they attack, but it seems like it would be really easy and boring.

I hope you can see I do agree with many things you are suggesting, and I would love a few cosmetic changes here and there. But the premise that the game is unplayable or broken or that HM screwed everything up is just not going to be universally acknowledged. I suggest giving it another shot, trying different tactics, switch things up, and just look at having fun and put the "people dual-wielding Desert Eagles graaaaaaaaaa" rage behind you. It's silly, it's ridiculous, but it's fun and there's Zeds out there that need shooting.



PS: Deagles graaaaaaaaa!
 

widowmaker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 24, 2009
180
7
0
There's enough derogatory "noob" comments thrown around so I won't needlessly add to the pile. It's not clear what you really want. At first you say that support specialists can't deal with fleshpounds, then you say it's overpowered. On normal difficulty, you should be able to 2 shot the fleshpound at point blank with the double barrel shotgun. Shoot once before he rages so you have time to reload, then unload on it again when it's raged. As stated before, learn to decap the fleshpound. Anyone can do it with a pistol, or heck even a knife.
 

Bio666

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 10, 2009
788
2
0
This topic in a nutshell:
1. A n00b post.
[...]many disagree post
2. A pro word-wall
[...]something here

and... THIS TROLL POST hahahahaha
 

Erza

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 2, 2009
3
0
0
TEATIME LAND.
Your having problems on normal with level 4 perks????? Game is actually easier with less players since all specimens have less health and waves are shorter. Even suicidal is a walk in the park in solo mode.

I find that hard is too easy, (even with 5 other noobs) while suicidal is unfair at times. (like 4 FPs and 4 sirens at the same time)

No. Keyword: Fleshpounds.
 

Ihmhi

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 7, 2009
401
6
0
36
www.asseater.org
On Normal with six people, FPs go down with three double-shots from the Hunting Shotgun.

I can't quite understand how you would have any problems with the game if you've managed to get your perks to Level 4, unless you did it with levelling servers.
 

Griever

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 16, 2009
419
2
0
Finland
On Normal with six people, FPs go down with three double-shots from the Hunting Shotgun.

I can't quite understand how you would have any problems with the game if you've managed to get your perks to Level 4, unless you did it with levelling servers.

I could swear he leveled them. FPs are not a problem on hard difficulty either. You just have to know how to play.
 

Steg

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 10, 2009
133
33
0
No. Keyword: Fleshpounds.

Have you tried decapitating the Fleshpounds? Once you get the hang of it, it's amazing the difference it makes. (And you'll still have like a 10% chance it'll fail and you'll get a spinning grinder fist in your guts, which is always nice)

1) See FP. Do not shoot.
2) Run up to FP. Stand there. Look cool.
3) Watch FP get confused by your brass ones, and start to attack you.
4) When he tips his head forward, like he's doing a head-butt, shoot him in the top of his head. (best with Bullpup/AK/9mm)
5) When the head pops off and spurts blood (cool!) pull out knife and run away.

Victory!

As for a power decrease, Zeds have fewer HP if fewer people are playing. So a FP with 6 players is stronger than a FP with 2 players.
 

Nanostrike

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
2,025
250
0
If this guy is having trouble on NORMAL with a Level 4, imagine what he'll be facing if he ever moves up to Hard! I'd suggest a nice, balanced RPG for him to play instead of this brutally hard game.

Sad part is that he'll probably never even find his post again, seeing as how he was brilliant enough to post this in the wrong forum and get it moved...