• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/
  • Weve updated the Tripwire Privacy Notice under our Policies to be clearer about our use of customer information to come in line with the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) rules that come into force today (25th May 2018). The following are highlights of our changes:


    We've incorporated the relevant concepts from the GDPR including joining the EU and Swiss Privacy Shield framework. We've added explanations for why and how Tripwire processes customer data and the types of data that we process, as well as information about your data protection rights.



    For more information about our privacy practices, please review the new Privacy Policy found here: https://tripwireinteractive.com/#/privacy-notice

25 July 2013: Updated Forum Rules - PLEASE READ

[TW]Wilsonam

VP, Tripwire Int.
Oct 17, 2005
4,061
2,618
0
60
Roswell, GA
www.tripwireinteractive.com
I do not think it as matter of symbols, rather it is a matter of law. In some countries, everything used by Nazis and/or Communists is illegal.

A forum, even a forum about historical video games, can be seen as "exposing" people to illegal/hate-promoting content. and some people might even think that these ideologies are promoted... Go figure...
Unfortunately many people believe that a symbol is "evil". For me there are only good and evil deeds.
Yeah, believe it or not, back in the mod days, a German media outlet got a visit from the Polizei for carrying a screenshot (or something - I don't remember the exact details) from the mod that contained some Nazi symbol.
 

Murphy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
7,071
743
0
32
liandri.darkbb.com
Interestingly, nazi symbols are fine in movies, non-fiction or fiction - because that's art! Not videogames though, lol.
Odd, but the law is the law...


(I'm just glad everyone got that "don't attack people" private message and not just me! I was worried for a second that some smarmy, sarcastic comment of mine really ticked someone off. :D)
 

Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,025
1,037
0
77
Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
A little about the Swastika;

The swastika was/is employed by various American Indian tribes, notably the Navajo Tribes, for whom it was a sort of good luck sign. I recall once seeing a picture of the young Jackie Kennedy (then Bouvier) wearing a costume decorated with swastikas for a Native American pageant. At any rate, swastikas were a common motif in American building decoration up until around 1930.

The swastika didn't originate with Native Americans. The symbol was widespread throughout the ancient world, particularly in India, where it remains in common use by Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists. Originally it probably symbolized the sun circling through the sky, although many other explanations have also been offered. Up until the 20th century, its significance was generally benign.

In the 1870s the swastika was popularized by the German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann, who found many examples of it during his diggings at ancient Troy and Mycenae. Schliemann was fascinated by the swastika and publicized it in his books, referring to it as an Aryan religious symbol.

Schliemann himself wasn't a racist, but the swastika was soon taken up by less principled writers, who were attracted by the Aryan connection as well as by the symbol's strangely compelling appearance. Hitler may have been introduced to it through the work of the fanatical Aryan supremacist Jorg Lanz von Liebenfels, who used the swastika as the symbol of his cult as early as 1907.

Many anti-Semitic and militarist groups had adopted it as well by the time Hitler appropriated it for the Nazis around 1920. Even he was a bit surprised by the impact it had on people; it's undoubtedly one of the most effective political symbols ever devised.

For today's "modern sociological permissiveness", the swastika is certainly becoming more acceptable and less offensive in many areas of the world. In fact, it usage as a decorative symbol is widespread throughout the mideast countries and in particular, Afghanistan. (Take notice of the ceiling to wall border decor in Karzai's offices and official halls)
 

Spartan1388

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 17, 2013
468
0
0
Movies can be banned, but as far as i know, this is usually because the deem that illegal ideas and ideologies might be promoted, like with the Star Trek episode "Patterns of Force", in which the Nazi regime was described as "efficient".
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(episode)


But video games are the "root of all evil".
No one cares that millions play video games but have not harm any human or animal, but if a heavily mentally ill person harm a human or animal and that person had payed video games, everyone looses their mind...


The Swastika is indeed an ancient symbol that can be found all around the world. The great majority of Nazi/Fascist symbols are old symbols that where adopted, they did not invented them.

But, in some countries, and the number will increase, these symbols are illegal along with the ideologies, theories like Holocaust Denial, and any action to promote them. (Yes, the "Though Police" is already here.)
Even the Celtic Cross is illegal, which is a Celtic and later Christian Symbol...


The alternative would be that a separate forum would be created for the Germans, French, Austrians, etc, and IPs from these countries will be denied access to this forum. But this would require Admins who can speak these languages, and the players from these countries would not be able to voice their opinions and ideas equally.

Now, this forum is about video games. That means that you should not use it to voice your ideology, preach your faith or do anything other giving feedback about games, suggesting ideas, discussing modding, find support and everything else game related, so it is not a violation of Free Speech.
Basically things like the First Amendment from the Bill of Rights of the U.S Constitution, protect you from the Government. You cannot visit someone's house, say something that offends him and then plead the First.

Although this will cause inconvenience in the discussions about WWII video games, and this should be the main concern.

(Personally i favor censored versions of video games, like Iron Cross flag instead of Swastika flag, for countries where these symbols are illegal, and a version with the actual real symbols for the countries that have no law against them.)
 

Temporary

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 26, 2010
211
30
0
Europe, France, Normandy
just my 2 cents:

+1 regarding the freedom of speech contained in laws/constitutions being limited to the governments/states only.

There is no unlimited freedom of speech here, pretending it is the case, or asking for such a thing, is just trolling the administrators and moderators, to not lose face when the banhammer will inevitably fall down.

-

Regarding the symbols, this place is the Tripwire Interactive forums, not a generic forum.

Since TWI is mostly known for the Red Orchestra series (and Killing Floor), its members and visitors are very likely interested in WW2, the threads and discussions are mostly about a WW2 game or WW2 history.

So having a swastika as a profile picture is not just "it's an ancient world symbol from India", it is:
- very likely it's representing the Third Reich and/or the National-Socialism movement for you (nb: that doesn't mean you're a nazi or a supporter of the 3rd Reich)
- extremely likely it will represent the 3rd Reich and/or the National-Socialism movement for other users.

It is the context of the TWI forum that makes some symbols/names forbidden, not the symbols/names themselves (with the exception of few legal restrictions).
 

Nestor Makhno

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 25, 2006
5,758
1,118
0
54
Penryn, Cornwall
So having a swastika as a profile picture is not just "it's an ancient world symbol from India", it is:
- very likely it's representing the Third Reich and/or the National-Socialism movement for you (nb: that doesn't mean you're a nazi or a supporter of the 3rd Reich)
- extremely likely it will represent the 3rd Reich and/or the National-Socialism movement for other users.

It is the context of the TWI forum that makes some symbols/names forbidden
This person talks sense.
 
Last edited:

Spartan1388

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 17, 2013
468
0
0
Yes, it makes sense.

But,

1) There is no Third Reich or N.S.D.A.P anymore, so you cannot "support" something that does not exist.

2) Supporting the National Socialist ideology is not illegal on every country. That means that there are "Nazi" parties and some people join them. Same with the Communist parties and even with Stalinist-Communist Parties. You do not have to sympathize them or like them, but they have the right to believe in whatever they want, and if you have the same right, you know that the price is that you have to tolerate those who you don't like, but this right is worth the price.

Personally i like freedom and i like these rights. Having grown up in a country with an unofficial "Though Police", i can understand the value of these rights, but here we should think deeper.

3)This is an International gaming forum. Politics stay out, Religion stays out, Pets stay out, and anything not game-related should stay out.

Having an avatar or nickname that can be considered as political/religious propaganda harms the community and that harms the company that made the games we like.

If you are Hindu, this is not the place to preach your beliefs or publicly display your "religious pride" by having a religious symbol as avatar.

To put this straight. Here you are a gamer/costumer visitor.
Anything you are to real life, you should keep it for yourself. This is not the place to talk/brag/preach about it and no one really cares.
It is like visiting TWI's home. You should only speak about gaming. You are in their house and they have their rules.

Freedom of speech is to protect you from Government and Government Agencies. To put this straight with an example, if you ring a house doorbell and ask to preach, they might ask you to leave. In that case you should leave, but you have the right to preach on anyone willing to hear.


4) Because TWI is mostly known for the Red Orchestra series which is a WWII game, this will cause an inconvenience and this is my concern.

I mean, say that they have done a mistake and i should upload a reference picture to show them how the correct should be, but if i do i brake the Forum Rules so i cannot tell them that they made a mistake because i am not allowed to back my words with evidence...

In Germany, they should have rules that allow to use historical photographs or flags, posters, insignia, etc as reference. They have museums, don't they? They watch WWII movies, don't they? They have model builders, don't they? They make WWII films and allow filming in Germany, don't they?
They have reference books, don't they?

So, maybe adopting these rules?
 

zarathustra

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 2, 2010
14
0
0
Nr. Stonehenge
zombo.com
For example you can take the Svastika which was used by Nazi party during the WWII but the fact is that Svastika is also a religious symbol of indouism that you could found many century before the WWII and represent the God ganesh or some ideas like the eternity.
'indouism' = 'Hinduism'?

I always thought that the Third Reich reversed the direction of the original (Hindu) swastika - in line with their occult leanings; my misapprehension, perhaps?

Also:
Q - What's a Hindu?
A - Lay eggs!

BA-DUM TISH!
(I'm here all week, folks. Please tip your waitresses...)
 

Spartan1388

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 17, 2013
468
0
0
Both Clockwise and the Counter-Clockwise swastikas exist since thousand of years ago.

Both can be found on Ancient Greek antiquities.

I am not sure if i can post pics, so Google "ancient Greek swastika".

Hitler copied the symbol from books and/or antiquities he had seen on museums, but many erroneously believe that he actually invented it...

Information about Hindus and Swastikas can be found here, as well as info about ancient Greece and also use by Nazis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
It is from Wikipedia so i guess it is alright to post, if no, please remove.


Note that no matter what we say here, laws in Europe won't change, specially now that Far Right Wing parties are on the rise.
 

Murphy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
7,071
743
0
32
liandri.darkbb.com
Everyone knows the swastika is older than the Nazis - but they ruined it. I'm sorry!

Just like Hitler's mustache, which was common fashion back then. It was a compromise between having a mustache at all and conforming to maximum widths the army allowed for beards. Loads of people had similar mustaches prior to ww2 and I assume many might like one like it now - but guess what, it would make them look like Hitler so they don't do it!

Or the first name Adolf! Much older than Hitler. Objectively, kind of adorable - but it's ruined now.

And let's be reasonable for a second here: No one here needs to display a swastika because he's a member of some ancient sun cult..:rolleyes:
 

Spartan1388

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 17, 2013
468
0
0
The logic that everything that was used by the Nazis is stigmatized, makes as much sense, as banning Charlie Chaplin movies because he had a similar mustache with Adolf Hitler.

But, if some Governments do exactly that, then people from these countries should be accommodated.


What i am saying, is that how you say your rules, makes a big difference.

For example, my Country has many Stalinist-Communists. If they see rules prohibiting Stalinism by name, they will Boycott the game.
Same goes with Communists in general and Nationals-Socialists as well as some far-right-wingers.

These people are attracted to WWII games, and many of them come from countries where they can believe whatever they like, or what they believe is legal to believe, so i deem that friendly prohibitions are better for public relations.

That means prohibition of all political and religious discussions in general, as well as the use of symbols associated with them, some with is the same as:
No one here needs to display a swastika because he's a member of some ancient sun cult.


It would also be nice to have a definition of "Racism".

I guess they use it with the U.S definition that more or less means "Hating a Race without reason and/or holding a whole race accountable for actions of individuals and/or promoting and spreading this hate and beliefs."
I guess it is this, and i totally agree, and most people will agree, but i deem that this part of the rules is written in hostile tone, and that part needs attention, because "racism" has different definitions in different countries.

In the E.U, "Racist" is a very big umbrella term, used for every single discrimination and difference between people.

The definition of racism from one of the best Neo-Greek dictionaries is, as better as i can translate:"Every belief, idea or ideology, that is based in the belief of the superiority of one group of people over another".
You see?
If you come in Greece and say for example that "Blonds are the most beautifully", you are racist...
 

Spartan1388

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 17, 2013
468
0
0
So,
things that where used by the Nazi Party, are not somehow "stigmatized", unless in the mind of the "stigma-minded".
All the material things that Nazis used are neutral. Neither "good" or "evil".

Let us examine.


Although clothing and gear are not that important, many peoples think about them as "nazi"-things. This is erroneous.

The Stahlhelm is a great helmet design. Some countries still use them in ceremonial uniforms and other countries had "Nazi"-made Stalhelms in active service for years after WWII. The U.S produced and issued the "Fritz" helmets which was replaced by newer, lighter designs. Many countries are buying Fritz Helmet today to replace their old steel helmets.

The cavalry boots the Nazis used are also used on many countries around the world. Same for the Sam Browne belts. U.K and U.S.A use them. This included citizens as well as Law Enforcement and Military.

The "Nazi"-hats (M43 Field Cap) are still used in Germany.
Hats similar to those German Officers are used all around the world and i think in every NATO country.


But all the above things are insignificant. Let us examine the symbols.

The symbol of the Eagle originates from Ancient Roman Empire. Hitler "inherited" it from the Holy Roman Empire.
Many countries today use the symbol of the Eagle, like the U.S.A, Russia and dozens of other countries.
The U.S.A uses eagles in Seals and Flagpoles as well as insignia.
The one-headed eagle the U.S.A uses bears a greater similarity to the Eagle used in Roman Empire and Nazi Germany.

Although Hitler's mustache was distinctive, Charlie Chaplin used it and made it popular years before Hitler, and this design existed for years before. It was not invented by Hitler, but there is the possibility that Hitler copied from Chaplin.

The Nazis used per-existing symbols. The Swastika is an ancient symbol, the Runes are ancient symbols and most of their symbols where borrowed, not made by them.
The Swastika is the main symbol of Nazism, and most of European did not knew it before Hitler introduced it, but this does not cancel 2.000 years of history.

Nazis also used gas chambers.
Gas chambers are used today as mean of administering capital punishment and for putting to death unwanted animals. Even the term is not taboo. It is used in mechanics.


So, it is not what Nazis where wearing, what they are eating, or what symbols the where using.
What counts is what they did.


N.S.D.A.P rules from 1933 to 1945.
In this time Nazis where involved n everything from sports to automobiles and from highways to television and cinema.

Goebbels made movies. Should we consider cinemas as Nazi Indoctrination Service?

Nazi Germany Hosted the 1936 Olympics, and for the first time the brought a flame from Ancient Olympia. Should the Olympic flame be considered a Nazi ceremony? Or the Olympic Games themselves are a Nazi glorification?

Nazis touched everything. If we try not to touch anything touched by Nazis, we will find out that we cannot even die, because Nazis did so.

So,
enough with the guilt and blaming of inanimate objects and symbols.
We should learn from the great tragedy of WWII and start to respect and appreciate life and condemn the actions and those who harm innocent people, and not sacrifice to them things they didn't own at the first place.