Suppression effects in HOS?

[Zetsumei]

Well, the fortunate thing is when you're under fire, as long as you can place a moderately tight grouping on the person "suppressing you" with a decent rate of fire, you can actually cause enough "suppression" on them to let off some of the danger.

Sounds like a valid tactic to battle being suppressed especially if you have a buddy next to you that can try to suppress the person that is suppressing you.

"For example a rifle or machine gun bullet may only have a suppressive effect within about 1 metre of its trajectory. However, a single artillery shell may suppress a few thousand square metres around its burst"

I quote this bit simply to remember you that suppressive fire is not just random firing bullets in the direction of a target, they need to pass within about 1 meter of a target to make him suppressed. However indeed it's a bigger target than when trying to kill someone, which is one of the exact reasons why suppressive fire is actually used through area fire at ranges where an individual target cannot even be seen. But if you can actually manage to put bullets within 1 meter of the guy actually suppressing you in DH, then the suppressive effect of DH doesn't take away as much control as you claim it does .

It's quite silly watchin' somebody spray bullets at you and watching their cone of fire expand because you get a few rounds off at them.

Well considering cone of fire is often used in game terms to depict how accurately a bullet comes out of a barrel I'll refrain from using that term. But indeed the idea of suppression is that someone's ability to aim accurately goes down, and its not that silly considering the same thing happens in real world combat.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

zets, no matter how much you want it to happen, pub play will never have real tactical gameplay, or at least not to the point you desire it to be. applying artificial suppression mechanics that take away from the player's control over his avatar just to achieve something that in itself is simply not 100% achieveable is imo not a good trade off. it's just something everyone has to accept. if you want more tactical gameplay, then that's why we have clan play. like REZ pointed out already, in organized play, suppression works without having to apply unrealistic mechanisms because the players are already suppressing themselves and using tactics.

i know you've played DH before and i don't question your experiences with it, but seriously, you're greatly exaggerating the "suppression effect" of people finding cover and using better "tactics".....unless you joined the 29th and the only DH you play is in an "organized" setting. the pub play in DH is almost identical to the pub play in RO and while the suppression system may slightly affect the decision making of individuals in one isolated section of a map in "mini-engagements", it doesn't come close to significantly affecting the overall "tactical" play of teams comprised of public players.

 

[Zetsumei]

Of course pub play will never have real tactical teamwork, I'm not implying that either. However having suppression makes the gunplay a lot more realistic. And even on an individual account you can utilize it to move forward.

Suppression is the basis on which real world tactics are made. Even when not utilizing real tactics there is still a big hole in the behaviour. And DH actually managed to fix that hole. For instance suppression greatly helps in making MG's and other (semi) automatic weapons be as effective as they should be.

Making realistic tactics work goes further than just being able to use those tactics, if the same tactics in real life can be used. Then that means the variables of the game and its behaviour is actually closer to reality as well. If basically clans which always find tactics that work the best in a game regardless of real life start using real tactics then you know that something is right.

I'm not saying people find cover so much in DH, again nobody is scared of the DH suppression effect and nobody ever will be. I'm saying players are suppressed as in unable to return accurate fire. That is all, and that is all that I would want to see.

 

[reyalpOR]

All's I know is that it's terribly humorous when an MG player tries to shoot me in RO.

I think to myself, "Har Har, this guy is trying to shoot me with his many rounds. I'll just carefully pop him in the head while his wasted rounds fly by me ".

^^^that's got to be wrong^^^

DH, on the other hand, does a better job at keeping my head down. Because of those crazy effects, I find it pointless/difficult to try and shoot the MG'er. Which in turn is what suppression is suppose to do, which in turn makes me rethink my tactics. Tactically speaking though, all I have to do is move either left or right until the effects are less apparent and try again.

RO's suppression effect is just not that effective, therefore I side with DH. Tweaks are still in order though, that friendly fire suppression has to be tweaked for sure.

 

[LemoN]

Here is some old information gathered together about the act of suppression: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=556212&postcount=96

Good stuff mate.

After all this hate and b*tching about "taking away control" I have to say:

Recoil = taking away control from the player?
Weapon sway = taking away control from the player?
Slight weapon inaccuracy = taking away control from the play?

This taking away control from the player "argument" is not valid in RO.
If you think so, go play Call of Duty fcs. You have total control there, 100% accurate weapons, no sway and no recoil!

Isn't that great?

 

[VariousNames]

Sounds like a valid tactic to battle being suppressed especially if you have a buddy next to you that can try to suppress the person that is suppressing you.
But indeed the idea of suppression is that someone's ability to aim accurately goes down, and its not that silly considering the same thing happens in real world combat.

It is indeed a valid tactic in DH because it works.

What I am saying is that this in no way reflects the opinion that suppression prevents a person from firing back. In fact, even when suppressed in DH, my first reaction is to exploit the suppression mechanic to gain the upper hand in a suppression battle.

Just like when you have an SMG duel in close quarters in DH it's all about who can put out more FWAPS per second.

You said it was a valid tactic, and on that note, I hope that you're not going to try and contradict that by saying that suppression discourages return fire from suppressed persons.

 

[Vyllis]

Well sayed, Lemon !

In RO covering & suppression fire doesn't work at all: All riflemen can easily kill a firing machigunner with a good head shot, even, if they are targeted.

As already say : machine-guns are finally useful in DH as the covering and suppressive fire work well with their system.

Yes it's not perfect, yes it take a bit the control of the player, but where is the usefulness for the MGs if they are just to be used like any other semi auto rifle/assault rifle? Where is the realistic usage for this weapon? MG are not means to target a single enemy with rifleman tactics like in CoD. (And this game is NOT CoD)

 

[LemoN]

It is indeed a valid tactic in DH because it works.

What I am saying is that this in no way reflects the opinion that suppression prevents a person from firing back. In fact, even when suppressed in DH, my first reaction is to exploit the suppression mechanic to gain the upper hand in a suppression battle.

Just like when you have an SMG duel in close quarters in DH it's all about who can put out more FWAPS per second.

You said it was a valid tactic, and on that note, I hope that you're not going to try and contradict that by saying that suppression discourages return fire from suppressed persons.

Which is rather realistic.

IRL there is two "stages" of suppression.

1: suppress the enemy to a degree that it can't return accurate fire.
2: suppress the enemy to a degree that they don't even stick their heads out any more.

Both types can be seen in DH.

The natural thing to do if you get fired upon and suppressed is take cover, slightly relocate and try to suppress the enemy yourself.

 

[VariousNames]

Which is rather realistic.

IRL there is two "stages" of suppression.

1: suppress the enemy to a degree that it can't return accurate fire.
2: suppress the enemy to a degree that they don't even stick their heads out any more.

Both types can be seen in DH.

The natural thing to do if you get fired upon and suppressed is take cover, slightly relocate and try to suppress the enemy yourself.

In the case of DH, as Zets confirmed, it is a viable tactic to simply shoot back to suppress your enemy. Then you have a little suppression battle. No relocation required. Relocation is never required. That was my point. While under heavy fire, and suppression effects spamming, you can still suppress your enemy right back by shooting near them, causing their cone of fire to deviate.

Regarding the "stages" of suppression.... suppose I was under a misapprehension. I supposed that the idea was to suppress someone to the point where they found keeping their head out to be pointless by the artificial suppression mechanic making them incapable of returning fire.

And, granted the case I'm referring to....i.e. simply suppressing your attacker so that there is no actual danger of getting hit (both targets spray increasingly more erratically at each other), it seems to me that stage 2 of suppression is only being achieved by people not clever enough to realize they can just spam bullets right back at the offender and not be in any real danger.

 

[Erich]

Erich, it doesnt matter to me if someone is a soldier or not, whether they are a paper pusher, a truck driver or part of a Stryker unit.. as soon as that person uses a term like 'realistic flow of battle' (read: I want you to play how I want you to play) they've lost my attention.

Your argument is just as biased, you are trying to get people to play the way you want the game to play(aka RO stock suppression) and I like a toned down and refined DH style. You just essentially said that if someone wants something different than you, that you just don't listen and lose your "attention".

 

[Zetsumei]

text

If we call suppression in the game the effect of having difficulties aiming when bullets fly within 1 meter or your character. If someone then trough a form of effort can still counter suppress the enemy or even kill him than its ok.

As always I want to make it harder to return accurate fire, and not impossible. The situation you describe mostly happens in close range combat in DH though where even though you are being suppressed you can often still kill the enemy. Whereas at long ranges it might even be hard to return shots within a meter of the enemies distance. And that is exactly what I would like to see myself.

It means that through practise and experience you can overcome the worst severity of suppression just like some soldiers can during combat. But that the average inability to return accurate fire gets drawn closer to reality.

 

[VariousNames]

Your argument is just as biased, you are trying to get people to play the way you want the game to play(aka RO stock suppression) and I like a toned down and refined DH style. You just essentially said that if someone wants something different than you, that you just don't listen and lose your "attention".

I'mma not gonna lie. I am biased to the extent that I rather prefer the "aiming" aspect to Red Orchestra. The part that requires you to pick your shots, control your recoil, and minimize weapon sway.

I'm not necessarily partial to the hipblazer Pa-Pa-Sha approach.

What you're encouraging, and we see this in Darkest Hour, is spray and pray gameplay. It's what you see in action every time you boot up DH. That kind of gameplay renders in true color the fear of logistics personnel everywhere when they pondered the notion of excessive ammo expenditure from semi-automatic firearms.

Now that's my bias. Now you know.

 

[VariousNames]

If we call suppression in the game the effect of having difficulties aiming when bullets fly within 1 meter or your character. If someone then trough a form of effort can still counter suppress the enemy or even kill him than its ok. As always I want to make it harder to return accurate fire, and not impossible.

It means that through practise and experience you can overcome the worst severity of suppression just like some soldiers can during combat. They key is finding the most optimal default suppression effect amounts through testing.

Presumably the only way a soldier is going to overcome a physical reaction to gunfire is by overcoming the reaction, anticipating it, and dampening it. It ain't gonna be done through fenangling around and muscling your gun into a location before you go into flinch spasms again.

Seriously. If this is a serious psychological reaction, you can't just muscle your way through that. It takes a psychological approach.

That's part of why this whole idea of a suppression "system" bothers me. It requires you to muscle your way through a bunch of reactions pitted against you by the computer.

 

[Erich]

I'mma not gonna lie. I am biased to the extent that I rather prefer the "aiming" aspect to Red Orchestra. The part that requires you to pick your shots, control your recoil, and minimize weapon sway.

I'm not necessarily partial to the hipblazer Pa-Pa-Sha approach.

What you're encouraging, and we see this in Darkest Hour, is spray and pray gameplay. It's what you see in action every time you boot up DH. That kind of gameplay renders in true color the fear of logistics personnel everywhere when they pondered the notion of excessive ammo expenditure from semi-automatic firearms.

Now that's my bias. Now you know.

I don't see it that way. My experiences with DH do not express what you just wrote. I still see people firing aimed shots. And I still see "spray and pay" gunplay in the regular RO.

What I do see in DH is the increase in suppression which leads to others taking more aimed and proper shots. What I see is closer to the reality of warfare, both modern and WWII. Believe it or not soldiers fire a lot of ammo without hitting anyone, its just the nature of the beast.

 

[Zetsumei]

Seriously. If this is a serious psychological reaction, you can't just muscle your way through that. It takes a psychological approach.

That's part of why this whole idea of a suppression "system" bothers me. It requires you to muscle your way through a bunch of reactions pitted against you by the computer.

The thing is how can you use someone's mind to adapt for it in a gmae, think of anything that uses purely your mind. In game you cannot feel where you get hit so you have some doll displaying it for you. You have your mouse and keyboard as input and your screen as output that's.

I'd love it to plug some kind of a cable into everybody's heads but that's not a possibility. Heck if as output you could give someone a 30 volt shock every time he got hit you probably wouldn't need any suppression effect.

 

[VariousNames]

What I do see in DH is the increase in suppression which leads to others taking more aimed and proper shots. What I see is closer to the reality of warfare, both modern and WWII. Believe it or not soldiers fire a lot of ammo without hitting anyone, its just the nature of the beast.

Explain to me how the increase in suppression leads to an increase in aimed shots.

I don't believe you, by the way. Couldn't possibly. I've played the game.

Notable, also, that the people who spray and pray in RO are the noobs. Skilled players don't fire generally in someone's general direction because there's no suppression system to exploit.

 

[LemoN]

Notable, also, that the people who spray and pray in RO are the noobs. Skilled players don't fire generally in someone's general direction because there's no suppression system.

Fixed.

Firing in the general direction is what is being taught in any modern army.

Ever heard of firing drills?
Rapid fire for rifleman 1-2-shot, 1-2-shot, etc.
aimed fire: 1-2-3-4-5-shot, 1-2-3-4-5-shot, etc.
Same goes for machineguns with 1-3 second bursts instead of one shot.

There is a reason for this, and it is called suppression.

 

[Erich]

Explain to me how the increase in suppression leads to an increase in aimed shots.

I don't believe you, by the way. Couldn't possibly. I've played the game.

Notable, also, that the people who spray and pray in RO are the noobs. Skilled players don't fire generally in someone's general direction because there's no suppression system to exploit.

haha ok you don't believe me but its my experience, I too play the game, played RO and every mod for it for a long long time.

With the increase in suppression with MGs the enemy is more likely fixed in a location and then other team members with rifles can maneuver or just take their time placing well aimed shots. You know kinda like reality.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Recoil = taking away control from the player?
Weapon sway = taking away control from the player?
Slight weapon inaccuracy = taking away control from the play?

which is why most of the people using the "taking away control from the player" have not suggested the use of those mechanisms.

Suppression through details instead of fake mechanics = suppression without taking away control from the player - everybody happy.

Look at this list and tell me that it won't be effective at suppressing people (items in bold by Zets):

- Penetration of the bullets
- Smoke and Dirt coming up from bullet impacts around you (with possibility of getting in your eye). (larger caliber kicks up more dirt)
- Less visible emitters (tracers, muzzle flashes) when getting blur (to make locating someone firing at you harder)
- Reducing the popup firing ability of people
- Loud supersonic bullet cracks
- A slight blur

the above is the best example i can find in the (how many?) threads discussing this topic

 

[REZ]

We all understand what you guys want.. but slapping some punishing, fake mechanic over the top of things in hopes it will make people play how you want them to is the wrong road to take. Twitching guns are fake. Twitching doesnt really happen. If a soldier is aiming downrange and a bullet passes close by, his gun doesnt jump off the point he was aiming at.

If what you want is to simply make it harder to return accurate fire while being fired upon, then revisit the more realistic suggestions made in this thread, and you will see... they will accomplish what you want without slapping on this fake suppression effect.

1. Make the machine guns more accurate. (probably the most effective change right here)
2. Unalign the Iron Sights, therefore making it harder to make snap shots.
3. Make it so the Iron Sight point isnt always in the same place so as to stop pre-aiming. (2 & 3 work together to make it harder to return instant accurate fire)
4. Penetration.
5. Louder cracks/hornet buzz as bullets pass by.
6. More impact visuals as bullets land near you.
7. Less visable tracers and muzzle flashes (heck, remove them altogether on day maps).

All of these are solutions of a real nature that will cause more suppression as you define it. Adding a fake mechanic is just adding a fake mechanic that will cause frustration more than anything. Why add something that doesnt really happen irl?

You just essentially said that if someone wants something different than you, that you just don't listen and lose your "attention".

No, that isnt what I was saying. Let me paraphrase an ex-vietnam vet family member.. "when the sh*t hits the fan, the sh*t hits the fan.. any soldier who speaks of 'realistic flow of battle' has never been in battle."