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A Discussion on the State of the Squad System

Kipper

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 25, 2006
707
114
0
Connecticut, United States
RO2 has some really effective infrastructure for the squad system currently implemented. Unfortunately, the game, whether it be in normal or "realism" mode currently obscures nearly all of that from the player. Unless the squad and platoon leaders have microphones, the only players currently aware of any assigned orders are the leaders themselves. This needs to be remedied in a bad way for the game to grow and be more accessible to the public.

Firstly, and most importantly, when the platoon leader issues orders to his squad leaders, this needs to show up for everyone in the squad assigned the order. Those of us that have been around RO for a while remember from the mod and Ostfront that there were team voice commands that would say to the entire team "Attack/defend objective X." This is currently missing from the game in the form of both a textual and audio cue. When an order is issued, it must be relayed via audio to the player as well as via text in the chat window. In addition to this, some of the information from the tactical view needs to be made available at all times regardless of pressing "T." Whatever your squad's current objective should be always displayed on your screen as they are currently only when pressing "T." Note that the icon should be scaled back to not be so large but to provide the player with the proper orientation.

Next, to differentiate between the two modes and hopefully encourage teams to stick together as squads two things need to happen. One, your squad mates should always have their names hovering above their heads. While the names aren't inherently realistic, they actually add to the total realism because in combat you tend to know who your buddies are. Secondly, while your map is currently updated with all information (e.g. artillery coordinates, recon aircraft information, etc.) this should only be available to players playing on normal servers. On "realism" servers, I suggest adding this information as an extension of the morale system whereby you gain morale by being near your squad leader. While you are near your squad leader (say, within 50m or whatever number you want), information is updated on your map as the squad leader gets it. So you'd know where artillery is coming in, where the recon plane found enemies, etc. However, if you wander off outside of the range of the leader, this information is no longer displayed.

Finally, icons. With the system outlined above, you should have a small status icon (like that for cover) that displays whether or not you are within range of your leaders. This way you have a visual indication of where you are. Also, and quite importantly, both the player and the squad leader should have and icon or some sort of feedback telling the player if it is possible to spawn on the squad leader or not. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask in game if "TWI has fixed the squad leader spawn bug" yet.

The game has the potential for some really interesting squad play (that for once includes a platoon leader). I hope that these suggestions may spur a debate that will help push the game further and make it much more user friendly as it's currently missing some important features.

Comments?
 

Goten

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
432
230
0
Squad thing is for clans and tournaments.

If you force 5 leaders (1 commander + 4 squad leaders) on public servers, where people play ... how they play, than you have more chances people will ignore everyone.

Squad system should be scratched, especially respawning at SL thing.

I'm a Hero Commander and almost a Hero SL, so I played these classes quite a lot. Commander is 10x more "obeyed" than the SL ! And frankly I can understand that. Most people don't even know if they have a Squad Leader or who that guy is ! Listening to that SL is something I NEVER saw it worked ! If, as SL I would give an order, MAYBE one in my squad would listen. If I give an order as Commander ... let's just say many more will listen :)

SL should just be a guy with a SMG, 1 smoke and bragging rights. Also removing the (more) unrealistic spawn stupidity maybe SLs could put those SMGs to work and not hide so they can teleport squad members.

It's too complicated and confusing for public servers and even after the people learn some things about this they still 99% ignore the SLs.
 

LugNut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 12, 2011
2,288
117
0
Don't take this the wrong way but squad system? What squad system? I'm new to HOS, but not new to other realism FPS and generally not considered an idiot, but there's not much info now to indicate that you're even in a squad, or who your squadmates or squad leader is. When I'm able to spawn on a SL, I rarely even see them. I have no idea who is in my squad and I've yet to see any squad work together.

Pretty much the only orders I've seen people respond to are those issued over VOIP either by the commander or someone who's taking a commanding role.

I think your suggestions are good, I would also add that VOIP icons indicate commanders and SL's.

I only play on realism servers btw.
 

DingDong09

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2011
74
102
0
The squad system in this game is simply inaccessible, I have played this game for a while and I still don't get it. I still don't get when I can spawn on a SL - to be honest it seems like you only can when he's sitting in some hole where the enemy can't see him and he can't see the enemy, what a boring role that must be! All I can really tell is that squad mates are in green, that's about it.
 

zugumba

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 20, 2011
51
20
0
if they are to keep the spawning at SL thing they should do it like in BFBC2 focus the camera on the squad leader and have you respawn at him when you want to regardless if enemies are seeing it or not. it will be his fault if he respawn in a rain of bullets and die.
 

Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
3,300
1,667
0
Canadian in Australia
RO2 has some really effective infrastructure for the squad system currently implemented. Unfortunately, the game, whether it be in normal or "realism" mode currently obscures nearly all of that from the player. Unless the squad and platoon leaders have microphones, the only players currently aware of any assigned orders are the leaders themselves. This needs to be remedied in a bad way for the game to grow and be more accessible to the public.

Firstly, and most importantly, when the platoon leader issues orders to his squad leaders, this needs to show up for everyone in the squad assigned the order. Those of us that have been around RO for a while remember from the mod and Ostfront that there were team voice commands that would say to the entire team "Attack/defend objective X." This is currently missing from the game in the form of both a textual and audio cue. When an order is issued, it must be relayed via audio to the player as well as via text in the chat window. In addition to this, some of the information from the tactical view needs to be made available at all times regardless of pressing "T." Whatever your squad's current objective should be always displayed on your screen as they are currently only when pressing "T." Note that the icon should be scaled back to not be so large but to provide the player with the proper orientation.
Makes sense and I agree with much of what you say, however, having the icon on your screen the whole time could create some problems with obscuring your view of possible enemies on screen.

A better solution would be to bring up your Minimap in the bottom left of the screen and having only that objective in question displayed, so you know what you need to go for and what direction it is in.

This should also be adiquate for full Realism servers too, if all that is shown on the Minimap is your objective.

Tactical display will still show you all the objectives, but having this setup will better help players to know where they're supposed to go in regards to their squad, while not filling up their screen with icons.

Next, to differentiate between the two modes and hopefully encourage teams to stick together as squads two things need to happen. One, your squad mates should always have their names hovering above their heads. While the names aren't inherently realistic, they actually add to the total realism because in combat you tend to know who your buddies are.
Agreed.... unless they can setup the game so everybody has their own unique face, etc. you don't know who is who unless you have names over their heads, which does make sense in order to know who is who.

In regards to others on your team who are not in your squad, you don't really need names on them.

Secondly, while your map is currently updated with all information (e.g. artillery coordinates, recon aircraft information, etc.) this should only be available to players playing on normal servers. On "realism" servers, I suggest adding this information as an extension of the morale system whereby you gain morale by being near your squad leader. While you are near your squad leader (say, within 50m or whatever number you want), information is updated on your map as the squad leader gets it. So you'd know where artillery is coming in, where the recon plane found enemies, etc. However, if you wander off outside of the range of the leader, this information is no longer displayed.
Makes sense and I don't see any complications from this idea.

Finally, icons. With the system outlined above, you should have a small status icon (like that for cover) that displays whether or not you are within range of your leaders. This way you have a visual indication of where you are. Also, and quite importantly, both the player and the squad leader should have and icon or some sort of feedback telling the player if it is possible to spawn on the squad leader or not. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask in game if "TWI has fixed the squad leader spawn bug" yet.

The game has the potential for some really interesting squad play (that for once includes a platoon leader). I hope that these suggestions may spur a debate that will help push the game further and make it much more user friendly as it's currently missing some important features.

Comments?
One other idea I would add to make this work a bit more towards squad team work:

Change the text notification on screen to a different colour other than white and even possibly bold that text so it helps catch the player's eye more than the rest of the regular chat mumbo jumbo.

Green for Squad messages, Orange for Commander messages.

So when anybody, including your SL or Commander type something regularlly it will just be regular white text, but when it's a Team or Squad Message, it is either Green or Orange.

This would help for Commanders who are going to call arty on a specific location. I always send out three or so team messages to my team telling them when and where the arty will be hitting so they have full warning.... yet it seems sometimes a couple miss the messages (even if I typed it out three different times)

Having it in Orange Text would help players see the text and know it's important. It would also help squad leaders give out information that's easier to read compared to regular chatter.

Others in your squad could also have coloured text, perhaps in a lighter green colour, or green but not bold..... which could help others when it comes to them trying to inform their team about an MG or Marksman, or to tell your team that a specific area is clear for advancement.

Many of these ideas and the ones I mentioned should go a long way with improving team play.

Squad thing is for clans and tournaments.

If you force 5 leaders (1 commander + 4 squad leaders) on public servers, where people play ... how they play, than you have more chances people will ignore everyone.
It's not forcing anybody to do anything other than to be informed on what the rest of your team is doing. You can still go lone wolf, camp or run & gun all you want.

Squad system should be scratched, especially respawning at SL thing.

I'm a Hero Commander and almost a Hero SL, so I played these classes quite a lot. Commander is 10x more "obeyed" than the SL ! And frankly I can understand that. Most people don't even know if they have a Squad Leader or who that guy is ! Listening to that SL is something I NEVER saw it worked ! If, as SL I would give an order, MAYBE one in my squad would listen. If I give an order as Commander ... let's just say many more will listen :)
Agreed.... players do listen to the Commander more than the Squad Leader, but that has more to do with the lack of communication & team work currently in the game and that's what the OP is trying to improve upon.

I was Hero ranked as Commander nb4reset and trying to make my way back up now, and that's mostly because nobody often picks that class, which puts the team at a disadvantage and I feel obligated to pick the Commander if I want to have a better chance at winning.

SL should just be a guy with a SMG, 1 smoke and bragging rights.
Then why not just get rid of the class and just make him into yet another assault?

Also removing the (more) unrealistic spawn stupidity maybe SLs could put those SMGs to work and not hide so they can teleport squad members.
I know I don't hide as SL and I'm usually leading the charge, and I agree that the spawn on SL is not very realistic, but without it, the SL is about as useless as he was in RO1 and again, people will only pick the SL simply because it's another class with an SMG.

It's too complicated and confusing for public servers and even after the people learn some things about this they still 99% ignore the SLs.
You and I are on different pages then, as with the above, more people will see more communication and more team work, thus feel they stand a chance at accomplishing something more than just lone wolfing & getting random kill points. The above would make the team work more fluid and easier to grasp.

People still don't have to do what their SL orders them to do, nothing in the above forces anybody to do anything (There is no penalty for players to keep playing as they currently do) but it does give more incentive for players to play as a team. If it's easier for the player to see what's going on and if it makes it easier for players to communicate with one another, players will feel more secure in following their squad and taking objectives..... at least those players who want to, while every other player can continue to do what they currently do with no affect on their game.

I play on nothing but Pub servers, and I can see many benefits from this idea. Just because players are on a Pub server and not in a clan, that doesn't mean they don't want some level of functioning team work.

if they are to keep the spawning at SL thing they should do it like in BFBC2 focus the camera on the squad leader and have you respawn at him when you want to regardless if enemies are seeing it or not. it will be his fault if he respawn in a rain of bullets and die.
Makes sense and I agree. Having it so nobody can spawn on your SL unless nobody is looking at him basically means you never spawn on him, unless he's hiding somewhere doing nothing..... allowing people to spawn on the SL regardless of who sees him not only would reduce how many SL's camp/hide & do nothing, but also give the enemy more incentive to target the Squad Leader and take him out first because he's more of a threat.... ie: a more valued target.

To give enemies more incentive to take him out, there should also be a bonus of points to players who take out the SL within 5 seconds of the team's respawn, which prevented them from spawning on him and saving your team some extra grief of having to deal with a wave of enemies that just appeared.

Just an additional thought.
 
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Westernesse

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 11, 2011
406
68
0
If we want to focus on getting squads to stick together more for gameplay, then offer them more incentives to do so pick a few of the following:

1) Make squad assists worth +2 instead of +1 like normal assists.
2) +1 for killing someone near your squad mate.
3) +1 for revenge killing someone who killed your squad mate in the last 20 seconds.
4) +1 for being near a squad mate when he kills someone. I'm thinking you've got the rifleman guarding your MG's flank in a high risk environment like an objective your trying to cap. The MG will get most of the kills, but your watching his back so you get +1 per kill he gets.
5) Squad mate savior +1 for killing a guy who just wounded your squad mate.

The basic idea of all of these is to keep your squad together/get them to work together by offering them more points to do so. I'd also like to see a most effective squad award given to the squad with either the highest total points, most kills, or most objective caps (you cap an objective with 10 guys, 5 of which are you and 4 of your squad mates so your squad gets +5).
 
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Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
3,300
1,667
0
Canadian in Australia
If we want to focus on getting squads to stick together more for gameplay, then offer them more incentives to do so pick a few of the following:

1) Make squad assists worth +2 instead of +1 like normal assists.
2) +1 for killing someone near your squad mate.
3) +1 for revenge killing someone who killed your squad mate in the last 20 seconds.
4) +1 for being near a squad mate when he kills someone. I'm thinking you've got the rifleman guarding your MG's flank in a high risk environment like an objective your trying to cap. The MG will get most of the kills, but your watching his back so you get +1 per kill he gets.
5) Squad mate savior +1 for killing a guy who just wounded your squad mate.

The basic idea of all of these is to keep your squad together/get them to work together by offering them more points to do so. I'd also like to see a most effective squad award given to the squad with either the highest total points, most kills, or most objective caps (you cap an objective with 10 guys, 5 of which are you and 4 of your squad mates so your squad gets +5).
I think some of those are already in the game now, but I do like the idea of someone sticking by the MG and the idea of extra points for killing someone who wounded a team mate. You already get a kill assist point if you wounded an enemy and someone else killed him, I think it should work both ways in that regard.

As for extra points for covering an MG, it should be the same as how a driver in a tank gets points for a kill from the MG'er or Main Gunner..... you work as a team, therefore you are rewarded as such.
 

Goten

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
432
230
0
@Praxius

Wow, big post :)

Of course everbody plays how they like, but for the sake of teamplay people should receive orders just from one guy and that's the Commander.

The idea of the SLs as they are now was that they will improve teamplay. Maybe they do: on clans with very very good players. On a "normal" server they don't ... and I said why: people will listen to the Commander, people don't know that they have a SL, people don't know who the SL is, some orders from the SL conflict with orders from the Commander.

Yes, for me an SL should be just an assault with smoke.

I don't have a personal problem with the SL, I play SL and I ignore them when I play something else.


@Westernesse

+1 for running next to a squad mate
+1 for your squad mates not dying for 10 seconds
+2 for having all squad mates in a 100 square meters area
...


Really ... people get 10 points + x points (where x number of players in cap zone) for capping - that's 20+ or even 30+ points for capping and they still camp like crazy or run around like ******. You think giving them another 20 reasons to make 1 or 2 points will change something ? Take this example: how many people stay/run near a Commander to get the 1 or 2 points for "defending" him ? Answer: nobody ! You take that points if the Commander happened to be next to you when you shot someone, not because you're his bodyguard.
 
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Icey_Pain

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 8, 2011
706
304
0
I think we don't have a real good view on how the squad system works yet. The majority of the system is not even working...
If the commander or squad leader issues an order to you, such as "Attack B" you get prompted for a choice F4 for yes, F5 for no. Currently this doesn't even work, pressing F4 or F5 does nothing so we can't really see how following orders will be visualised.
 

Kommando_Nob

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 11, 2011
25
1
0
I had this discussion with a friend of mine who exlusively plays squad leader. Things we would love to see added to the squadleaders.

1. Indicator if you are a viable respawn point or not
2. Countdown to next spawn (for squadleader), so the SL can find a respawn point
3. Clear indicator of the attackpoint/defend point the squad leader has set.
4. If you can not spawn at SL, you spawn at the SL last selected spawnpoint
5. A clear indication on VoIP for squad that your SL is talking.
 

Gudenrath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2011
2,135
313
0
I had this discussion with a friend of mine who exlusively plays squad leader. Things we would love to see added to the squadleaders.

1. Indicator if you are a viable respawn point or not
2. Countdown to next spawn (for squadleader), so the SL can find a respawn point
3. Clear indicator of the attackpoint/defend point the squad leader has set.
4. If you can not spawn at SL, you spawn at the SL last selected spawnpoint
5. A clear indication on VoIP for squad that your SL is talking.
The problem with the first one (and the OPs last suggestion, which is similar) is that, like how peripheral vision is currently, it would function sort of like a wall hack, since it would reveal to the SL when he has been spotted by an enemy.
 

nuNce

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 25, 2011
110
44
0
The problem with the first one (and the OPs last suggestion, which is similar) is that, like how peripheral vision is currently, it would function sort of like a wall hack, since it would reveal to the SL when he has been spotted by an enemy.
That's why it should just let spawn anyway, I don't see where's the problem with that. For me the most needed things atm for squad and team leaders are basically onscreen info on who's your SL for the regular player and where is he (this last one on the T screen) and a movement order icon ALWAYS onscreen, maybe in the lower or upper part.

Also, the VOIP chat by default should be to your squad mates only instead of the whole team. On the other hand the commander should be able to speak to everyone.

I totally agree with the need of icons over your squad mates names, this would be a HUGE help to teamplay. And it wouldn't break the realism, not more than the game already did.
 
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zugumba

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 20, 2011
51
20
0
That's why it should just let spawn anyway, I don't see where's the problem with that. For me the most needed things atm for squad and team leaders are basically onscreen info on who's your SL for the regular player and where is he (this last one on the T screen) and a movement order icon ALWAYS onscreen, maybe in the lower or upper part.

Also, the VOIP chat by default should be to your squad mates only instead of the whole team. On the other hand the commander should be able to speak to everyone.

I totally agree with the need of icons over your squad mates names, this would be a HUGE help to teamplay. And it wouldn't break the realism, not more than the game already did.
exactly. theres no problem in spawning on the squad leader. if you spawn and die its your fault. happens a lot in BF and its not a big deal. people get better at it with time. but the spawn should be literally on him so you know exactly where you are going to appear and also the squad leader will see that his squad is spawning on him and maybe he will be inclined to coordinate.

it also has the potential to make squad leaders more aggressive. they can manage to get in a cap zone and tell his squad to spawn on him and help cap the objective.
 
Last edited:
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TrOOper

Active member
Jul 19, 2006
542
74
28
your moms house!
If this game had the same squad system as in BF2, it would be perfect..The squad leader should have the ability to mark what he wants on the mini map for people to follow so it wont obscure anything in your view. Also, when looking at the mini map, it would be nice to have your position indicator in a color that pops out at you...currently its hard to find quickly.....loving the game overall.....
 

ComeAndSee

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 1, 2011
149
37
0
Squad system is broken for a number of reasons.

1. You shouldn't have to "confirm" orders, you do what you're told.
2. F4 accept key doesn't work either way.
3. Spawn on Squad leader doesn't work 95% of the time.
4. Lack of a usable GUI to see who's in your squad.
5. Lack of in-game reprensation of what you're actually supposed to do. Squad leader says "attack this", but where do you meet up? etc.
6. Lack of a reward for actually following your orders.
 

Gudenrath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2011
2,135
313
0
That's why it should just let spawn anyway, I don't see where's the problem with that. For me the most needed things atm for squad and team leaders are basically onscreen info on who's your SL for the regular player and where is he (this last one on the T screen) and a movement order icon ALWAYS onscreen, maybe in the lower or upper part.

Also, the VOIP chat by default should be to your squad mates only instead of the whole team. On the other hand the commander should be able to speak to everyone.

I totally agree with the need of icons over your squad mates names, this would be a HUGE help to teamplay. And it wouldn't break the realism, not more than the game already did.
exactly. theres no problem in spawning on the squad leader. if you spawn and die its your fault. happens a lot in BF and its not a big deal. people get better at it with time. but the spawn should be literally on him so you know exactly where you are going to appear and also the squad leader will see that his squad is spawning on him and maybe he will be inclined to coordinate.

it also has the potential to make squad leaders more aggressive. they can manage to get in a cap zone and tell his squad to spawn on him and help cap the objective.
I agree. There seems to be no valid reason for disallowing team members to spawn on squad leader regardless of the SLs position. It already works kind of like that in FF. The fact that you can't spawn on him either when he is in enemy held objective is actually quite detrimental to SLs going for objectives. If both the commander and the SLs feel they should hang back, the attacking team will never capture anything. It is difficult as it is to persuade most players to stop camping and move forward.
 

Lonestarranger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2011
84
33
0
Squad Command

Squad Command

I have been playing squad leader for a few weeks to learn the system. Some times i think i am having some luck and folks are following, but it may just be my imagination.

The SL commands are great to use. YOu can really get into bounding fire teams. But the problem is not sure any squad members really get the commands. Because as a squad member, i never have had anyone use the Squad F commands or if they did, i was never cued. If i designate a postion for rifle tm 1, rifle tm 2, etc. with the F command, it shows up on my map, but does not show up on the tactical view. Not sure if those positions show up on the team members maps or if they even know they were given a command. And i am not sure if anything shows up on my squad member's computer. Having a verbal piece of text show up, if it does, is not helpful because most folks are fighting and not fully paying attention to text being typed.

The SL system has potential, and even on public server. Most members will follow orders if they make sense and helping to win the game. But, again, i am not certain as to what squad members recieve when the SL uses the F commands or the general command wheel.

Again, sometimes it seems like i do have my squad following me with the F commands. But am just not sure because i do not know what information they are getting when i command them and in what form.

Would love to get on a server and just do an experiment. Or would be nice for Tripwire to explain the current state of the command system so we could suggest improvements.

Bottom line, do not discard the squad leader command system and just have a platoon leader. Improve it because it can really allow us to operate as a platoon. For instance, before the game begins and everyone is waiting stationary, should allow the commander and SL to issue the initial commands. Color code the names to be different depending on what squad you are in. And make everyone pick a squad to play versus making it a choice. Or at least let the server make this call to make it mandatory that y ou have to pick your squad and weapon, versus pick just a weapon view.

PS - every time i have tried to play as commander, i never have the arty buttons light up. What is the trick or do they just turn on randomly based on the map being played?
 
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Luckless

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 28, 2011
250
97
0
4. Lack of a usable GUI to see who's in your squad.
Ah, spawn screen, there is a button to change roles. Click that, click "Join a Squad",... Surprise! The entire team, listed out by name, squad, and role,... How this isn't usable, I'm not sure.

You can also use squad VOIP, and talk with each other.
 

Gudenrath

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 23, 2011
2,135
313
0
Ah, spawn screen, there is a button to change roles. Click that, click "Join a Squad",... Surprise! The entire team, listed out by name, squad, and role,... How this isn't usable, I'm not sure.

You can also use squad VOIP, and talk with each other.
It should be clearly represented in the TAB-list who was in your squad and which role they play (ie player roles should be mentioned just like in RO1). Having to go into the role change screen to learn this is not very practical.