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General Consensus on what the Content Patch will mean for the Sharp

Iv always seen the sharpshooters role as taking out ranged specimens and doing good-ish damage to the big specimens, this should be his role

i see the SS as taking out specimens from a distance regardless as to whether or not they have ranged attacks. remember, before the addition of the Husk, the only ranged specimen was the siren (bloat....well yeah, not much of a ranged attack). the Scrake is slow moving unless enraged. the FP is similar but a bit faster. the SS taking them out before they can get close enough to the rest of the players is exactly what a skilled marksmen using a weapon designed for accuracy over longer distances IS supposed to be doing. it's also headshots which should be the focus of the SS and his reward for getting them should be pretty significant. if he doesn't get a headshot he does only do "goodish" damage to the big specimens. the real issue is that right now, it's not that difficult to get headshots (due in part to corrected hitboxes).

additionally, these priority targets are fewer in number, meaning he should be putting his focus into eliminating them while the other perks focus on the mobs of the other various lower specimens. the ability to spam encourages SS to shoot at everything else. weapons like the EBR let him spam away knowing full well that if he ignores priority targets, he can still take them out when they get close by spamming at their heads to make use of his headshot bonus. taking away the ability to fill a non-perk role would re-focus the emphasis on players learning how to actually their job.

Taking out everything instantly is rediculous, you know it, and I know it

keeping that comment within certain perspectives, i'd agree with you about that. 1 shotting (not even always headshots) every small/medium zed with the spammEBR is quite rediculous. i've never argued that is balanced. however 1 shotting with a weapon like the crossbow that has such low ammo, is a single shot weapon and has "slow" reload, i view as being good weapon balance. if he can only get 25 (ammo reduction on bow is needed) oneshots, that leaves up to what, possibly 250 more zeds for others to kill? you could mention the 9mm, and rightfully so, yes SS shouldn't be able to spam away with pistols on the small/medium stuff. maybe keep the headshot bonus applied, but no body damage boost....also something to think about, what about only applying the headshot bonus if the weapon is fired using ironsights? would help reduced spammed hipshots.


So please, stop trying to defend a blatantly overpowered weapon

i'm not really defending a single weapon in particular so much as people such as yourself are trying to attack it. i'm more or less just pointing out inaccuracies and holes in your arguements which show that your opinions aren't valid as i attempt to clarify the facts of the matter while accounting for a broad range of factors that play into multiple issues regarding mainly one perk (SS), his role, and all the weapons that affect how that all pans out.

The facts and evidence is all around you when you play the game, at least 2 - 3 sharpshooters in almost every single game, varying between m14 spammer, and instant FP/Scrake/Challenge/Fun remover

yes, i actually play the game and yes i see that's the typical case these days, and yes i sure as hell DON'T like it. however, i don't pin the blame soley on the functionality of the Crossbow, or the designed role of the sharpshooter perk. for the issue of too many SS spammers, i blame the EBR being linked as a SS's weapon because by design, it allows SSs to infringe on the roles of other perks.....those spammers should be playing as commandos/supports/demos/firebugs. you take that weapon away from him, you help stop the spam. i also blame the pistols being given to the SS which also allows effective spam. take those away and you help stop the spam. thus, players that want to spam will use other perks that are better at that role. the only thing i "blame" the crossbow for is that it's really the only weapon that is highly effective at killing the big guys, FP/Scrake. i always felt like the zerker got screwed over once he lost his chainsaw and ability to decap FP. if that was brought back, it'd take some of that attention away from the SS being the only "anti-FP" role.

the other issue i've always brought up is that there should be role limits in game.....you give players the option to choose their perks, they will by nature always want to pick whichever is the most "godlike". it doesnt matter which perk is the current "god" perk because everyone will play it. back in the pre-hitbox fix days, everyone wanted to play zerker to decap FP and stun Scrakes. sure say the SS is nerfed to hell, then maybe the commando becomes the new "god" perk. my solution to prevent all of that is limit how many can play each class. that way you force each perk to be used, make sure each role is being filled, and prevent "powerful" perks from becoming "overpowerful".

Oh, and the bit about the commando, you would of killed the fleshpound with the second shot....which is still overpowered

well, you assume that firstly, you'd get the headshot on the now raging FP and secondly the actual damage would be enough to finish him off. do you happen to have the stats handy to prove that a level3 commando on hard, in a 6 man server, can get two headshots using the bow and decap a FP? i could be wrong, but i doubt it's possible.....by all means i'd love to find out either way.

and why does that make it overpowered? because that's not the commandos' job......for one thing he shouldn't have access to that weapon, again the idea is that his ability to use a powerful weapon makes the weapon appear overpowered. pretty simple solution to solving something like that, make it expensive enough base price that he'll never afford it, or better yet, just don't let him buy it at all. reduce the base damage so that without the SS headshot bonus, a non-SS won't get a one-shot, two-shot or three-shot decap with it, but a high level SS will. although note that if you agree to the fact that the power of the weapon should be different for the perk that is using it, then you also establish that it is the role of that perk to use that weapon in order to be more effective at completing a task (in this case FP decap/elimination) than another class would be at using the same weapon.
 
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the other issue i've always brought up is that there should be role limits in game.....you give players the option to choose their perks, they will by nature always want to pick whichever is the most "godlike". it doesnt matter which perk is the current "god" perk because everyone will play it. back in the pre-hitbox fix days, everyone wanted to play zerker to decap FP and stun Scrakes. sure say the SS is nerfed to hell, then maybe the commando becomes the new "god" perk. my solution to prevent all of that is limit how many can play each class. that way you force each perk to be used, make sure each role is being filled, and prevent "powerful" perks from becoming "overpowerful".

I agree with your analysis but I think your solution would be ineffective. It's the same as implementing class limits in TF2: If you limit Snipers to 2, the first 2 people on a team that can reach the 8 key will switch to Sniper and stay Sniper until they leave the server. Likewise, if you limit sharpies to 2, the first 2 players to load the map will fill those slots and hog them because they don't want to lost their spot.

The only real solution is to reduce how multipurpose, "godlike" each class can be and force ALL of them to alomst totally rely on another class for something (like close-range for Demo, crawler swarms for Berzerker, or Scrake/FP for Scar-less Commando), then make them as even in power as you possibly can while retaining their extremely varied strengths.
 
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I agree with your analysis but I think your solution would be ineffective. It's the same as implementing class limits in TF2: If you limit Snipers to 2, the first 2 people on a team that can reach the 8 key will switch to Sniper and stay Sniper until they leave the server. Likewise, if you limit sharpies to 2, the first 2 players to load the map will fill those slots and hog them because they don't want to lost their spot.

The only real solution is to reduce how multipurpose, "godlike" each class can be and force ALL of them to alomst totally rely on another class for something (like close-range for Demo, crawler swarms for Berzerker, or Scrake/FP for Scar-less Commando), then make them as even in power as you possibly can while retaining their extremely varied strengths.


yup that's a good way of looking at it. while perk restriction would work at reducing perks numerically being "overpowered", i could agree that i'd bring up problems with who can choose the perk first, people not being as qualified as others at a perk etc.... in theory, if the ranking system was exploit proof, then it'd work. but as we've seen with the system, it was easliy exploitable for quite some time. so yes, the only real solution is to reduce how multipurpose classes can be. example would be taking away the SS ability to spam, or taking away the medic's ability to "zerker rambo". thing is that in order to do that, the game has to define how perks/roles should be played. i've always viewed the game as already doing this, but for some people, they don't think the game should dictate how to play and thus disagree with many of the proposed changes that would solve that problem
 
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Limiting how many of each perk there is really isn't the answer. Then it would just be a race to who can be the first X of each X perk. If people really want to play a perk, i'm fine with it. As long as they don't suck at it.

I'm just terribly sick of seeing how blatantly overpowered SS is compared to other classes. It can kill EVERYTHING with ease.


  • Clots, Crawlers, Gorefasts, Bloats? 9mm those guys into oblivon!
  • Sirens and Husks? Handcannon those mofos!
  • Scrakes and Fleshpounds? Crossbow them to infinity and beyond!

I'm also sick of every new player i come across that just goes "I like sharpshooter the best" just because it's the first perk they ever played since they started with the 9mm and don't know any better. Just once i'd like to hear something different. Just once, Humor me please? Geez. But this is a rant for another thread, my apologies.

I'm just sick of seeing that 80% of this game is Sharpshooters. If you think any different stop playing with all your friends for a day and play by yourself on a random server once in a while. You'll know what i'm talking about.

EDIT: Only 1500 more spammed headshots until lvl 6 SS, YEAH!
 
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yup that's a good way of looking at it. while perk restriction would work at reducing perks numerically being "overpowered", i could agree that i'd bring up problems with who can choose the perk first, people not being as qualified as others at a perk etc.... in theory, if the ranking system was exploit proof, then it'd work. but as we've seen with the system, it was easliy exploitable for quite some time. so yes, the only real solution is to reduce how multipurpose classes can be. example would be taking away the SS ability to spam, or taking away the medic's ability to "zerker rambo". thing is that in order to do that, the game has to define how perks/roles should be played. i've always viewed the game as already doing this, but for some people, they don't think the game should dictate how to play and thus disagree with many of the proposed changes that would solve that problem

Personally I think Zerdic is fine (or near-fine enough that it can wait until after most other problems), it's just Berzerker that needs to be buffed to be less "squishy" like the Medic. However, I do think Firebug needs variety (already going to be addressed), Demo needs a cheap tier-1 weapon (like an explosive dart pistol or something), and most of all Sharpshooter needs toning down.

Also I don't think akimbo pistols are sharpshooter weapons, I would be for akimbo pistols falling under Medic or Commando instead since they're typically backup self-defense weapons (Medic) and they have hefty reload times (Commando). This would kind of mess up Shapies that accidentally run over another 9mm while fleeing though.



Edit: My opinion on the reason everyone (newbies) likes Sharpshooter is the same reason people always like the Sniper, Recon, Rogue, Ninja class. The precision/stealth-based player is ALWAYS glorified over others in FPS culture, hence people jump to those classes because they always view them as more "leet". It's an image thing that FPS games have drilled in player's heads (I almost never see a screen name that references heavy machine guns or rocket who**s but there's always a ton of "xxXXDAEM0N/SNIP3R/NINJURAIXXxx"-type of names).

Even when the precision class sucks in terms of strength (TF2 Sniper for instance is under "support" and behaves like it), people still jump to it because they expect that they are "leet" enough to defeat anyone using a non-cool class. In my opinion it's really just a psychological "Snipers are cool" thing.
 
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I think what comes to nerf Sharpshooter.. Only 1 or 2 things should try at first hand and then look how it effects to the gameplay.

If all of the suggested ideas of nerfing Sharpshooter comes true, feeling is gone for enjoyable gameplay. But maybe 1 or 2 of those nerfs may solve whole problem, that is just nice. And playing as sharpshoooter would be still enjoyable for those who really like that perk.
 
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How does nerfing Sharpshooter weapons effects to Friendly Fire game?

I just was Hard game Friendly Fire server, and i found it very good game.

With friendly fire there is not much weapons to help player quick, in those situations when you need to kill many specimens very near to player that needs help?

Explosives are pretty dangerous to use. Also shotguns if behind. (?)

Anyway, FF games are pretty good mode, just noticed. We didnt make it, died in wave 9. There was 2 supports, 1 mele and 1 demo (me with pipes mostly). Our Mele was pretty best player, got many scrakes(only level3, pro i think). Wonder how that game have gone, if there was were 1 sniper also. Map was Wyre. Must go another time, such a great is that FF.
 
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Limiting how many of each perk there is really isn't the answer. Then it would just be a race to who can be the first X of each X perk. If people really want to play a perk, i'm fine with it. As long as they don't suck at it.

I'm just terribly sick of seeing how blatantly overpowered SS is compared to other classes. It can kill EVERYTHING with ease.


  • Clots, Crawlers, Gorefasts, Bloats? 9mm those guys into oblivon!
  • Sirens and Husks? Handcannon those mofos!
  • Scrakes and Fleshpounds? Crossbow them to infinity and beyond!
I'm also sick of every new player i come across that just goes "I like sharpshooter the best" just because it's the first perk they ever played since they started with the 9mm and don't know any better. Just once i'd like to hear something different. Just once, Humor me please? Geez. But this is a rant for another thread, my apologies.

I'm just sick of seeing that 80% of this game is Sharpshooters. If you think any different stop playing with all your friends for a day and play by yourself on a random server once in a while. You'll know what i'm talking about.

EDIT: Only 1500 more spammed headshots until lvl 6 SS, YEAH!

yeah, its true.

But I notice you refrain from using the word "EBR"

You know that no thread is immune to M14 madness.
 
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The thing about Sharpshooters is that they largely remove a lot of the TENSION from the game. All the rest of the classes can easily handle everything below a scrake, and usually the scrake, too, without any real terror unless they get themselves walled into a corner and are running low on ammo or something.

So the Fleshpound comes, everyone's ****ting themselves, someone's running in a circle with it on their heels, pouring ammo into the fleshpound. That's hilarious and awesome.

Except with a Sharpshooter he spots the FP in the distance and one-shots it with a crossbow. Woo, fun.

I remember it says that removing the head is supposed to disable specimen special attacks/abilities, like it does with the bloat, but fact is that the bloat, gorefast and clot are about the only specimens I've ever seen beheaded without an instant kill.

Imagine if that was more common, though, if beheading removed, at max, 50% of a specimen's head(for scrakes, fleshpounds and husks). The sharpshooter would be vital in disabling husk fire weapons, FP and scrape Berserking, as well as shaving off a massive chunk of their health.

But they wouldn't instakill them at once, then it'd be up to the rest of the team to pile on and take them out before they pulped someone.

Also of course with THAT modification, sharpshooters would need to get perk+ just for head removal, not for head removal that kills.

EDIT: Also about the M14, that's probably the only sharpshooter weapon I never see used. The LAR is lovely at low levels, the crossbow for slicing down the big guys and the handcannon for handling the swarms. But the M14? Never see it in use. I think part is that the scope is just damn terrible for any sort of casual shooting against the swarms and stuff. I think the M14 can live without a nerfing.
 
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After some thinking i feel that only level 6 sharpshooter feel worthy enough to be able to 1 shot 1 kill any specimens using the crossbow. Since sharpshooter is essentially the "sniper" of the squad he is the only class that could bring down the dangerous specimens from long range and kill it instantly.

However a lot of people disagree that fleshpound should not be 1 hit K.O by sharpshooter due to the fact that it is a high tier specimen only second to patriarch in suicidal difficulty.

But the point of a sharpshooter perk is to assist team in taking down fleshpound which no other class could manage to kill them without getting some damage. Worst case if the fleshpound is not dead it could jeopardies the whole team and is usually the cause of defeat for the game.

Especially suicidal mode when even some low tier specimens could kill you if you're not careful enough thus making sharpshooter's role to be even more crucial than the rest.

The crossbow is the only weapon that could instantly K.O any specimens as long you aim for the head when use by a high level sharpshooter and it should be allow to stay in that way since it the one and only. However i feel that the ability to penetrate multiple specimens is the key culprit that cause sharpshooter to be OP and should be reduce to none.

Next i propose that the crossbow should no longer receive bonus reload speed for using such powerful weapon there must be a price to be paid. Thirdly the ammo should be reduce to just 25 which is surely enough to take down all the scrakes and fleshpounds during any wave applicable to.

Lastly the 6x headshot multiplier of crossbow be remove from the weapon and instead give it to the sharpshooter perk itself. From level 1 to level 6 the headshot bonus of crossbow will be increase by 1 per level. In future if TWI wants to up the level cap of perks they should no longer increase the crossbow multiplier bonus anymore to balance the perk.
 
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EDIT: Also about the M14, that's probably the only sharpshooter weapon I never see used. The LAR is lovely at low levels, the crossbow for slicing down the big guys and the handcannon for handling the swarms. But the M14? Never see it in use. I think part is that the scope is just damn terrible for any sort of casual shooting against the swarms and stuff. I think the M14 can live without a nerfing.

The "scope" is the iron sights mate.

The M14 i see in use pretty much every game, and i think if anything is nerfed, that the M14 is the one weapon that deserves it.
 
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The thing about Sharpshooters is that they largely remove a lot of the TENSION from the game. All the rest of the classes can easily handle everything below a scrake, and usually the scrake, too, without any real terror unless they get themselves walled into a corner and are running low on ammo or something.

So the Fleshpound comes, everyone's ****ting themselves, someone's running in a circle with it on their heels, pouring ammo into the fleshpound. That's hilarious and awesome.

Except with a Sharpshooter he spots the FP in the distance and one-shots it with a crossbow. Woo, fun.

I remember it says that removing the head is supposed to disable specimen special attacks/abilities, like it does with the bloat, but fact is that the bloat, gorefast and clot are about the only specimens I've ever seen beheaded without an instant kill.

Imagine if that was more common, though, if beheading removed, at max, 50% of a specimen's head(for scrakes, fleshpounds and husks). The sharpshooter would be vital in disabling husk fire weapons, FP and scrape Berserking, as well as shaving off a massive chunk of their health.

But they wouldn't instakill them at once, then it'd be up to the rest of the team to pile on and take them out before they pulped someone.

Also of course with THAT modification, sharpshooters would need to get perk+ just for head removal, not for head removal that kills.

EDIT: Also about the M14, that's probably the only sharpshooter weapon I never see used. The LAR is lovely at low levels, the crossbow for slicing down the big guys and the handcannon for handling the swarms. But the M14? Never see it in use. I think part is that the scope is just damn terrible for any sort of casual shooting against the swarms and stuff. I think the M14 can live without a nerfing.
You REALLY think the m14 is fine as is? Congratulations, you're the first person i've ever seen that hasn't just known it was OP from the start.

I'm finally glad all the m14 threads calmed down, apparently realized complaining about it won't make the balance update come any faster.

Although i do agree i think that removing a specimen's head(any specimen, that's right, even the fp) should just disable special abilities and not insta kill(except maybe for zerker, when they wobble around as berseker you're kinda in trouble and it would totally break that perk) and it's still wobbling towards you. I've seen FPs roam around for a few seconds without heads, it's pretty funny.
 
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EDIT: Also about the M14, that's probably the only sharpshooter weapon I never see used. The LAR is lovely at low levels, the crossbow for slicing down the big guys and the handcannon for handling the swarms. But the M14? Never see it in use. I think part is that the scope is just damn terrible for any sort of casual shooting against the swarms and stuff. I think the M14 can live without a nerfing.

Did...did you really just say that?
 
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Am I a troll just because I disagree? No one in the circle of people that I regularly play with, or on the servers that I casually play on, ever breaks out the M14. It's always all about the crossbow because it's a secure one-shot on the big boys. I almost never see the M14 in use, and if I have, I must not have really noticed it, meaning that it can't be THAT ridiculously broken.

After some thinking i feel that only level 6 sharpshooter feel worthy enough to be able to 1 shot 1 kill any specimens using the crossbow. Since sharpshooter is essentially the "sniper" of the squad he is the only class that could bring down the dangerous specimens from long range and kill it instantly.

The only class that can do something about a given specimen, see, this is a bad thing. Once you get into that sort of thinking, you FORCE people to have a Sharpshooter along on the higher difficulties. That's bad. No single class should be NECESSARY, I think that's terrible gameplay.

I've seen Husks, Sirens, and Scrakes beheaded (hell, I've done it myself as well), but they usually die very soon after it happens. The Scrake pretty much just acts like a beheaded gorefast when it happens to him.

I've seen a wobbling husk once, but other than that, pretty much never. I just think it would be a way to make sharpshooters interesting and useful without giving them one-shot, one-kill on everything.

The "scope" is the iron sights mate.

The M14 i see in use pretty much every game, and i think if anything is nerfed, that the M14 is the one weapon that deserves it.

Scope, sights, whichever. The point is, they're terrible compared to the ironsights and scopes on the other weapons in the game.

So you're saying the M14 needs nerfing more than a weapon that can kill the second-toughest enemy in the game with one shot? I... think we have different opinions on what's overpowered, here.

In future if TWI wants to up the level cap of perks they should no longer increase the crossbow multiplier bonus anymore to balance the perk.

Holy God, man, way to tap into my nightmares. A higher cap on the perks? I cannot think of anything terrifying. It already requires ridiculous amounts of playtime to get to level 5 with most of the perks. Anything about 6 would be reserved for the truly obsessed.

I think it might be nice to have it as a purely cosmetic thing, that is, 7+ ranks just to show that OMG I HAVE PLAYED FOREVER, but it really should not give any bonuses. It's already fun-ruining enough when a bunch of level 2 to 3 guys get invaded by L6 Sharpshooters and Commandos.
 
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Er...do you play only on Normal or something? Because that's the only place you'll find "level 2 players being invaded by level 6." On Suicidal and Hard - where you should be playing if you're level 5 - it's pretty much the other way around.

Also, your logic of "I never see the EBR in use therefore it can't be broken" sucks. I don't know who you're playing with or on what servers, but I and probably everyone else who plays KF see the EBR broken out every single game. No exaggeration.
 
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