Sharpshooter Revised Concept.

[Sammers]

This will hopefully not get insta-locked or turn into a flame war or anything like that. I too, would normally shudder to read these sharpie threads and I was considering not suggesting it. Couple people said it's a post-worthy idea though and I figured nothing too bad could come of it.

This wont really solve the Sharpie being overpowered, that will require individual weapon tweaking and such. This idea covers the perk as a whole. Also, I know it'll be a lot of work probably and a pain in the *** to test, but it's only a suggestion anyway. Feel free to disagree. Also, read it all if you're going to comment. After reading steps one and two, I imagine it would be quite offputting. I got the idea from people suggesting nerfs because other perks were too good with the SS weapons(and many presumed it was because of the Headshot multipliers).

Step One: Remove Sharpshooter Headshot damage bonus; The sharpshooter does regular headshot damage. The normal damage boost is still there to add power though.

Step Two: Nerf SS weapons' headshot multipliers; all SS weapons have headhost multipliers that are balanced for non-sharpshooter. This means TWI can lower the Xbow damage so that it's not stupidly good for Zerkers and Medics. Like I said, it'd take bloody ages to test it. I'm not saying make them useless, just what you'd want them to be for other perks.

Step Three: Add headshot multiplier bonus to Sharpshooter Perk. This is the golden step. The Headhsot multipliers for Sharpie weapons only increases to high power when in the hands of Sharpies. It bring all of these weapons headshot damage up to scratch for Sharpshooter, while guaranteeing the other perks wont headshot anywhere near as effectively.

Yeah, it only really solves the Xbow(and M14?) being overpowered in the hands of other perks and is a lot of effort to do so, but I figured I suggest it anyway.

 

[Nekomancer]

Well, that sounds like a good start. Kinda like the Mac10 which only shines in the hands of a Firebug.

 

[General Armchair]

I'd prefer it if sharps didn't receive any damage boost at all for their perk weapons, but get awesome headshot damage bonuses. Doubly awesome for perk weapon headshots.

Perhaps make an exception and provide a perk damage boost for pistols, since dual pistols aren't particularly precise and fulfill a significantly different role than the xbow or LAR.

Certainly no perk damage boost for M14, just headshot multipliers. Nobody likes m14 spam.



If sharpshooters only get a boost for their headshots, then players need to be good shots to be good with the sharpshooter class.

 

[Vaecrius]

I'd rather keep the distinctiveness of the weapon behaviour myself, since I do play outside the whitelist.

Although a mod that makes all the perk advantages and requirements virtually weapon-independent (except of course for demo, berserk and firebug) would be interesting.

 

[Braiken]

I'd rather take away the basic damage boost from SS and let the headshoot bonus stay making the SS players focus on headshooting not mindless M14 spamming (this is for step one). With the rest I agree

 

[bstm300]

Way too much complaining on here

Way too much complaining on here

First of all, think about what you all just said for a bit, and then, think about how the game-play has changed with the new update. Now that you've done that, let's consider that the M14 has been reduced from 14 clips to 7. Remember, too, that each difficulty level has been raised; meaning, hard is like the old suicide, etc. I'll also bring my post-update experience into consideration here. I and a friend of mine (both KF veterans-been playing since it's release) played as sharpshooters for a good hour and a half yesterday, and I have to say that I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode with only 7 clips while shooting my M14 conservatively. Ok, let me repeat that. I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode while shooting very carefully and conserving ammo. Sometimes, I ended up with no ammo at all and had expended nearly all of my pistol ammo. Have I made my point enough? Taking away damage bonuses would be a horrible idea! Taking away those bonuses would make the game absolutely no fun to play. Everybody would be wielding next to useless rifles that had little or no stopping power.

That being said, let's imagine that they did implement the update. With the beserker class being nerfed to hell and the same with the sharpshooter class, what class would be be strong enough to defend well against large hordes? Pretty much none of them would be. Don't forget that the support specialist got nerfed, too. Even the new firebug update is kind of lame. The mac 10 doesn't have a fast reload. Not to mention it's bullets have next to no stopping power. I don't even want to imagine how futile it would be to try shooting at scakes and flesh pounds with the mac 10 on suicide. I therefore urge you stop asking the makers of the game to nerf everything. Reducing the magazine size is sufficient enough to take care of spammers.

FYI: When we played yesterday, we played on hard mode.

 

[9_6]

I don't think the sharpie is that terrible anymore imo.
Perhaps pistol bonuses make him more versatile than he should be but I don't think the whole perk and all of its weapons need a complete overhaul like that.

In fact the only SS weapon with a truly ridiculous headshot damage regardless of you being a sharpie or not is the crossbow.

Perhaps seeing m14 spammers in every single game for almost a year burned the "nerf sharpshooter naow"- mindset into our head a bit much.
I for once do hardly see any of those anymore.

 

[Vaecrius]

When you titled your post "Way too much complaining on here" were you talking about your own post?

The base assumption in KF seems to be now that you carry at least two primary weapons - SS might have M14+deagles or LAR, medic MP7+whatever the hell the medic wants, firebug with flamethrower+mac. That the M14 doesn't have enough ammo to last the entire wave I think is intentional - and a way to "buff" the berserker and firebug by making them relevant again.

Has each difficulty level actually been raised? I don't see anything different that isn't a product of the fact that the SCAR and M14 are no longer the wave-clearing powerhouses they used to be.

But that said, I personally like the update... an average player (I consider myself below average after adjusting for experience) should not go into "hard" mode on a game that isn't meant to be enjoyed like a storybook and have any sense of being entitled to win.

And it's nice to be playing games that can't be demarcated as "BEBR" and "FD" (Flucto Domini - in the Wave of Our Lord).

 

[bstm300]

Don't forget

Don't forget

Don't forget get that the difficulty levels were amped up even before the major Demoman, new Commando Weapons update way back in 2009. Also, what is it that the firebug and the beserker have going for them? The beserker has virtually no stopping power with the chainsaw. Basically, the gorefasts completely clobber him in closed spaces. As for the firebug, his DPS is pretty low, making him pretty weak in the harder difficulty modes.

Look, all that I ask for is that my weapons be powerful when I get to level 6. I put a lot of time and effort into raising my characters to high levels and expect them to be able to hold their own relatively well on high difficulty modes. Is that so much to ask? I'm already pretty angry about snipers not starting with m14's, as is. I also don't like the fact that support specialist don't spawn with the street sweeper shotgun.

 

[Vaecrius]

1. If you want to win that bad play beginner more... seriously, read that last paragraph again and try to tell someone else in the room with a straight face that you're not just whining.

2. Packs of gorefasts clobber everybody in closed spaces. A berserker with a katana or a fully-armoured medic is your best bet at getting out.

3. I've seen plenty of highly effective firebugs. The point of the firebug isn't only to score direct kills, but to damage things enough that the other team members (yes they exist) can finish them off without wasting ammo or taking the time to land headshots. If you're not trying to set absolutely everything and anything on fire, you're not doing it right.

4. I'll admit I am completely unfamiliar with how the game played in 2009 since I've only been playing since July. But my impression is that KF was never intended to coddle players (outside of Beginner mode) or reward seniority independently of actual effort ingame.

 

[9_6]

Don't forget get that the difficulty levels were amped up even before the major Demoman, new Commando Weapons update way back in 2009.

They were not.
KF became consistently easier.
The biggest leap was when they fixed the head hitboxes.

 

[SMIFF]

I and a friend of mine (both KF veterans-been playing since it's release) played as sharpshooters for a good hour and a half yesterday, and I have to say that I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode with only 7 clips while shooting my M14 conservatively. Ok, let me repeat that. I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode while shooting very carefully and conserving ammo. Sometimes, I ended up with no ammo at all and had expended nearly all of my pistol ammo.

I just came out of a 6 man hard game a few hours ago which had a level 6 M14 spammer in, he was terrible, rarely got a headshot, yet he never ran out of ammo despite his seemingly near constant shooting.

You must of had alot of bad luck that game considering you're a "veteran"

Or you're just simply, a terrible player. The game shouldn't and hopefully will not cater to your lack of skill.

 

[bstm300]

I agree with a lot of what you have said

I agree with a lot of what you have said

I'll try to be as reasonable as possible but a want to bring a few more things to your attention. Putting aside all the nitty gritty technical aspects of each gun and the multipliers, I think the fundamental question here is do we want a zombie shooter to be more team based or do we want it to be more stand-alone so that you don't have to have team mates to survive.

Still, I don't think I'm imagining things. Does anybody remember the modes getting harder at some point in 2009? I and my friends who played do remember hard seeming like suicide and normal seeming like hard at some point. Yes, I do recognize that they fixed the headshot detection system making headshots easier and thus, making kills easier. Still, I always remember gorefasts and scrakes having less hp in the past. Please tell me if I'm wrong. Did they increase the hp on all of the enemies at some point or is fixing the hit boxes all that tripwire did?

 

[Vaecrius]

Putting aside all the nitty gritty technical aspects of each gun and the multipliers, I think the fundamental question here is do we want a zombie shooter to be more team based or do we want it to be more stand-alone so that you don't have to have team mates to survive.

I'd like a "co-op survival horror" game to do what it says on the tin, just as much as I would, say, a "casual zombie shoot-'em-up". The nitty gritty technical aspects are the means by which we achieve the macro ends you'd rather discuss, and to get into those aspects is an unavoidable part of the discussion.

I just came out of a 6 man hard game a few hours ago which had a level 6 M14 spammer in, he was terrible, rarely got a headshot, yet he never ran out of ammo despite his seemingly near constant shooting.

You must of had alot of bad luck that game considering you're a "veteran"

Context means a lot here.

Bstm and his friend were playing as sharpshooters... who else was in the game? If they're not relying on any melee damage or people with "trash zed" perks, it should be no surprise that they ran out of ammo.

 

[Sammers]

I'd rather take away the basic damage boost from SS and let the headshoot bonus stay making the SS players focus on headshooting not mindless M14 spamming (this is for step one). With the rest I agree

I figured someone wouldn't read all of it. I'm not taking away their headhsot damage boost. I'm simply giving them a different type of headshot damage boost(this is in step three), which allows for a better method of balancing headhost damage for other perks. I'll admit it's a lot of work for just those benefits though. I still intended to reward Sharpshooters for headshot bonus' though, don't worry.

First of all, think about what you all just said for a bit, and then, think about how the game-play has changed with the new update.

I have. The MEdic and Beserker are still godly with the Xbow.

Now that you've done that, let's consider that the M14 has been reduced from 14 clips to 7. Remember, too, that each difficulty level has been raised; meaning, hard is like the old suicide, etc. I'll also bring my post-update experience into consideration here. I and a friend of mine (both KF veterans-been playing since it's release) played as sharpshooters for a good hour and a half yesterday, and I have to say that I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode with only 7 clips while shooting my M14 conservatively. Ok, let me repeat that. I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode while shooting very carefully and conserving ammo. Sometimes, I ended up with no ammo at all and had expended nearly all of my pistol ammo.

The amount of difficulty you experience whilst playing doesn't mean a single bloody thing. I'm not nerfing Sharpshooter at all, I'm simply changing how they get their extra headshot damage. This way, the default headshot damages for the Overpowered weapons will be perfectly balanced for non-sharpshooters, while remaining at the desired power for Sharpshooters.

Have I made my point enough? Taking away damage bonuses would be a horrible idea!

You didn't make any point. You just said you experienced more difficulty with sharpshooter after the update. And I agree, taking away Sharpshooter damage bonus' WOULD be a horrible idea. Patly why I never suggested it in the first place.

Reducing the magazine size is sufficient enough to take care of spammers.

Now I'm a tad confused. Where did I say I aimed to lower the amount of spammers?

I don't consider the problem to be M14 anymore anyway. You're right that the mag reduction screwed them all over. The real killer-spammer is the Lever Action, though that's effectively balanced with a looooong reload. Honestly, spam-firing only 6 of those shots(which are stronger than M14 shots) into a Fleshpound's face on Hard is a sure way to kill it. 6 player server too.

In all seriousness though, I thought there would me more problems with this idea from everyone. Thanks for all giving your opinions. Even if a couple were only based on the first couple of steps.....

 

[Vaecrius]

In all seriousness though, I thought there would me more problems with this idea from everyone. Thanks for all giving your opinions. Even if a couple were only based on the first couple of steps.....

Meh, I've pretty much made my case against - the big SS weapons are my favourite things to use off-perk so I'd rather keep them unchanged. Beyond that I have no hard objections to making headshots more of an SS thing, except that corresponding specialization for other perks is going to be difficult to implement. (for instance, any adjustment to increase headshot damage will make it easier to take out large numbers of little guys.)

Side note: LAR is balanced as it is. Yes, it's very easy to kill a fleshpound with it if it's walking towards you down a long corridor, but that's a pretty contextually dependent tactical advantage - "only" six headshots is pretty damn hard if it's raging after someone else on uneven terrain.

As for spam: it has 80 rounds versus the M14's 160, and a high-level SS can load about 5 of those for every 20 you can replenish on the M14. Either can one-shot crawlers.

 

[bstm300]

I'd rather take away the basic damage boost from SS and let the headshoot bonus stay making the SS players focus on headshooting not mindless M14 spamming (this is for step one). With the rest I agree

I was actually referring to Braiken's suggestion. I don't want the damage boost to be taken away from SS as he suggests. I think sharpshooters should be able to do both crowd control and headshotting. This is just my opinion. Obviously, it isn't realistic; because if it were, you wouldn't be able to hip-fire so well without aiming.

I have to apologize to Vaecrius for not clarifying. I think your suggestion has merit, but is it really worth it considering all of the programming involved? Couldn't you just make the xbow have less ammo for other classes? Couldn't you just make the m14 have more kick for other classes? I think these are much easier solutions than going through all that you suggest. After all, if the desired outcome is to discourage m14 non-ss spamming and xbow's power for non-ss players, why not just go the easier route?

 

[General Armchair]

I think sharpshooters should be able to do both crowd control and headshotting. This is just my opinion. Obviously, it isn't realistic; because if it were, you wouldn't be able to hip-fire so well without aiming.

NO. NO. NO. Sharp shooters are supposed to be picking off the big guys. Something is wrong when they excel at crowd control.

I still think that they're something wrong with m14 SS being better at killing crawlers than a commando with a SCAR.

At least when a LAR SS kills crawlers, he's wasting one of his 10 rounds in the magazine, out of 80 rounds total, and then he needs to spend time individually reloading those rounds.

Couldn't you just make the xbow have less ammo for other classes?

That wouldn't accomplish much of anything. People don't complain about other classes using the crossbow as a primary weapon. People get annoyed when a crossbow wtfpwns a fleshpound/scrake and creates a very anti-climactic situation. Even with greatly reduced ammo supplies, an Xbow would have plenty of bolts to deal with a few FP's/scrakes.

Couldn't you just make the m14 have more kick for other classes?

It already has plenty of kick. SS's just ignore like 75% of it. That's exactly why you don't see other classes spamming the m14.

 

[CandleJack]

First of all, think about what you all just said for a bit, and then, think about how the game-play has changed with the new update. Now that you've done that, let's consider that the M14 has been reduced from 14 clips to 7. Remember, too, that each difficulty level has been raised; meaning, hard is like the old suicide, etc. I'll also bring my post-update experience into consideration here. I and a friend of mine (both KF veterans-been playing since it's release) played as sharpshooters for a good hour and a half yesterday, and I have to say that I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode with only 7 clips while shooting my M14 conservatively. Ok, let me repeat that. I had difficulty making it through rounds on hard mode while shooting very carefully and conserving ammo. Sometimes, I ended up with no ammo at all and had expended nearly all of my pistol ammo. Have I made my point enough? Taking away damage bonuses would be a horrible idea! Taking away those bonuses would make the game absolutely no fun to play. Everybody would be wielding next to useless rifles that had little or no stopping power.

That being said, let's imagine that they did implement the update. With the beserker class being nerfed to hell and the same with the sharpshooter class, what class would be be strong enough to defend well against large hordes? Pretty much none of them would be. Don't forget that the support specialist got nerfed, too. Even the new firebug update is kind of lame. The mac 10 doesn't have a fast reload. Not to mention it's bullets have next to no stopping power. I don't even want to imagine how futile it would be to try shooting at scakes and flesh pounds with the mac 10 on suicide. I therefore urge you stop asking the makers of the game to nerf everything. Reducing the magazine size is sufficient enough to take care of spammers.

FYI: When we played yesterday, we played on hard mode.

1. It's magazine (mag) not clip.
2. It was a good thing that the number of said mags was reduced, spamming is kerbed.
3. You didn't read the whole post obviously. Sammers said reduce the weapon's effectiveness, yes. But, he also said to increase the now-nerfed gun to make it somewhat the same before the nerf in the hands of a SS.
4. The Mac-10 has plenty of stopping power. 1 shot sets specs on fire, which barbeques them; killing them. Isn't that enough stopping power? It can crisp a Scrake too, mind you.
5. Suicidal, not suicide. Suicidal is a difficulty, suicide is something you do.
6. Reducing the magazine size isn't a good idea. It's completely unrealistic to have nonstandard magazine sizes in a gun. If you want a smaller magazine size, then you'd have to get a whole new gun. I'd suggest an M21 DMR.

Don't forget get that the difficulty levels were amped up even before the major Demoman, new Commando Weapons update way back in 2009. Also, what is it that the firebug and the beserker have going for them? The beserker has virtually no stopping power with the chainsaw. Basically, the gorefasts completely clobber him in closed spaces. As for the firebug, his DPS is pretty low, making him pretty weak in the harder difficulty modes.

Look, all that I ask for is that my weapons be powerful when I get to level 6. I put a lot of time and effort into raising my characters to high levels and expect them to be able to hold their own relatively well on high difficulty modes. Is that so much to ask? I'm already pretty angry about snipers not starting with m14's, as is. I also don't like the fact that support specialist don't spawn with the street sweeper shotgun.

1. I'm going to say you've not learnt how to use the Chainsaw effectively. An average berserker can hold his own with a chainsaw; though the masses go with the katana.
2. Firebug isn't that weak on higher difficulty levels; i find he's perfectly capable of holding his own. You just have to remember that he's intended to take down the littlies.
3. The weapons are powerful, powerful enough for their roles. 'mando isn't as strong per bullet as SS is, though his job isn't the same.
4. I'd just have to say this: if you know what you're doing, you can hold your own with pretty much anything. An SS with a 9mm is perfectly capable of killing everything short of the S/H/S/FP combination.

5. And to Sharpshooters spawning with M14s, isn't getting one to spam with easy enough? I'd personally prefer a LAR/HC to start with, the Xbow being useless on Wave 1 with nothing of value to kill with it, and the M14 just useless in general. Besides, using the M14 is bad for your habits.

I was actually referring to Braiken's suggestion. I don't want the damage boost to be taken away from SS as he suggests. I think sharpshooters should be able to do both crowd control and headshotting. This is just my opinion. Obviously, it isn't realistic; because if it were, you wouldn't be able to hip-fire so well without aiming.

I have to apologize to Vaecrius for not clarifying. I think your suggestion has merit, but is it really worth it considering all of the programming involved? Couldn't you just make the xbow have less ammo for other classes? Couldn't you just make the m14 have more kick for other classes? I think these are much easier solutions than going through all that you suggest. After all, if the desired outcome is to discourage m14 non-ss spamming and xbow's power for non-ss players, why not just go the easier route?

1. Sharpshooter doing CC? that's not the perk's intended role. That's why the SCAR was nerfed. It was too good at doing something other than its perk's intended role.
2. Perks, not classes.
3. The M14 has enough recoil for other perks. I'd really like some of that recoil to be transferred to L6 SS's.

 

[Sammers]

for instance, any adjustment to increase headshot damage will make it easier to take out large numbers of little guys.

If you're lucky/awesome enough to pull off multiple headshots with one shot fired, I think the player deserves those kills

Side note: LAR is balanced as it is. Yes, it's very ....stuff.....
six headshots is pretty damn hard if it's raging after someone else on uneven terrain.

Yeah, I think it's balanced, I was just meaning it's a little overlooked by players, as most of them think the M14's shots are stronger, due to it being more expensive etc.

I have to apologize to Vaecrius for not clarifying. I think your suggestion has merit, but is it really worth it considering all of the programming involved?

I think you mean me. you're lucky I'm feeling rather awake I don't think Vaecrius suggested any kind of programming in this thread.
And yeah, I acknowledged the fact that the programming involved will be large, a number of times. But hopefully that just makes it a less feasable suggestion and not a 'bad' one.

1. It's magazine (mag) not clip.

What next?
"It's 'Stairs' TWI! Not 'Apples'!"
Let people use slang terms if they want to.