Hey, if we're talking here about history and WWII We should remind the most important moment, the outbreak.
70th anniversary of the outbreak of the WWII
- Thread starter Apos
- Start date
huge nitpic
that picture that states its Warsaw 1939 shows a T34
i would suspect that a organisation could do proper research on their pictures
anyways, lets remember dead, wounded and those who lost their family
i hope something like that will NEVER happen again!
that picture that states its Warsaw 1939 shows a T34
i would suspect that a organisation could do proper research on their pictures
anyways, lets remember dead, wounded and those who lost their family
i hope something like that will NEVER happen again!
I'd like to use this post to rant abit.
I read leaders in Europe have argued "Who is to blame for WWII?" Wtf, who can be blamed for WWII? Swaziland? The Republic of Palau?
Jeez
Also, whats up with this "new" revisionist history I start seeing everywhere- portraying the Wermacht as awesome and cool, while saying _ONLY_ the SS participated in atrocities. I am terrified with the "new age" history where it becomes a matter of opinion and not a matter of facts.
I read leaders in Europe have argued "Who is to blame for WWII?" Wtf, who can be blamed for WWII? Swaziland? The Republic of Palau?
Jeez
Also, whats up with this "new" revisionist history I start seeing everywhere- portraying the Wermacht as awesome and cool, while saying _ONLY_ the SS participated in atrocities. I am terrified with the "new age" history where it becomes a matter of opinion and not a matter of facts.
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Did you read it in the *Jerusalem Post*?
I think we all can agree that both the SS and regular Wehrmacht did awful things during the war. As well as the Red Army, and most likely the armies of other powers committed atrocities as well... and yes - the Allies included. Alas, such is war.
The whole point of an anniversary is to remember and honor all those who fought and those who died, all the soldiers and millions of innocent civilans, not quarrel about who is to 'blame'. Remember it so it wont happen ever again, the only cure is to remember and tell each new generation about it.
I think we all can agree that both the SS and regular Wehrmacht did awful things during the war. As well as the Red Army, and most likely the armies of other powers committed atrocities as well... and yes - the Allies included. Alas, such is war.
The whole point of an anniversary is to remember and honor all those who fought and those who died, all the soldiers and millions of innocent civilans, not quarrel about who is to 'blame'. Remember it so it wont happen ever again, the only cure is to remember and tell each new generation about it.
Shadrach- I'm very offended by the fact that you think that because im Israeli, I base my "facts" on "propoganda".
If you are going to be disrespectful to what other people say, keep it yourself.
The "argument" I was refering too between the leaders is on headlines in most main news sources I know (BBC, CNN, etc..)
If you are going to be disrespectful to what other people say, keep it yourself.
The "argument" I was refering too between the leaders is on headlines in most main news sources I know (BBC, CNN, etc..)
I just skimmed throught the last 24 h of news on CNN.com and didn't see anything along those lines from anybody. The only real "argument" is that on Russian's role during occupation of Poland.
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Klaus- I never intended it to be an insult to you because of your nationality, it just sounded like what "some" Israeli newspapers tend to write.
Since I offended you I apologize - I know you're one of the good guys Klaus.
Since I offended you I apologize - I know you're one of the good guys Klaus.
I think its a shame that the Russian media and even government agencies have been drumming up anti-Polish resentment (suggesting that Poles were the first and foremost allies of Hitler; going as far as suggesting that the Polish Foreign Minister was a German spy) in a bid to make a smoke screen covering the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact.
Not that it proved to be a strenuous excercise - over 60% are said to think that the pact was a strategic (and quite Machiavellian, I should say) move intended to buy time for the SU to prepare for casting Hitler down.
That, that is a shame, that the Russian national ethos still stays true to the maxim "might makes right" (everyone keeps repeating - "we did win the war in the end, and that's the only thing that matters").
Cheers.
The history of Poland is important to me, for several reasons.
My great-grandfather was an academic in Krakow, he was killed in Auschwitz. At the start of the war the nazis sent many would-be dissenters to the camp for 'political' prisoners.
My grandmother as a little girl fled with her family from Lvov, when the russians invaded. If they had not fled, they would now be Ukrainians and I would not be... strange to think about ...
It is strange that the russians are so hesitant to admit and denounce the actions of the former Soviet state, why they can't come clean on this is troubling. But I see Putin in a speech today said:
"We must admit these mistakes. Our country has done this."
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8232559.stm)
Which at least shows them softening the stance, about bloody time I say.
My great-grandfather was an academic in Krakow, he was killed in Auschwitz. At the start of the war the nazis sent many would-be dissenters to the camp for 'political' prisoners.
My grandmother as a little girl fled with her family from Lvov, when the russians invaded. If they had not fled, they would now be Ukrainians and I would not be... strange to think about ...
It is strange that the russians are so hesitant to admit and denounce the actions of the former Soviet state, why they can't come clean on this is troubling. But I see Putin in a speech today said:
"We must admit these mistakes. Our country has done this."
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8232559.stm)
Which at least shows them softening the stance, about bloody time I say.
Shadrach - Apology accepted, I really REALLY dont want to get into this so please dont reply on this subject but J. Post is considered very very right wing here and I would never quote anything from a paper with such a blunt political agenda.
However I would like to reply to other statement you mentions -
You said - "As well as the Red Army, and most likely the armies of other powers committed atrocities as well... and yes - the Allies included. Alas, such is war.
The whole point of an anniversary is to remember and honor all those who fought and those who died, all the soldiers and millions of innocent civilans, not quarrel about who is to 'blame'. Remember it so it wont happen ever again, the only cure is to remember and tell each new generation about it. "
I agree and dont agree with this statement. While everyone is to blame for WWII in my opinion, the blame is different and varies between each nation. I, personally, for example blame the Americans and the British for knowing about the death camps and not doing anything for stopping them (Like for example dropping a single bomb on Aushwitz). Or the bombing of Dresden.
I also blame many European nations and people who openly commited atrocities against other minorities, and commited them with enthusiasm, with not a single German in the far sight.
However, I do blame the Germans _SOLELY_ for starting the worse crime in history. While, true, the Russians have killed far more then the Nazis did - It was the Germans who turned murder into an industry.
I dont in anyway, hate the Germans nowdays. I have been to Germany and I absolutly love the country.
Also my original argument was regarding the German armed forces specifily - I am wondering to why people think the Wermacht was great and honorable while it is said "only the SS" commited crimes. This is not from any paper but from conversations and impressions i got with various people.
However I would like to reply to other statement you mentions -
You said - "As well as the Red Army, and most likely the armies of other powers committed atrocities as well... and yes - the Allies included. Alas, such is war.
The whole point of an anniversary is to remember and honor all those who fought and those who died, all the soldiers and millions of innocent civilans, not quarrel about who is to 'blame'. Remember it so it wont happen ever again, the only cure is to remember and tell each new generation about it. "
I agree and dont agree with this statement. While everyone is to blame for WWII in my opinion, the blame is different and varies between each nation. I, personally, for example blame the Americans and the British for knowing about the death camps and not doing anything for stopping them (Like for example dropping a single bomb on Aushwitz). Or the bombing of Dresden.
I also blame many European nations and people who openly commited atrocities against other minorities, and commited them with enthusiasm, with not a single German in the far sight.
However, I do blame the Germans _SOLELY_ for starting the worse crime in history. While, true, the Russians have killed far more then the Nazis did - It was the Germans who turned murder into an industry.
I dont in anyway, hate the Germans nowdays. I have been to Germany and I absolutly love the country.
Also my original argument was regarding the German armed forces specifily - I am wondering to why people think the Wermacht was great and honorable while it is said "only the SS" commited crimes. This is not from any paper but from conversations and impressions i got with various people.
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Well here's my take on it, it's just my personal opinion. When the holocaust and atrocities on the Russian front came to public attention in the 50s and 60s, every Wehrmacht soldier became an instant monster in the world'seye. The pendulum just swung that way. Understandable? Probably. Entirely reasonable? Maybe not so much.
So when a pendulum swings one way, it's sooner going to swing the other way: People learn about soldiers who did not commit war crimes. Mistakes in old scholarship are discovered (such as the embarassing mistakes in the German "Crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition", which showed photos of crimes commited by Soviet troops). Also, they start to learn about crimes commited by other armies, which before were simply swept under the rug. So they start to question the old black and white stories and in the process, there's a danger to feel a little too much empathy for the poor old Wehrmacht. The pendulum swings too far.
It's all good though, sooner or later, maybe in another 70 years we'll be able to look at this war the way we should.
So when a pendulum swings one way, it's sooner going to swing the other way: People learn about soldiers who did not commit war crimes. Mistakes in old scholarship are discovered (such as the embarassing mistakes in the German "Crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition", which showed photos of crimes commited by Soviet troops). Also, they start to learn about crimes commited by other armies, which before were simply swept under the rug. So they start to question the old black and white stories and in the process, there's a danger to feel a little too much empathy for the poor old Wehrmacht. The pendulum swings too far.
It's all good though, sooner or later, maybe in another 70 years we'll be able to look at this war the way we should.
I'm quite annoyed with most of the coverage of this event in mainstream media. It's poorly researched and shallow.
As has been said previously in this thread - the anniversary should be an oppertunity to remember those who served, and those who died. Whether they were civilian or soldier, axis or allies. Constantly looking for who to blame is as foolish as blaming all the deaths of the First World War on Gavrilo Princip.
As has been said previously in this thread - the anniversary should be an oppertunity to remember those who served, and those who died. Whether they were civilian or soldier, axis or allies. Constantly looking for who to blame is as foolish as blaming all the deaths of the First World War on Gavrilo Princip.
i personally am sicken tired from all those holocaust stuff running on tv on dates like that
1 rough documentation about WW2 at first followed by one about the civilians and then topped by 25 documentations about the holocaust
yes its BAD, yes it was worse than that, we all KNOW!
kids get hammered with that in school for allmost the entire time they should be talking about WHY it happened ect (in my country at last)
1 rough documentation about WW2 at first followed by one about the civilians and then topped by 25 documentations about the holocaust
yes its BAD, yes it was worse than that, we all KNOW!
kids get hammered with that in school for allmost the entire time they should be talking about WHY it happened ect (in my country at last)
I was hoping someone would bring that up just so that I wouldn't receive any possible outrage. But yes, I agree. The history of World War II is overshadowed by the Holocaust, especially on television and in newspapers.
Whenever I read about WWII from a mainstream source, there's always a couple of lines about the actual war, and the rest is about the Holocaust. It's almost as if it's a crime not to mention the Holocaust if you're going to talk about World War II. And for some reason there's no mention of the other millions who died as a result of it. Sometimes I believe that if there weren't things such as Wikipedia, the average person would not know anything about the actual war.
Whenever I read about WWII from a mainstream source, there's always a couple of lines about the actual war, and the rest is about the Holocaust. It's almost as if it's a crime not to mention the Holocaust if you're going to talk about World War II. And for some reason there's no mention of the other millions who died as a result of it. Sometimes I believe that if there weren't things such as Wikipedia, the average person would not know anything about the actual war.
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For me, what I take from WWII and the holocaust is not "oh no the poor victims" but rather proof to that everyone can become murderers.