Any Berserkers, Firebugs, or Demolitions here?

[Salad Snake]

Zerkers could use a bit more tanking ability, but most Zerkers I see could also use better tactics and situational awareness as well. How many do I see let themselves be surrounded by 3 gorefasts, eating a blade to kill all 3 instead of backpedaling, letting them come to you one by one.

Does it take 3 or 4 seconds longer? Yes.

Does it let you take NO damage to your armor? Yes! In my opinion, only the Scrake, FP, and Siren are worth taking damage to kill. In other cases, dance around the attacks until you see an opening.


Also, when confronted with a mixed group, eliminate Bloats at range before dealing with anything else. Sirens and Husks can be rushed or dodged respectively. Crawlers can't attack you if there's a Clot or Gorefast in front of them. Bloats are nigh-impossible to kill with melee without getting damaged. When playing Berzerker, every group feels like a different puzzle, to pick apart how to properly dispatch them without getting hurt or armor damaged (or at the very least minimize it). It's a mix of on-the-fly strategy, knowledge of enemy AI, and a little luck.


Also, I like to carry and M79 for crawler swarms myself. It won't kill much else unperked but it typically stuns gorefasts, which let's you catch a momentary respite from them and plan out your next move.

 

[Zeron]

Commando <-----The most unhelpful perk in the game

How so? Along with medic, support, and sharpshooter, it's one of the only good perks you can play on suicidal.

 

[outofrealman]

Still, zerker needs better body armour like medics (not as godly as medic of cos).

 

[HaTeMe]

What makes berserker good is the fact he doesnt have to reload his weapon, he wont be slown down while using his weapons, and he cant be grapped by clots. So when the rest of the team gets cornered and wiped out, berserker will just slash through the group and escape and most likely safe the day.

I find berserker the easiest perk to play with on suicidal, and Ive even soloed long game on normal with knife only as zerker. Its far from a bad perk if you know how to use it.

 

[Undedd Jester]

As HateMe said Berserker has his uses, and is another shining example of a well balanced perk alongside the Firebug and the Medic.

(Before anyone says anything about the medic, try survivng Wave 9 on a 6 man suicidal game without a Katana or a Crossbow with 120 specimens left...)

All I'd like to see is the Chainsaw back with a 1.0 headshot multiplyer and all will be well again...

And perhaps a swing speed nerf for all weapons (especially the Katana), and a bigger buff to the Zerker for his melee swing speed (So effectively its pretty much the same as it is now for him), but other classes don't find it them so easy to use.

 

[scary ghost]

The chainsaw was given a 0.25 headshot multiplier because after the Level Up patch, HeadHealth was added to the code. For clots, bloats, crawlers, stalkers, and gorefasts, they all have a base head health of 25, and that value scales only with difficulty (Phada has documented all this in his KF stats thread) to a max of 43 on suicidal.

I imagine TWI felt that with the high ROF of primary fire, the chainsaw would still be able quickly decap specimens, which it does, but the tradeoff would be you don't do enough damage to outright kill. Since the chainsaw deals such little damage on a headshot, the extra damage you receive for decapitating is still not enough to drop the specimens overall health to 0, which means you have a shambling specimen instead of a dead one.

RemoveHead() in KFMonster.uc

    // Head explodes, causing additional hurty.
    if( KFPawn(LastDamagedBy)!=None )
    {
        TakeDamage( LastDamageAmount + 0.25 * HealthMax , LastDamagedBy, LastHitLocation, LastMomentum, LastDamagedByType);
    }

From that code, bumping up the hs multiplier to 1.0 would let you insta-kill clots, stalkers, and crawlers, but gorefasts and bloats will still shamble around.

 

[Undedd Jester]

From that code, bumping up the hs multiplier to 1.0 would let you insta-kill clots, stalkers, and crawlers, but gorefasts and bloats will still shamble around.

Are you sure? Secoundary fire doesn't matter cause that kills clots stalkers and crawlers instantly anyway.

Correct me if my maths is off here but...

How much health does each specimen lose upon being decapitated?

Cause the limits for primary fire chainsaw damage are 12-17 far as I knew, and 60% extra on that is 19.2 - 27.2.

Thus removing the head will generally take 2-3 hits which means the specimen will take between 54.4 and 81.6 damage to its body, and then suffer the decapitation health loss on top of that.

Crawlers and Stalkers will surely go down, but do clots take the necessary 64% health drop to finish them off?

Mind you even just 2 hits to finish of these foes would be fine by me. It takes bugger all time to kill them when you just body shot them. Problem is you have to crouch on the floor to even stand a chance of doing so.

Still reckon it would be fine myself. Would just mean that you do regular body damage to a specimen whether you headshot them or not, the decap wouldn't really alter anything, as its already easy as pie to decap them. The big issue is simply it is more efficient to just body shot the specimens than it is to headshot them, however this is really hard to do cause the Chainsaw is a headshot magnet.

 

[Lewt]

Make sure to downrate all my posts to let me know how right you are~
​

"Medic is balanced, just as firebug is" lol.

I find berserker the easiest perk to play with on suicidal, and Ive even soloed long game on normal with knife only as zerker. Its far from a bad perk if you know how to use it.

I'm sure that some day, someone will solo suicidal with a knife, and someone else will do it with a 9mm, and yet another person with a bullpup.. Will you call zerker and commando overpowered if that happens?

Check out the damage resistance a berserker has. In combination with normal mode, some enemies can't even hurt you. It'd be like saying you stomped all the enemies to death on beginner. (Can be done with at least crawlers)

And, once again, just because you have hundreds upon hundreds of hours playing KF, or at least two-hundred playing berserker, doesn't mean it's the best perk. It means it's YOUR best perk. What I want to know, is a fundamental difference between commando, support, and berserker, that would get a new or less experienced player out of bad situations, and would let them help the team.

Oh and another question. Everyone assumes I'm bad at the game or something. What if I'm a good commando as you're a berserker? Same favoritism, just towards a different perk. You can't say "but commandos need to reload" or "the AK has bad sights/spray" or anything really, because people learn to compensate for that with 'skills' or 'experience'. Berserkers have an effective killing range of 2 feet, but they get over it. All perks have limits but all people are capable of dedicating too much time to something.

 

[Undedd Jester]

"Medic is balanced, just as firebug is" lol.

Would have preferred a little more to reply to but...

Medic is balanced, Katana and Xbow are broken. Suicidal game, try it without those weapons... all of a sudden medic requires *shock* teamwork

Firebug is balanced cuase he also requires that little word called teamwork to do well.

 

[Lewt]

I was more talking about how medic is being compared to firebug in terms of balance. You can either say that A: Some classes are underpowered, or B: everything else is overpowered.

The problem is, we have no real point of reference. How easy is the game supposed to be? Are we supposed to all be able to play commando/sharpshooter and win, or should we need some variety such as firebug or demo in our midst to lighten the load? What about level 0 - 6 perks? Difficulty? Skill level?

But yes. Medics tank waaay too much damage, and can pretty much outrun anything. You should NEVER be able to be surrounded + grabbed by clots and gorefasts, and nade yourself to get out of harm's way. (Yes. I have actually done this to prove a point.)

 

[Undedd Jester]

Well I don't know about everyone else, but my point of reference is back before the level up update. Without the level 6 perks and tier 3 weapons even Hard was bloody solid.

Glad they were added cause it made the game more interesting, but the difficulty has been taken down a notch or 2.

Medics can tank very well yes, but they can hardly solo a Wave 8, 9 or 10 wave with 100 specimens to go unless they have an Xbow or a Katana. And tbh even then on maps like Biotics Lab and Offices where there aren't big open areas he can dodge in, it is still very hard to make it through without a pretty large amount of luck.

West London, Farm, and alike are maps that medics should do well on, cause they can always get around their obstacles. However narrow corridors do create big problems.

As I say try Biotics lab without these 2 weapons. You may make it a few rounds, but after that it starts to get very rough indeed. If you prove me wrong, fair play, but I find Non X-Kat Medic alot harder to survive alone with than a Firebug any day.

 

[Zeron]

I just don't get why TWI attached stats to weapons and not the perks themselves. katana stun should be attached to the berserker perk, not the katana itself. As well as the headshot multiplier for crossbows, this should have been attached to the SS perk itself.

These weapons should only be as powerful as they are in the hands of their own perk, that's just how it should be.

 

[Lewt]

Jester: Well for one, I don't play suicidal in the first place (rare exceptions like with a group of friends). Too much effort if you want total honesty. I'd rather use firebug on hard or something instead of sharpshooter/commando on suicidal.

Imo, a single person should not be able to kill 100 zombies on their own in suicidal during one wave, at all. If you have a group of 4 people, who are each capable of soloing 100 ~ 150 zombies on their own, then how easy would it be for all of them together? Playing in a team is the only real way to play KF.. anything else is extremely boring and simply kiting. Some people might find solo fun but I really don't.

Zeron: That'd probably work, now that I think about it. As commando I generally use the MP7/AK/SCAR, and Support with the Pump-action/Crossbow(only on a low difficulty or with low player count)/MP7. Although the MP7 makes you a secondary medic and more of a team player, it more than doubles your healing potential. A nearly dead teammate going up 80 HP from a non-medic seems a bit odd; but I'm used to playing medic anyway.
Basically, if you remove the katana stun and crossbow multiplier, make sure to get all the other weapons too..

 

[Undedd Jester]

Well are you level 6 in Hard? If so any perk is well overpowered in Hard. The reason you find Suicidal difficult is because that is how killing floor is meant to be. Difficult.

If that is the case it is probably why you aren't seeing the solo arguement. Players will not die very often in Hard, because tbh it isn't all that hard. I'm so used to Suicidal now, I play with the L.A.W. in hard because otherwise I get insanely bored. I would prefer being level 3 or 4 again so I could play in Hard tbh, because it is the most fun trying to compensate for money and perk weaknesses, but level 6 is too powerful for me to enjoy that difficulty.

Since suicidal is actually where level 6 perks are meant to be, it isn't uncommon for people to die, and I personally have found myself the last man standing quite a few times before. 100 specimens solo is a big ask of any perk, but it is doable.

My arguement is, IF you are caught alone against 100 specimens because your team has died, I find that a medic not using the Katana or Xbow has an extremely hard time. The Firebug is easier to play in this instance because although he isn't good against scrakes or Fleshpounds, he can easily clear his way through everything else. Sharpshooter, Commando and maybe the Support Specialist (although to be honest support is quite well balanced without off perk weapons) will find it substantially easier than both the FB and Medic to survive the horde alone, because they are Overpowered. That is my arguement

Overall point: Killing Floor the mod was always very hard. The retail version at first reflected this well, right up until the Level Up Update where it became suddenly alot easier. Not easy, but definately easier.

The medic while his team is laive should be focusing on healing his team, if his team is dead, without an Xbox or Kat he is very difficult to use. Judging the Medic as an overpowered perk when playing on a lower difficulty than you should be doesn't really hold much weight as an arguement I'm afraid dude

 

[scary ghost]

Zeron: That'd probably work, now that I think about it. As commando I generally use the MP7/AK/SCAR, and Support with the Pump-action/Crossbow(only on a low difficulty or with low player count)/MP7. Although the MP7 makes you a secondary medic and more of a team player, it more than doubles your healing potential. A nearly dead teammate going up 80 HP from a non-medic seems a bit odd; but I'm used to playing medic anyway.
Basically, if you remove the katana stun and crossbow multiplier, make sure to get all the other weapons too..

Katana stunning is not a property of the katana. A katana can stun specimens because they have the MeleeStunning variable set to false except scrakes, fleshpounds, and the patriarch.

KFMonster.uc

var() bool bMeleeStunImmune; // if true, this monster cannot be stunned or staggered by melee blows

Scrakes are only stunned by melee attacks because you are dealing a huge chunk of damage to them per swing. A LAR headshot from a level 6 SS will stun a scrake as will a rocket from the LAW or an alt fire knife headshot from a level 6 zerker.

Are you sure? Secoundary fire doesn't matter cause that kills clots stalkers and crawlers instantly anyway.

Correct me if my maths is off here but...

How much health does each specimen lose upon being decapitated?

Cause the limits for primary fire chainsaw damage are 12-17 far as I knew, and 60% extra on that is 19.2 - 27.2.

Thus removing the head will generally take 2-3 hits which means the specimen will take between 54.4 and 81.6 damage to its body, and then suffer the decapitation health loss on top of that.

Crawlers and Stalkers will surely go down, but do clots take the necessary 64% health drop to finish them off?

Mind you even just 2 hits to finish of these foes would be fine by me. It takes bugger all time to kill them when you just body shot them. Problem is you have to crouch on the floor to even stand a chance of doing so.

Still reckon it would be fine myself. Would just mean that you do regular body damage to a specimen whether you headshot them or not, the decap wouldn't really alter anything, as its already easy as pie to decap them. The big issue is simply it is more efficient to just body shot the specimens than it is to headshot them, however this is really hard to do cause the Chainsaw is a headshot magnet.

I believe clots will go down as well. From what I understand in the code is that the extra damage (25% of max health) is added to the last damage you just did and that new value gets perk and headshot bonuses so you're actually doing a huge chunk of damage when you decapitate, not simply an extra 25% of max health. The code flow goes as follows:

• TakeDamage() -> RemoveHead() -> TakeDamage(lastDamage+0.25*MaxHP, lastDamageType, LastHitLocation)

 

[Zeron]

Katana stunning is not a property of the katana. A katana can stun specimens because they have the MeleeStunning variable set to false except scrakes, fleshpounds, and the patriarch.

KFMonster.uc

var() bool bMeleeStunImmune; // if true, this monster cannot be stunned or staggered by melee blows

Scrakes are only stunned by melee attacks because you are dealing a huge chunk of damage to them per swing. A LAR headshot from a level 6 SS will stun a scrake as will a rocket from the LAW or an alt fire knife headshot from a level 6 zerker.

I see, i have never delved into the code so i thought it was a property of the weapon that the katana stunned stuff.

Although the headshot multiplier is attached to the crossbow yes? The crossbow would be pretty much useless in the hands of other perks if the headshot multiplier was only brought about by the SS perk.

 

[scary ghost]

I see, i have never delved into the code so i thought it was a property of the weapon that the katana stunned stuff.

Although the headshot multiplier is attached to the crossbow yes? The crossbow would be pretty much useless in the hands of other perks if the headshot multiplier was only brought about by the SS perk.

Yeah, the crossbow hs multiplier is attached to the crossbow. And I agree, the weapon itself is far too strong in the hands of a non sharpshooter with a 7.8 multiplier. I've always felt it needed to be cut in half to 3.9x unperked, or more.

 

[Lewt]

Scary: Ah, I see. I was responding to Zeron though, as I previously didn't know. Now the lever action stun makes sense : P

Well are you level 6 in Hard?

Actually, no.

suicidal is actually where level 6 perks are meant to be, it isn't uncommon for people to die

So you're saying that suicidal is difficult..

100 specimens solo is a big ask of any perk, but it is doable.

But you can pretty much just solo it if you're good enough, despite the perk issues. There's the problem.

if his team is dead, without an Xbox or Kat he is very difficult to use. Judging the Medic as an overpowered perk when playing on a lower difficulty than you should be doesn't really hold much weight as an arguement I'm afraid dude

I'm judging it as overpowered, because even without the xbow or katana, you can still run, dodge, not get hurt, etc. You don't exactly need to deal huge amounts of damage to kill specimens.

Well. You compare to the old KF a lot. Remember how medics had +50% speed at level 5? It got nerfed because they were simply faster than everything. There was no katana back then and the bow wasn't widely used if I recall correctly. They could solo it with a bullpup, 9mm, and knife if they wanted. As of now they still have ~+25%, which is still enough to dodge many things. The difference is that there are better weapons.

 

[Undedd Jester]

The point you seem to be missing is the medic gets 0 boost to damage at all, period, regardless of level. On hard the base damage on the weapons is just about enough to get you by as a Medic. On suicidal however even with his vastly superior survivability, dishing out the damage to get the kills is actually very hard, unless you use the Katana or Crossbow. This is because these weapons are overpowered, the Medic is not. With the 9mm I myself have known it to take 4 or 5 shots just to decap a clot, and this doesn't help alot when there are 7 all a round you. You try to pull back, get grabbed as you reload and summarily get shanked by a gorefasts which strips you instantly of 10 points of armour... and thats ignoring all the clots and crawlers chewing on you.

Your points on how the medic had 50% speed before and 25% now is kind of an invalid arguement tbh. Before there was no husk, no random fleshpound rage, plus gorefasts and Scrakes couldn't hit you on the move. Now they can, and with the big boosts in suicidal health bonus' regular weapon like the bullpup, 9mm and knife, aren't adept enough to punch a whole through the crowd when you inevitably get surrounded on smaller maps. On farm you MIGHT stand a chance, but on small maps your gonna have a real hard time.


Arguements addressing the skill issue

Also I hardly find it a convincing arguement that a player being skilled enough to survive makes you consider a perk overpowered. As a medic it is so easy to make a mistake now with the specimen upgrades and get blocked its untrue, but if you don't make a mistake then you are going to win (although it is very hard to do). Are you gonna tell me that the Firebug is overpowered because I took on 150 specimens single handed without taking a point of damage? Answer no, because I simply knew what I was doing.

It is 1 thing I liked about Killing Floor over left 4 dead. The odds may be stacked massively against you, but it is never game over until it is over. L4D plays by the principle, once your team is dead, you are dead. Period. No matter how good you are, you are toast. 1 lucky smoker or hunter and bang game over. I'm glad killing floor isn't like this cause L4D essentially has an instifrag that can hit you from miles away behind the trees.

I'm not being an asshole here dude, but seriously I jsut am not going to buy that the medic is overpowered when it is such a big ask to survive on Suicidal. There are players who can do it because they have played long enough to get good enough at it, but that doesn't make it easy. Look at games like Counter Strike. There are players that can hit shots on you before you even know they are there.

YouTube - Css awp-short frag movie

YouTube - De_Dust2 Awp Mid Gap - Counter Strike Source

The funny thing is, things like this in CSS are considered pretty average, because most players who have consistently played have done this themselves a fair few times. Its definately not easy to do, but the point is it can be done by the people who put in the time.

Anyway I think I'm gonna stop there, I think we've derailed this thread enough. I think the point was driving at way back when was. Nerf the Sharpshooter and the Commando, and maybe the Support (although he is probably fine tbh.) Otherwise, perks are fine. Its just weapon tweaks needed after that.

 

[9_6]

Please tell me "medic is OP" and "katana is OP" will not become the latest fads...