A list of vital alterations to infantry mechanics. (Lots of Pics and Scheming)

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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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what are you talking about? simulating stress under fire is super easy to simulate in a game, arma2 does this very well. You get shot at (suppressed) and your aim goes to hell. You decide you want to sprint 100m and then fire, your aim will be crap aswell. RO2 already does this, just the weapon sway variables are to small.

Honestly, I need to just go dig up my old posts and save all the links. I'm so tired of re-typing this mess.

In RO2, if you attempt to shoot back while you're getting suppressed, you'll catch a bullet through your cranium if your suppressor is worth their jackboots. I have never been in a situation where I have needed to sprint 100m and then immidiately try to take a bead and aim on a target that was greater than 20 meters from me. Rather than trying to shoot standing up like a pillock and having to make that godawful respawn jog again, I drop on my face and start trying to identify targets before they can spot me.

Honestly people the level of hyperbole in these posts makes my head spin. I have never been in situations even remotely close to what you guys are describing in my 30+ hours of playing, and I'm pretty handy at run-and-gun FPSs like TF2. I came into RO2 expecting something different, and all my attempts to run and gun quickly end with me looking at a ready button. So I got smart, changed my tactics, and now my survivability is way up not by running 100m and pulling off perfect shots, but by shooting the stupid pillock who's dumb enough to try and take a shot from standing from my concealed location on the way to the capture point.

I've said it before a thousand times, I'll say it once more.

If you were in a defensive position, and some chucklehead on the enemy team sprints into the open, stops, acquires you, and shoots you before you drop his dumb keister, you absolutely deserved to die. There is no excuse for that beyond just being plain bad at the game.
 

Zoring

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
1,408
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Perth, Western Australia
All we are trying to say is that if their is a suppression system, and it does nothing useful, what is the point of it? A MG'er in a stupid position will get plonked sure, but one in a good position can still be zapped by a suppressed soldier because there is no penalty for being suppressed.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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All we are trying to say is that if their is a suppression system, and it does nothing useful, what is the point of it? A MG'er in a stupid position will get plonked sure, but one in a good position can still be zapped by a suppressed soldier because there is no penalty for being suppressed.

There is a penalty for being suppressed. It's called having to take cover and being unable to lay eyes on a target that knows where you are and has his sights trained on your location. I've shot plenty of pop-up riflemen that tried to beat me in a "who can shoot who fastest" contest. If I'm deployed and ready to shoot and they're squatting behind a bit of wall or in a trench, they lose 9/10 times. There's your suppression penalty right there. If they had a brain, they'd relocate and try to work their way around me (assuming I don't relocate as soon as they escape) as opposed to popping out of cover to try and out-snipe me.

As an MG'er, focus on staying as low to the ground as possible and narrowing your cone of fire while maximizing your concealment and cover from as many directions as possible. It's remarkably effective, especially on servers without killcams, as you can quickly drop people with short, controlled bursts as soon as they appear in your sights, and you're so well concealed that they can only see you if they're in your crosshairs. Just scoot around a bit and harass the same area, and they'll find it impossible to ignore you.
 

luciferintears

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2011
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There is a penalty for being suppressed. It's called having to take cover and being unable to lay eyes on a target that knows where you are and has his sights trained on your location.

We all agree that there is penalty, it's just not enough.

Here is what happens when i encounter a machine gunner.

1. He sees me and shoots; 90% they miss
2. I take cover
3. Suppresses me a bit.
4. detach from cover, and go prone
5. crawl over to the side of the object.
6. Peek out from the bottom
7. Catch the gunner off guard by shooting him from below the cover rather than peek my head out from the top.

And all the while i'm suppressed. Honestly, i encounter the bug where i get infinite suppression, so i'm quite used to playing while fully suppressed lol
 

DeusIrae

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
360
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Agree with a lot of these points. I like the lack of sway in RO2 when you're at full stamina but agree that more sway needs to be introduced at critically low stamina (when there is no rest on cover for the weapon), after holding iron sites for a period of time and possibly while suppressed. Bandaging does need tweaks but it's so obvious you'd think the devs are aware and on to it. Definitely need to prevent sprinting when shot in the leg v_v.

I hope a dev comments on this post, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts and if they intend to move RO2 towards this model or a similar model and, if so, to what degree.
 

Red_

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 20, 2011
11
13
0
Yes, the optical focus is not the target, it is your front post, so your target is actually blurry and this is what it made so damn hard to hit targets beyond 100m, back then and today.

With my M16 I'm able to score hits at max effective range, 600m, with iron sights. Of course I'm not under duress on the range, but maybe you've heard of the Battle of Belleau Wood? The Marine Corps sharpshooters were extraordinary accurate, and we're talking about WWI.
 

Philip_of_Macedon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
5
0
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Honestly people the level of hyperbole in these posts makes my head spin. I have never been in situations even remotely close to what you guys are describing in my 30+ hours of playing, and I'm pretty handy at run-and-gun FPSs like TF2. I came into RO2 expecting something different, and all my attempts to run and gun quickly end with me looking at a ready button. So I got smart, changed my tactics, and now my survivability is way up not by running 100m and pulling off perfect shots, but by shooting the stupid pillock who's dumb enough to try and take a shot from standing from my concealed location on the way to the capture point.

You need to argue the point that most are trying to make. The amount of sway is unrealistic. Its not, and to say you can pull off the shots in real war that you can at the range just tells everyone you don't know what you're talking about. Sway would simulate combat stress. Therefore sway in a good suggestion. The amount of sway that could be added is also a point to argue.
 

Makino

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2005
576
86
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Brazil
www.hitconfirm.com.br
My thoughts on what i disagree, not that anybody will care but.

Chapter 1: Weaponry

- Dramatically Increase weapon sway on rifles and heavy weapons. Based on fatigue, suppression and stance.

- Increase semi/bolt action recoil.

Increase the sway, i agree when you are fatigated. But not as RO1 where you were with full stamina and the gun swayed like crazy.



- Remove the zoom feature for all Non-Scoped weapons and do not zoom in while bringing up iron-sights.



No, many others gave the awnser, just because it was harder it didnt mean it was realistic. Zoom is not realistic either but it is more than not having zoom imho.

In RO1 rarely you had to aim higher to hit a visible enemy too, it was just a matter of point and click, now the modders can make really big maps where you will need to adjust the weapon sights and still see the enemy.


- Bring back bayonet attack holding.

So a bayonet should not kill in 1 good hit on the chest/head?



Chapter 2: Movement


- Introduce acceleration to sprint




A little acceleration, yes. Not too dramatic as you are suggesting.


- Limit the turn angle while sprinting


I think a better idea is not to limit the turn angle but decelerate him when he turns more than a limit.


Nevertheless it feels weird reminding the studio who came up with these features to put them back in the game. What were you thinking Tripwire?

I love RO1 as much as you but calling RO2 took the Call of Duty gameplay route is overreacting a lot, or just prove me you are right.

I think the game behaves more realistic than RO1 in terms of gameplay, so put back which features? The unrealistic "he is at 100m but feels like 200+"? Or the "i have Parkinson after 3 seconds in ironsights"?
 
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Spacehogking

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 28, 2011
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One thing I disagree with: Bayonets shouldn't be 'detachable', they should be 'attachable' :)

The bayonet should be a situational thing, not some upgrade. It really contributed to the atmosphere of battle when you saw your fellowmen attaching their bayonets in RO. Now it's an 'upgrade'.

Gah.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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We all agree that there is penalty, it's just not enough.

Here is what happens when i encounter a machine gunner.

1. He sees me and shoots; 90% they miss
2. I take cover
3. Suppresses me a bit.
4. detach from cover, and go prone
5. crawl over to the side of the object.
6. Peek out from the bottom
7. Catch the gunner off guard by shooting him from below the cover rather than peek my head out from the top.

And all the while i'm suppressed. Honestly, i encounter the bug where i get infinite suppression, so i'm quite used to playing while fully suppressed lol

That's the MG'ers fault. I've actually taken quite a liking to MG'er lately, and if I'm in a position where people can ascertain where I am as soon as I've fired a volley, I've failed. If I miss my volley and they take cover and begin to move, I don't sit there like a pillock, I start crawling and relocate as quickly as possible. I'm just one guy, and I can't cover my flanks. I'm not going to get into a stand up fight with a gun I have to deploy.

LMGs in this game are ambush weapons. They're very accurate, very powerful, and perfect for sneaking around prone. I spend most of my time creeping around the cap (Station, Spartanovka, or Red October Factory) or the flanks (Apartments, Red October Factory, Fallen Fighters) and surprising riflemen as they run past me to the front. It's getting to the point where I can hold off several riflemen at once through ambush tactics, shoot and scoot, and generally being a royal pain in the Axis.
 

Welcome_To_Hell

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2007
85
72
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I think the game behaves more realistic than RO1 in terms of gameplay, so put back which features? The unrealistic "he is at 100m but feels like 200+"? Or the "i have Parkinson after 3 seconds in ironsights"?

Have you ever held a battle rifle? My Garand is really hard to hold unsupported.

It is heavy. Left hand gets tired very quickly when you raise it to sights, and the tired arm sway is way more potent than In RO1. Honestly I can't hold the rifle sighted in for more than 30-40 seconds without my left arm going sore.

In Real life, a millimeter off at the sights can be feet off the target down range.

After every shot, the aim is offset a little bit, not only because of the kick, but because of the smoke the target has to be reacquired. And without ear protection the first shot you take will leave your ears ringing.

Again this goes to the previous argument on "armchair grunt's", people who think they know the way it actually is, but delusional at best. I do not have any military experience so I cannot comment on fear or tactics.

Having said that I have fired plenty of WWII era weapons and I can tell you that the Effects in RO1 are not as potent as they are in Real Life. But they simulate weaponry exceptionally well for a videogame and are much more realistic than RO2. (Except the recoil on some weapons)
 
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Makino

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2005
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Brazil
www.hitconfirm.com.br
Have you ever held a battle rifle? My Garand is really hard to hold unsupported.

It is heavy. Left hand gets tired very quickly when you raise it to sights, and the tired arm sway is way more potent than In RO1. Honestly I can't hold the rifle sighted in for more than 30-40 seconds without my left arm going sore.

In Real life, a millimeter off at the sights can be feet off the target down range.

After every shot, the aim is offset a little bit, not only because of the kick, but because of the smoke the target has to be reacquired. And without ear protection the first shot you take will leave your ears ringing.

Again this goes to the previous argument on "armchair grunt's", people who think they know the way it actually is, but delusional at best. I do not have any military experience so I cannot comment on fear or tactics.

Having said that I have fired plenty of WWII era weapons and I can tell you that the Effects in RO1 are not as potent as they are in Real Life. But they simulate weaponry exceptionally well for a videogame and are much more realistic than RO2. (Except the recoil on some weapons)

I know they are heavy, but the sway on RO1 is unrealistic too.

An idea i gave on another thread is like you are saying it should work irl: When you hold the rifle unsupported you drain your stamina the longer you stay in IS mod. What you think about it?
 

Welcome_To_Hell

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2007
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That would be even more unrealistic than the way it is right now but most importantly, very annoying. Imagine you engage a target, than quickly need to run away, because of return fire and grenades. But are unable to do so because of lack of stamina. I do not want to criticize your suggestion because it would make sense when holding down "Hold breath" button for a "Substantially Long" amount of time, but clearly you have not thought this through carefully.

Being sighted in with a rifle tires the left arm 90%, since the bulk of the weight is being supported by it. It does not, tire your legs, or knock out your breathing.

Iron-sight Sway in RO1 is more realistic than in any other videogame I have played, it forces the sight to move about, but is still correctable with the mouse. And a skilled player can still engage somewhat effectively. Just start up the game and try it. This accurately simulates fatigue to the arm that is holding up the weapon, while does not completely hinder the gameplay since there is weapon resting afterall, I consider it to be a fair tradeoff.
 

Makino

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2005
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Brazil
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That would be even more unrealistic than the way it is right now but most importantly, very annoying. Imagine you engage a target, than quickly need to run away, because of return fire and grenades. But are unable to do so because of lack of stamina. I do not want to criticize your suggestion because it would make sense when holding down "Hold breath" button for a "Substantially Long" amount of time, but clearly you have not thought this through carefully.

Being sighted in with a rifle tires the left arm 90%, since the bulk of the weight is being supported by it. It does not, tire your legs, or knock out your breathing.

Iron-sight Sway in RO1 is more realistic than in any other videogame I have played, it forces the sight to move about, but is still correctable with the mouse. And a skilled player can still engage somewhat effectively. Just start up the game and try it. This accurately simulates fatigue to the arm that is holding up the weapon, while does not completely hinder the gameplay since there is weapon resting afterall, I consider it to be a fair tradeoff.

Yeah, you are right.

Start up RO2 and aim unsupported, there is the breathing sway and the arm sway. Thinking more carefully i think the problem lies in the hold breath as it negates both for a second or two but when it ends it doesnt give any penalties to you afterwards for having the breath held.
 

Hoak

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 1, 2006
214
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i dont know about you, but hitting something at 400 m using no zoom in RO1 and other games its quite easy, remeber that pointing a weapon ingame is WAY EASIER than pointing a weapon in RL.

the zoom is reduntant, most maps dont have long distances enought to require it, and it just neglects the advantage of scoped weapons.

no zoom will even make smgs less deadlier at long range, and supression fire usefull, since you will have less popup headshots.
You quite simply can't see a man size target 100m in RO1 at 1080p, no less 400m, it's simple math of pixelation and distance. You obviously need to remeasure...

The OP has some general ideas about weapon handling that are on track, but there's more lucid discussion here...
 

ROII4Me

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2011
196
103
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"How about just asking Tripwire to remake RO1 instead.

Problem Solved.
You're welcome."

That is exactly what they should have done and then improved what was there by adding the new cover system, new breathing system.

Otherwise, I agree with much of what the OP said. Not having a sway difference between standing, crouching and prone is inexcusably lame.

The ONE thing this game has going for it over RO1 is the cover system, being able to hug cover and use it to steady one's fire. If that was in RO1 I would never play RO2 again - not unless they make some major changes to the hokey arcadeness.

I did not play Beta, so I came to launch expecting this to be Red Orchestra 2. It is RO2 in name only. I hope that changes over time.

***

As for what someone else said - WWII soldiers WERE taught to aim with both eyes open, at least Americans were.

They were also taught to hold their breath as a trick to steady their aim. Not for 30 seconds at a time, but for a second or two. That is not going to have influence on how much oxygen are in the eye or brain.

But I if recall it is more that you exhale and stop, not taking in another breath until you pull the trigger. That relaxes your muscles and is quite different from sucking in air and holding it, which creates tension and also sends more CO2 to the brain after 4 or 5 seconds.

***

Gotta drop some of the arcadeness - this game should never require modders to make a realism mod to make Hardcore more realistic.

I paid for it and I have had fun, but I am about ready to go back to RO and Darkest Hour, coming back to ROII once they put it back in the oven and finish baking it.

I am hoping the game will improve so I actually can tell friends it is worth the money.

The Devs would be wise to follow many of the suggestions in this thread.
 
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Welcome_To_Hell

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2007
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Exactly my feelings.

The gameplay feels much like COD 5 World at War just without the stupid dogs.
Unlocks?
Recon planes?
Stats bonuses that don't even work properly?

What was tripwire thinking...
Visual customization would be much more welcome in my book.

I shall look forward to reinstalling the game in few months.

Oh wait... than everyone will have uberweapons and stat bonuses... That shall attract new customers!
 

Sufyan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
301
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Sweden
Oh the irony, the OP is advocating the removal of variable field of view, then goes on to talk about how player characters are out of scale to the game world. This is an optical illusion, a byproduct from how all scales get messed up while you are NOT zooming, ie when you are just moving around as usual. Hold down shift and EVERYTHING starts looking the way it should.

The photographic evidence provided in the OP is irrelevant and misleading. You don't know what lenses, elevation and zoom levels were used for the photos. Put a camera at chest height (as most tripods would be) and the people you are shooting will look taller. Put 4x zoom on your camera and objects in the background is going to look bigger behind your subject. A wide angle lense is going to make everything look small and distant, similar to the default view in the game. The game looks photo realistic but it deprives you of some level of control you should reasonably have over your virtual soldier. Bringing up ironsights without tightening the field of view would be the same as trying to aim through the viewfinder of a 1x zoom camera, ie a depth perception very different from our own eyes. while what we get when we hold down shift is the same thing we would see with the naked eye minus a whole lot of peripheral vision (which does not fit on a flat 2D monitor).

The OP is mostly stuffed with good ideas, except for the field of view/scale and bayonet discussion which is built on false assumptions and misleading evidence.