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A Discussion on the State of the Squad System
- Thread starter Kipper
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Yes it is. But having to guess which colour stands for what is not exactly helping, I think I have finally worked most of the code out, but without role identifiers listed it is mostly useless information anyway.
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It's not the point, there should be a much quicker way to recognize who you are playing with. Even a damn coloured badge on an arm would be cool to let you know that guy is in your same squad, as simple as that. You would then follow him automatically, especially if you could get bonuses for keeping close toghether. And Squad VOIP, as I mentioned before, should be on CAPS LOCK by default. Never forget that people won't use features unless they give them a big advantage or they are forced to use them. You have to sort of guide people into teamwork, not everyone is like the guys on the forums, most of ppl just hangs out and connects on a pub. Just think of Facebook, internet was there way before that, but the standard guy wouldn't use it until it was simple and clean. Sad fact but true fact.
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Definitely don't agree with the above, because the squad system is essentially a positive option, it does not truly detract from gameplay but potentially enhances it. It just needs some loving attention. "Scrap it" is not the answer. The squad system has so much potential, even for public servers.
One remedy I think of for the general lack of awareness and participation in squads would be to make squad selection the default view for picking roles rather than the default of basic role selection; maybe even get rid of the role selection list view entirely except in Firefight mode. That way it is in everyone's face that they are joining a squad, and they get to glance at the names of the squad leader and the members of the squad.
Another would be to always show the location of not just your SL but also your squad mates in the map. You don't see the whole team, but have an idea of where you are supposed to be if you want to be supporting your squad.
To this end, if it is too unrealistic for some to have some of the suggested floaty icons and such in the HUD to indicate that your squad is nearby, how about something like a small set of squad-only type vocalizations that activate only when you are near your squad leader or other squad members. It would be perhaps something like a rallying cry (bad but serviceable example: "Squad, let's fight them with all we've got!") that is recognizable, probably containing the word "squad" so that when you hear that, you know you are near your squad leader and mates. Unfortunately I can see that this costs some money to produce additional voice messages. But, they needn't be a whole set of them, just a couple of generic ones for Axis and Allies each. Small job.
Just overall, I wish there was more accessible info on how some of this stuff works, particularly orders. For example the f4 confirm f5 deny orders mechanic...what is it supposed to do? I always vaguely assumed it lined you up for more team points if you fulfilled the order, but could never confirm that this was the case.
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Tactial View
Tactial View
Think that we need an icon for each fire team within the squad on the tactical view in addition to the SL icon already present. I do note that when i give fire teams command using the F key they show up on my map. But they need to show on the Tactical view for the SL and the respective Fire team members. So if i am in the 1 - Rifle TM, of 1 Squad, these two icons for location would show up on my tactical view. And when a position changes there needs to be a verbal que only to those in the Squad or Fire Team. some may say this is not realistic, but this is a computer game. in real life you would know your squad members, what they look like and can more freely look around to know where they are. And agree there needs to be a color code for your squad followed by the fire team designation you are in.
I also agree, the join a squad view should be mandatory default for those who want to play this way.
Also, need to let the Platoon commander and SLs give initial commands before game begins. What happens instead, is everyone rushes off and then the Commander and SL have to try to get them back into operating as a unit because there was no intial plan before the battle began.
I have also just started trying to learn the commander tools as well. What ticks me off is having to run around trying to find a radio. Give him a bot or player that carries a radio and follows him. Player/Bot can help with his security too. That way he has the radio nearby as he would in real life, but also makes him a bigger target. How realistic is it that any time you need to call in fire, you run around and find some abandoned radio that happens to be laying around!!!!!!!
One thing i have not figured out is that every time i play commander the artillery icons never light up despite having targets located and being near radio. Not sure if it is coincidence or i am doing somthing wrong.
Tactial View
Think that we need an icon for each fire team within the squad on the tactical view in addition to the SL icon already present. I do note that when i give fire teams command using the F key they show up on my map. But they need to show on the Tactical view for the SL and the respective Fire team members. So if i am in the 1 - Rifle TM, of 1 Squad, these two icons for location would show up on my tactical view. And when a position changes there needs to be a verbal que only to those in the Squad or Fire Team. some may say this is not realistic, but this is a computer game. in real life you would know your squad members, what they look like and can more freely look around to know where they are. And agree there needs to be a color code for your squad followed by the fire team designation you are in.
I also agree, the join a squad view should be mandatory default for those who want to play this way.
Also, need to let the Platoon commander and SLs give initial commands before game begins. What happens instead, is everyone rushes off and then the Commander and SL have to try to get them back into operating as a unit because there was no intial plan before the battle began.
I have also just started trying to learn the commander tools as well. What ticks me off is having to run around trying to find a radio. Give him a bot or player that carries a radio and follows him. Player/Bot can help with his security too. That way he has the radio nearby as he would in real life, but also makes him a bigger target. How realistic is it that any time you need to call in fire, you run around and find some abandoned radio that happens to be laying around!!!!!!!
One thing i have not figured out is that every time i play commander the artillery icons never light up despite having targets located and being near radio. Not sure if it is coincidence or i am doing somthing wrong.
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And how realistic is to move an icon around the map, trying to find a wall that will let you call in for arty on that sweet spot, instead of being able to plot coordinates directly on the map and call in? It's a gameplay decision, cause otherwise commanders would be too overpowered.
Also, I'd really love to get points for respawning people. I'd make it something like N
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Disagree
Disagree
If having an RTO is making commander too powerful, limit the amount of indirect fire missions allocated. And if you want to use coordinate system, that is fine with me. i just do not want to go play hide and seek with a damned radio!
DH did have an RTO player that moved with the commander that i thought worked pretty well and again is more realistic than finding an abandoned radio somewhere on the map. Having an RTO who can provide security when you have your head looking at the map or the command wheel would be nice as well. I got bumped three times last night by someone who infiltrated when i had my head in the map to decide what new orders i needed to give. An RTO could have helped me with security.
Disagree
If having an RTO is making commander too powerful, limit the amount of indirect fire missions allocated. And if you want to use coordinate system, that is fine with me. i just do not want to go play hide and seek with a damned radio!
DH did have an RTO player that moved with the commander that i thought worked pretty well and again is more realistic than finding an abandoned radio somewhere on the map. Having an RTO who can provide security when you have your head looking at the map or the command wheel would be nice as well. I got bumped three times last night by someone who infiltrated when i had my head in the map to decide what new orders i needed to give. An RTO could have helped me with security.
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@Praxius
Wow, big post
Really? That's an average-small size for me
In theory, yes, and usually it's the Commander who does issue the orders, but the SL usualy has to confirm or deny those orders which then is relayed to the rest of the squad..... and I've seen too many commanders who just order all squads to attack or defend the same thing because they can't be bothered to toggle between the squads.
Other times you have no Commander or a Commander who doesn't bother with orders or they give out crap orders, thus the Squad Leaders are the buffer.
I'd probably correct that to focus not on clans or pub servers, but individual players. Even in Pub servers, there are a good % of players who want team work and will listen to orders..... I'm one of them and I know I'm not alone and I do see SL's being very effective in matches when used properly.... which is again, up to the player in question.
The good ol' chain of command.... you listen to your Squad Leader, the SL listens to the Commander. And I know who my SL is, because they're notified on my screen with a name over their head most times.
Then there's the problem..... if you don't listen to your SL then you're adding to the problem you're talking about.
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most of the time SL will not do anything to coordinate his squad. the helpful ones just mark artillery targets but don't communicate with their squad and its really difficult to coordinate when they are at different locations, because theres no way to issue orders before the round begins and afterwards, the spawn on squad leader function doesn't work because he is probably being watched by the enemy.
Squads in BFBC2 acts more like a unit than in RO2 because its much easier to spawn on the squad leader (in BFBC2 case you can spawn on any squad member) regardless if theres enemies looking at them or not.
But, as someone said, there is still features not working properly like that F4 and F5 thing to confirm/deny orders. TWI is well aware that the squad system needs improvements and we will hopefully see some changes in the next patches...
Squads in BFBC2 acts more like a unit than in RO2 because its much easier to spawn on the squad leader (in BFBC2 case you can spawn on any squad member) regardless if theres enemies looking at them or not.
But, as someone said, there is still features not working properly like that F4 and F5 thing to confirm/deny orders. TWI is well aware that the squad system needs improvements and we will hopefully see some changes in the next patches...
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I think fixing the squad system could actually fix big parts in what is experienced in general pub play overall. And most of what is required is streamlining the interface, removing confusion and pushing people in the right direction by for instance having the squad-selection screen the default.
Examples of this, partly stated before, are the Scoreboard and ways of getting notified of orders/rewards for following those. But the easiest things to do first would be the scoreboard (we need to know who does what, and you shouldn't spend >1 seconds finding yourself either).
Examples of this, partly stated before, are the Scoreboard and ways of getting notified of orders/rewards for following those. But the easiest things to do first would be the scoreboard (we need to know who does what, and you shouldn't spend >1 seconds finding yourself either).
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Sl
Sl
i played SL again last night. I love the F key and the middle mouse wheel that lets me scroll through the three fire teams in my squad to give commands to move to locations. Again, these locations i designate for the individual fire teams appear on the map.
What the developers need to work on is the notification to the various squad and/or fire team members, and add the location of the fire team position designated by the squad leader onto the tactical view. They should not just have to look at the map to get this information. Additionally, they need to work some color scheme for floating names to let you look at other playes and see if they are on your squad and/or fire team.
Sl
i played SL again last night. I love the F key and the middle mouse wheel that lets me scroll through the three fire teams in my squad to give commands to move to locations. Again, these locations i designate for the individual fire teams appear on the map.
What the developers need to work on is the notification to the various squad and/or fire team members, and add the location of the fire team position designated by the squad leader onto the tactical view. They should not just have to look at the map to get this information. Additionally, they need to work some color scheme for floating names to let you look at other playes and see if they are on your squad and/or fire team.
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It's far too hard to keep squads together. As a SL you have no idea who is trying to spawn on you, if they can or when they will. As a squad member you don't really gain anything from sticking with the SL, and you don't spawn on him 9/10 times.
The game doesn't really need squads though, pretty much everyone is doing the same objective most of the time.
The game doesn't really need squads though, pretty much everyone is doing the same objective most of the time.
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The squad system should mimic the one in America's Army. It was very clear with who was what. Currently there is nothing tying in players to their own squad.
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RO2 should learn a lot. No stats improvement, state of the art honor system. Who's higher in honor chooses the classes first. Squad selection clear as water. Damn, TWI learn something.
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- With a new map change, highest honor (AAs honor system works the same way RO2's does) gets first pick of role selection
- You can't choose to be a second squad leader if there aren't enough people in the server at the time of map selection (For instance, in RO2 we have 1 SL for every 16 players. Currently there can be multiple SLs without even enough people to form full squads).
- Similarly, you can't be an additional role in another squad (SL, Machinegunner, what-have-you) until there are enough players to form another squad
- Role selection priority is based on previous round performance
- You spawn on the map (In AA it is just once like Countdown) with your Squad Leader
- Teammates are clearly marked on the scoreboard as well as onscreen what squad they are in
- There are squad commands that only appear to members in your squad
RO2 has the option of making this system work very well. Combing the above features with objective bonuses for completing squad leader orders, it could be a lot of fun and realistic. I hope TWI considers it.
I don't like weapon unlocks either. I'd rather have weapon customization centered around looks and maybe some performance (Choosing a C96 instead of a P38, or maybe a PPD40 instead of a PPSH) than weapon leveling.
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The Squad Leader is probably the best class to level to Hero first because you get access to both the semi-auto's and SMG's. Also, you get your smoke grenade which is kick-*** for flanking or used offensively.
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Random idea I just had, but what if they made squads larger so 2 squads right now = 1 squad, but assign each squad two squad leaders and one of them is technically the XO. You could spawn off of either and both earn exp for SL/get the SL weapon layout, but only the none XO SL can give the orders. It would help to keep squads unified as often SL dies and then the squad can't respawn there and slowly dies. This way the 2 SL could spawn off each other allowing the squad to stay together better.
This also fixes another problem that often squads are quite small depending on class selection for instance barracks as an all rifleman squad that I often end up SL of, which means there is no one in my squad. Also it would be a lot easier for commander to direct 2-3 squads instead of 4-6 squads and now when you say Squad 1 attack B, Squad 2 attack C on station you've actually divided up 66-80% of your guys into going for a clear objective.
This also fixes another problem that often squads are quite small depending on class selection for instance barracks as an all rifleman squad that I often end up SL of, which means there is no one in my squad. Also it would be a lot easier for commander to direct 2-3 squads instead of 4-6 squads and now when you say Squad 1 attack B, Squad 2 attack C on station you've actually divided up 66-80% of your guys into going for a clear objective.
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This is the first step to the solution. It is simple. It is inobtrusive. Plz do this TWI!!
PS and fix the squadlist scrolling bug asap plz. This bug causes many players not to bother with the squadlist ever, and many don't know how to circumvent it. Also using squadselection is much quicker so it is hard to set up good squads if random players just select "squadleader" without even knowing what squad or what type of squad they are leading.
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What I think hasn't been mentioned here, and IMHO is a big problem for the squad system to actually work, is that a lot of people choose the squad leader role just for the smg if the assault roles are full. They don't give out any orders, rarely use smoke and often don't even react when your near them and asking for smoke. Because they forgot they actually have it, thinking they are just another assault class, I don't know.
I Think giving them bolt action rifles would make the class far less appealing to a lot of people. Maybe then people who choose the role might actually do their task and command their squad, be available for spawn atleast some of the time, mark artillery targets for the commander etc. Offcourse I also would want them to have a realistic loadout. As in what they would have had in stalingrad. But I think some people can agree this would get some bad seeds out of what could well be a verry important role.
I Think giving them bolt action rifles would make the class far less appealing to a lot of people. Maybe then people who choose the role might actually do their task and command their squad, be available for spawn atleast some of the time, mark artillery targets for the commander etc. Offcourse I also would want them to have a realistic loadout. As in what they would have had in stalingrad. But I think some people can agree this would get some bad seeds out of what could well be a verry important role.
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