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A list of vital alterations to infantry mechanics. (Lots of Pics and Scheming)

Welcome_To_Hell

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 22, 2007
85
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RO was a masterpiece, and I feel that instead of capitalizing on very well built and polished infantry gameplay mechanic Tripwire went into the "Cawadoodie" model to attract more players! It looks great, it feels fast but its not the same game anymore, its just another arcade shooter with fancy tank interiors.

Well for me the magic of the RO mod and Ostfront is gone! But I have ideas on how RO2 can regain the charm and wisdom of its ancestors. If tripwire does not listen, i hope some modders will. Would be pretty ironic to have to mod RO to make it "RO" :eek:


Chapter 1: Weaponry

- Dramatically Increase weapon sway on rifles and heavy weapons. Based on fatigue, suppression and stance.

- Increase semi/bolt action recoil.

Reason: A lot of people including myself are complaining that the weapons are way too accurate. Well they are supposed to be accurate, keep the accuracy as is, do not add bullet dispersion or over the top recoil. Players can run stop shoot with incredible accuracy and run again. Standing is just as accurate as crouch or prone.

There is no force moving the rifle about like it did in RO1. Making the aim substantially harder. Making variables like, stance, and fatigue as well as weapon resting crucial for accurate fire.

Currently bolt actions feel like Phazers. Since neither the recoil nor bolting offset where I am pointing. Semi-auto recoil is fine it just does not feel as sharp as it did in RO1. But it should offset the rifle more like in RO1, these are insta-kill weapons after-all.

Suggestion: Revert to the RO system! Add A LOT OF WEAPON SWAY. More fatigue = more weapon sway! Stance matters. Standing sighted in should increase sway quickly, crouched not as quick, when prone slowly, when deployed sway should be non-existent.

Benefits: Would put an end to this sprint fire sprint nonsense. More tactics!

Just like in RO1 players would be resting behind a cover before attempting to engage anyone!


- Remove the zoom feature for all Non-Scoped weapons and do not zoom in while bringing up iron-sights.

Reason: This is not ArmA. Rarely do we engage targets further than 100 meters away. Ruins balance, realism and fun. Negates the advantages from scoped weapons on most maps. Makes the game feel arcadish. Insta headshot fest that any noob can participate in, instead of, epic rifle exchanges where the best pixel-hunter wins!

There is no eye-zoom in the rl :)

Distance Estimating from RO1 is completely killed by the zoom and its effect, since there is nothing further than a straight-shot away which destroys the purpose of adjustable sights in the first place.

Suggestion: Remove the zoom feature completely, instead make the same key hold breath which would significantly reduce weapon sway!


In RO2 Field of view and zoom levels are constantly changing when the player is sprinting, sighting in, zooming.

This is very annoying!

Do not zoom in and change the Field of view when bringing up sights, just bring the model closer to camera instead! Like it was in RO
!

Benefits: Harder aiming! This would change the gameplay entirely, and for the better! Implemented together with RO weapon-sway and fatigue would bring back the RO feel and make the engagements longer and more intense!

Here is a comparison of RO and RO2 sights!


































- Bring back bayonet attack holding.

Reason: Current instakill bayonet is unrealistic and aracadish. While hitting someone with the stock of the rifle takes a dozen hits before it even registers. I get more kills clearing rooms with a bayonet than with the pistol and rifle combined.

Suggestion: Bring back the old RO mechanic where the longer the melee button is held down the more damage the bayonet will do. Also maybe the speed could be factored in. Players who sprint with bayonet charged would do more damage. On the second thought, current non-bayonet melee attack is fine. Holding it down like in RO, would be silly.

Benefits: Players won't be able to arcade-insta-stab a whole room
of people. Instakills will still be possible if the bayonet is "charged" enough, just like in previous game.


- Bring back detachable bayonets

Reason: Currently there is no difference between bayonet and no bayonet regarding important factors such as: Weapon Sway, Collision with environment. Bayonets have a clear advantage in melee, however it is not of balanced by disadvantages in CQB handling and weapon sway. This feature has been requested countless times.

Suggestion: Bring back the detachable bayonets from RO1. Make the weapon sway a bit larger while shooting from standing, a tiny-tiny bit larger when shooting from crouch. However from prone, or when the rifle is rested bayonet would have no effect on thew weapon sway.

Benefits: Players presented with a tactical decision instead of an arcade (COD) unlock:

A clear advantage in melee vs disadvantage in unsupported gunnery and close quarters handling. (Since the bayonet adds to overall length of the weapon)


Chapter 2: Movement


- Introduce acceleration to sprint


Reason: currently players are instantaneously jumping to full speed, this feels very arcadish and silly also subtracts from RO feeling, no sense of occasion in movement. Most people are tunnel visioned and have no idea where they are going. Running around like a headless chicken and hipfiring at point blank range.

Suggestion: Add a substantial animated acceleration delay when beginning to sprint, similar to RO

Benefits: Movement more tactical, more thought on players behalf on where to go and where not to go. Less run and gun, more fire and maneuver.

- Limit the turn angle while sprinting

Reason: currently players are able to turn on a dime while sprinting and crouch-sprinting. Again very arcadish. Turning 90-180 at full sprint is ridiculously silly.

Suggestion: Turning with mouse can rotate the player maximum 15-20 degrees while sprinting. From 11 to 1 o'clock.

Benefits: Again Movement more tactical. Players sprinting from cover to cover instead of wiggling about! More teamwork, vital to establish a base of fire or throw smoke in order to cross no mans land before cover.


- Slow down or fall over (go prone), when shot in the legs and lower body

Reason: Players Zerg through a hail of fire getting hit by bullets all over, regardless of which they are able to stab instakill everyone in the room, than simply bandage up in 1 sec. Bayonets should be a last resort when there is no ammo, or situation demands it. Not Leeroy jenkins insta-stab the whole room of submachinegunners than bandage up and frog away. Leave this feature to Cawaddody!

Suggestion: [Only while running] Getting shot in the feet or legs with a large caliber weapon would force change player in prone stance (Maybe with a fall animation). Much like in Darkest hour. [All stances] Also getting shot in the legs with smaller caliber weapons (SMG, pistols) would slow player down. (Wounded walk animation?)

Benefits: Bring back RO Feature! Less zerging, more teamwork. Another reason to employ tactics, more thought put in movement. Adds another dimension to CQB firefights.


- Slightly Increase Bandaging Time. Increase bleed out interval.

Reason: Currently even the bandaging is way too arcade, it is a health pack button, instead of an attempt at medic system. Countless times I see players gunned down in a hip fire contest where the winner of the hipfire contest is not even affected by the wounds. Run into a room Sprint n' Spray bandage within 1 second Sprint and Spray again. More than enough time to bandage up before enemy's teammates can sprint into the room.

Players should seek cover to effectively bandage up, have their teammates cover them while they are vulnerable.

Right now it goes like this on numerous occasions: Guys run across the open, get shot, bandage up in 1 sec right there in the open where they were hit, keep sprinting before another shot comes in.

Feels like this system that allows easily to get away with getting shot actually encourages lone-wolfing and going rambo for the kills (Cawadoodie style)
Instead of teamwork.


Suggestion: Depending on the wound Increase the time in which player can bandage up before bleeding out. Which will allow for more time to seek cover and teammates. Increase the time it takes to bandage up. 4-5 Seconds. Possibly add something that let's your teammates know that you are wounded, so they can cover you while bandaging.

Benefits: MORE TEAMWORK, less Cawadoodie lone-wolfing.
A lot more beneficial to stay in squad. Chances of survival increased with teammates covering the doors/windows while you bandage up. Less zerging.

Chapter 3: Weapon Collision with Environment and Cover system

- Scale up the character models until they are 1:1 with the game-world. Add weapon collision sound effects.

Reason: Currently character models are way too small, compared to the world that they exist in. There is another thread on that here, and i am going to steal some pictures from it to show an example. I imagine this is done due to the realistic weapon collision with environment system where if the scale of Environment vs Character had to be lowered otherwise rifles would be useless in doorways, always getting stuck, making it furosterating for newcomers.

Well This Destroyes the point of having weapon collision with environment in the first place, since no class gains advantages/disadvantages from it!




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Right now the weapon scale in CQB is irrelevant. Players with long rifles (Bayonets attached), MG's, AT-Rifles, can maneuver and engage, just as well as players with SMG's and Pistols. This is incredibly unrealistic and destroys the purpose of the weapon collision system in the first place. Since more cumbersome weapons should clearly be at a disadvantage in close quarters.

If this is implemented it would make targets even easier to hit, well that is why I consider the removal of the "shift zoom" and weapon sway implementation vital to improving the overall gameplay experience. This quote explains the gunnery aspect of this:
Actually it can have some impact on gameplay.

In a game with a world modelled after real life, when we look at things such as walls, doors, windows, trucks and more that we've all seen in real life we tend to use their apparent size to determine distance and to estimate what size other things in the game are going to be relative the things we've seen.

For instance, looking through a doorway, one would assume that aiming approximately 1/4 from the top would be pretty close to the head of someone walking through the door. In the game taking that shot would be over the head of someone walking through the doorway.
Same thing would apply to windows and walls. From a distance you could aim at the corner and approximate the height of a man compared to the size of bricks and how hight the windows are, but again, if the scale is different between the world and the characters, things become strange.

Now that I think about it this scale inconsistency might be the reason why I've always felt that the kill distances where a lot longer than what the game said.

Would it not be possible to increase the size of the player characters so that they fit into the world better?

Also This shows how "shift zoom" is more of an arcade feature. In regards that the scale is not the same between first person, character models and the gameworld. Again Distance Estimating from RO1 is completely killed by the zoom and its effect, since there is nothing further than a straight-shot away which destroys the purpose of adjustable sights in the first place.


Suggestion: Scale up the models so they are at 1:1 ratio with the surroundings. Introduce sound's for weapon collisions with environment. Another mod for the Unreal by the name of "Infiltration", modeled this exceptionally well.

Infiltration - Weapon Collisions & Interaction with the Environment

Benefits: MORE TEAMWORK. Sticking to Squad Leaders and players with SMG's to cover each other, instead of Zeging! More tactical decisions and depth to the gameplay, less arcade. Classes would be more useful and have clear advantages/disadvantages [SMG - handy indoors, rate of fire, Rifle - cumbersome indoors, great damage and penetration]. More thought and tactical decisions required on players behalf. Different choice of position, cover and field of fire.






I will be writing up more on cover system and tanks.


Nevertheless it feels weird reminding the studio who came up with these features to put them back in the game. What were you thinking Tripwire? It would make more sense to capitalize and what is already there and accepted by the player base instead of trying to squeeze into the (BF/COD) area. Why do you think Red Orchestra fans play Red Orchestra? Well i am sure it has something to do with these realistic non-arcadish features in the first two games and the "feel" of combat, certainly not the visuals.

For fast-paced shooters with great graphics there is always Cawadoodie. (Call of Duty)
 
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Bayoing in RO1 was hillarious because it was the furthest thing from realistic, people dolphin diving around trying to jump prone bayo people.

Bayo-ing should not go back to RO1, but i do like the charge bit.

Also the zoom is due to them actually doing research and that is the 1:1 aspect ratio, basically thats what you WOULD see irl. but they let you zoom out so that you can get 90 fov and actuall see stuff and not have tunnel vision 24/7.

Everything else yes.
 
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The zoom is needed in this game. Unlike RO1, its much harder to pick out targets on the countryside.

What countryside? I haven't killed anything with a rifle at more than 120 meters. Even then the targets head was large enough to headshot without zooming on spartanovka.


Also went outside with my rifle, looked down the sights and i don't see how it is even remotely close to RO2 effect. It is nothing like in-game zoomed in even if there was much wider field of vision even with one eye closed looking down the barrel. Bring the rifle to sights and that's it. Only thing that can make the sight bigger is moving the head closer to it.

The front post with and the post guard are still tiny compared to everything else. RO2 however is a magnify effect that makes everything, including the front post BIGGER THAN IT ACTUALLY IS.
 
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Great contribution, W2Hell!

Back in my ArmA modding times, I completely removed the zoom, because there is no such thing (hell, I'd love to zoom in on my pistol targets like that IRL!)

In RO2 the distances are waaaay shorter (longest kill so far was about 293m, which is not even considered a sniping distance!) than in ArmA and RO1.

However, the hold breath feature has to go, too. It also has to be seperately bindable. I'd call the feature "control breath" because holding your breath is the worst thing you could do to steady a weapon. The eye will, with insufficient oxygen, be the first organ to reduce effectiveness. You'll see a false image, a copy of what actually happened at the time your brain processed the scene before you held your breath.

The controled breathing is implemented already, but named wrong, however, the magic zoom can not be translated into "sight focus" because you won't see more maginification wise, you will see your front post better.

Yes, the optical focus is not the target, it is your front post, so your target is actually blurry and this is what it made so damn hard to hit targets beyond 100m, back then and today.

Hence the invention of so called red dots/reflex sights or the modern holographic sights.

I am not sure if soldiers in WW2 were trained to shoot with both eyes open. I only know I was trained to shoot my scoped rifle that way, to preserve situational awareness/peripheral vision. For most people it is an awkward method to shoot a gun with both eyes open, even as a child you play "cowboy/indian" with your finger pistol and one eye closed.

That would actually be the 2D scope overlay thing, TWI did not add. They made the 3D scopes probably with both eyes open in mind. However, this would make the zoom counterproductive.

But all this realistic aiming is useless if you shoot as accurate as the current soldiers. Under artillery fire, enemy machinegun bullets flying above your head (those should produce the distinctive supersonic crack) the player should freak out, increasing sway so he has no means to efficiently shoot back (only blind fire *hint!*), his vision should shake, his sway massive, his heart rate 180+ bpm, stamina zero...

The normal sway would be easy to test for yourself. Just point your finger with extended arm at a wall. If you grab a laser pointer, you will see sway due to muscle tension, tremors, respiratory cycle and so on. Your wall is not 100m away? You do not hold a ~4-5 kg weapon in your hand? Wait...how can the soldier in RO2 be so accurate?

The solution is: increase basic sway dramatically (from now nearly zero to a realistic sway, the DEVs have guns, they can easily check for themselves) and introduce a stamina based sway. Additionaly, add a aiming sway which will increase over time, if the weapon is not rested/supported. In the prone supported, only an up and down breathing induced sway should be present.

Recoil management...

The rifles do kick like they should. But a machinegun won't kick as much as it does now, you go prone and load the bipod, there is enough pressure on the pod by your body mass, that the first burst will not offset your sights much, every consecutive burst will shift the POI as your body is pushed backwards (literally). That would make machinegun fire more accurate, deadly and fearsome as it should be. There is only one MG in your squad, so it should be a precious asset.

I feel like preaching this over and over, but please add barrel mirage.
Hot air over the heated barrel will distort/blur your sight picture, even more so if it is cold outside. In this case 5-10 rounds could cause your sight picture to be disrupted. You don't have to add 30 minutes of cooldown, moving the barrel left-right would solve the issue temporarily and time is not a factor in RO2, since there is no day/night cycle


In conclusion I support the OPs ideas, I just made some additions and added explanations for his valid points.


Update: As the OP said, the zoom that comes with aiming has to go, too. Just messed around with zoming/aiming and the slight zoom ruins the idea of peripheral vison. The weapon goes into the shoulder pocket, not the shoulder pocket to the riflestock (pretty much the same with the spoon and the mouth :D )
 
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Agree with everything except the zoom and bayonet/attack holding.

Melee sucked in RO1. RO2 made it actually useable, and I've never had too much of a problem with registering hits.

The zoom is needed in this game. Unlike RO1, its much harder to pick out targets on the countryside.

Same position as this guy.

Unless you have 12800x8000 monitor you won't be able to see as far as IRL, the zoom fixes that.

Also, melee with butt stock was stupid in RO1, you held it for 10 seconds when IRL you can pull it back all the way in 1 or 2, and bayos SHOULD be that effective, maybe slow down the recharge on it a little, and make melee take stamina too.
 
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Agree with everything except the zoom and bayonet/attack holding.

Melee sucked in RO1. RO2 made it actually useable, and I've never had too much of a problem with registering hits.

The zoom is needed in this game. Unlike RO1, its much harder to pick out targets on the countryside.

I agree with this guy, but I think the zoom should be reduced a bit, and only really noticeable when you use the shift "breath control" ability.
 
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In addition this change to Fixed Bayonet/Unfixed Bayonet.

When the bayonet is fixed the gun is heavier, and therefore sway is increased. This penalty is negated when the weapon is rested on sandbags etc.

Not just 'hold breath' say 'controlled breathing' in-slow out-pause... in-slow out-pause... Just like real shooting the pause is when you take the shot for best results.
 
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And what about implementing claudication for a player who've been shot at legs ? I mean, it would be a great way to add immersion and realism:

1- Slow and very perceptible movement
2- No more able to shoot while standing, prone is the only way you can engage targets
3- Very difficult to scan for enemies while moving: imagine a screen that bounce while you walk :eek:

:p
 
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OP has some good points. It is not that far fetched that the game feels like another action packed arcade shooter with some realistic aspects.
Though I do understand why TWI is not trying to please anymore a niche player base but instead trying to please a wider player base which is understandable from economics viewpoint. Once again, mods will have to correct the stuff that the original game failed to do.
 
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When I was in the army we needed to be able to hit 3 out of 10 shots on a target 300m away. Unscoped.

Without the zoom in RO2 that would be a hard feat.
The zoom mimics the same "focus" when aiming a real gun.

The second zoom (hold breath) is a bit over the top though.

I would like to weigh in the fact that in the game there rarely are 300m distances to be fired, most of the "longer range shots" are about 150-200 meters, and on those distances you can easily hit stationary targets 100% of the time and on the middle (these are firing range statistics, it's quite a bit harder to get battlefield info, since not many people would want to be shot at).
 
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i dont know about you, but hitting something at 400 m using no zoom in RO1 and other games its quite easy, remeber that pointing a weapon ingame is WAY EASIER than pointing a weapon in RL.

the zoom is reduntant, most maps dont have long distances enought to require it, and it just neglects the advantage of scoped weapons.

no zoom will even make smgs less deadlier at long range, and supression fire usefull, since you will have less popup headshots.
 
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I think the reason why alot of the obvious features from RO1 are not in this game (body specific damage, sway, sprint movement and such) is because the UE3 engine is significantly dumbed down for consoles, so they can't even if they wanted to. The devs have already hinted at this.

*And the reason this game uses UE3 is because they still get to use it for free as per the prize for winning that mod competition way back
 
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Disagree with all of part 1, but part 2 has some good ideas. It would certainly help prevent a lot of the more ridiculous run and gunning (I shoot at someone from behind in the middle of a sprint, they whip around instantly and shoot me in the face, etc.).

The weapons are excellent in their current state, IMHO. They look and feel like their real life counterparts, and I feel like I'm actually back at the range (only I'm shooting at pixel people instead of targets).
 
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