Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?

[Phantomspiker]

Here is the problem with the proposed perk, there will always be a better alternative. For close range the Dual HCs will be out classed by the Scar and AA12 in the later waves. And the M14 and Xbow will outclass the revolver when it comes to taking on scrakes or FPs. To me this perk has "mediocre" written all over it.

 

[Zeptorem]

I already said it: Handcannon has too many flaws to be a tier 3 weapon. It's doable, I'll admit, but they'd be crippled.

Please, explain what these flaws are. I'm immensely curious if you can come up with something other than "damage" (which could be changed in a few minutes by a dev.

Damage wise, in real life, they are not only on par, but stronger.

The S&W Model 500 being the only real example, and even then the wound cavitation from .500 S&W is a pretty much a clean hole straight through; no yawing or fragmentation, and with FMJs, no expansion either. All that energy goes to waste if it just flies straight through the target.

Even then, energy transfer isn't proportionate to wound potential. The only thing that matters is the hole the bullet creates, and assault rifles win over pistols hands-down.

Some even are more accurate than a few assault rifles.

If shot from a bench rest, maybe, but offhand I doubt even a match-grade pistol would approach even the most hideously inaccurate assault rifle.

Sure, they only carry six bullets on it's barrel, but each one has four times the destructive power an assault rifle bullet has.

Only if you're shooting cinderblocks. With soft target it's an entirely different ballgame.

Even then, assuming you aren't knocked unconscious by the pistol flying back into your forehead, lining up the next shot would take eons.

It isn't "not playing", but not around to help. If you want to help a medic, or a firebug, or a zerker, with any other perk, you'll have to pick your enemies ('cept SS, but... you know what I'll say), and depending on what you're carrying, you may fail to assist properly. This perk would be the ultimate assisting class, being able to handle EVERYTHING, and while perks that focus on one range will do better, GS can help.

This is starting to sound suspiciously like Commando...

IIRC, nowadays revolvers (like, I dunno, S&W .500) have advanced technology, including rubber grips, and recoil reducers.

I can't help but laugh at this "advanced" technology...

They are produced to absorb part of it's recoil.

Sorry, there's still Newton's laws to contend with. The rubber grip is just to reduce the "sharpness" of the recoil; IE, so your hand doesn't feel like it's been beaten with a hammer after a few rounds. Even with the "recoil reducer" (a compensator), felt recoil is still proportionate to the kinetic energy of the bullet.

They also have speed loaders, that make reloading almost as fast as reloading a regular magazine.

Sorry, not even close. Steps involved in reloading a revolver:

- Release cylinder.
- Swing out cylinder.
- Eject empties.
- Push in speed loader.
- Detach speed loader from cartridges.
- Close cylinder.

Wheras an autoloader is:

- Press mag release.
- Push in new mag.

Revolvers are the Homo neanderthalensis to the autoloader's Homo sapiens.

The balance would rely on giving a few disadvantages to compensate for it's power.

Believe me, revolvers have more than enough disadvantages already...

(What is wrong with this graph:
Commandos can't handle FPs nor scrakes;

I can quite easily decap a scrake on hard with a SCAR with less than a magazine, and I'm only a level 3 Commando. It can lay down a lot of damage on the FP too, despite its resistance to bullets. It's just a matter of keeping the dot on its head.

Berserkers can handle scrakes fairly easily;

This is true, in retrospect I should've had it overlap with Support a bit more.

Firebugs aren't that limited;

In my experience, attempting to take on anything meaner than a bloat will usually result in a first-class dicking or, at the very least, a huge expenditure of ammo.

Demos can handle big stuff at longer range, but fail against scrakes;

Not really, each grenade does 350 damage before perk modifiers, and even the "lowly" husk has 600 health before playercount and difficulty bonuses. You're just wasting grenades on anything tougher than a gorefast. The whole point of grenade launchers is low on-target damage but lots of splash to take out crowded enemies.

I did forget to consider pipe bombs though, but again, that would just overlap with berserker and support.

SS should cover the whole graph.

I didn't feel like being that mean.

Yes, you said it's purely demonstrative, but these are BIG flaws.)

Well, with that said, GS would fill the hole left from Commando's correction, while "invading" some of it's space. It would reach all the way to what Support handles, and go, as far as range is concerned, a little further than that weird dot alone in demo's territory. That's for revolver and HC. 9mm would take down the lesser zeds (up to gorefast) beginning where 'zerker ends, and going up to that 3-man land.

Fair enough, but is a whole class based around weapons very similar to the sharpshooter's totally necessary? Why not just adjust the class perk bonuses or weapon stats to fill any perceived holes?

"Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."

I'd draw it, but I don't have the patience to do it right now. You are allowed to wait for an edit soon ;D

No problem. This debate is just starting to get heated enough to be interesting and not just a "everyone agrees with each other"-fest like most other topics on Ideas and Suggestions but civil enough to not get locked or distract from the topic at hand...

Oh, wait. bswearer wants to join the party!

Zeptorem

if you waited all that time to go back to flaming the OP just so you could make a fancy little graph, that's a shame because your graph sucks.

Your words cut me, sir! Keep that sharp wit in your pocket where it belongs!

not only did you completely leave out a whole class in the medic,

Are you seriously suggesting that the medic is even remotely a combat class? Where exactly would I put it? In the special "it's only supposed to be healing, it's not a ****ing combat class" zone?

none of your visual representations are even accurate.

Would our resident expert care to point out how they're inaccurate?

if you don't like the idea, then you have no reason to keep posting.

And it only took two pages for someone to play the "I should be insulated from all criticism" card! And right before the "I'll ignore your criticisms of the idea and claim they're personal attacks" card:

it's very difficult to find anything constructive in any of your posts here. you're mearly attacking the OP and pretty much anyone that speaks in support of any part of the idea.

Did you forget the part where I questioned the validity of adding a whole new class without considering what currently-unfilled niche it would actually occupy? Or why a whole class based around defensive, secondary weapons makes any sense at all? Or my assertion that the desert eagle is perfectly adequate as a tier-3 weapon?

No, ignore all that. I suppose the sum-total of thought you put into my criticism can be expressed with "your graph sucks".

 

[omarfw]

 

[Psuedo]

Zeptorum, The Deagle is a dull, plain, and severely overused weapon in FPS games. It doesn't NEED to be tier 3 just because it can. I would prefer anything over a boring deagle. I personally despise the way companies like Valve tends to worship the things.

And these guys are buying weapons from a woman who has crates filled with munitions from who knows where. The only weapons they have at the beginning are a berreta and a combat knife.

So seriously, stop trying to make this game photorealistic. Regardless of whether the millitary (Who did not supply these guys) uses them or not, Revolvers are way more badass looking than Deagles and I'd rather have a cool weapon for tier 3 than a dull one.

 

[brphoenix]

Zeptorem

if you waited all that time to go back to flaming the OP just so you could make a fancy little graph, that's a shame because your graph sucks. not only did you completely leave out a whole class in the medic, none of your visual representations are even accurate.

if you don't like the idea, then you have no reason to keep posting. it's very difficult to find anything constructive in any of your posts here. you're mearly attacking the OP and pretty much anyone that speaks in support of any part of the idea. if you don't like it so much, you could always create 100 more user accounts and submit 100 more "NO" votes.

brphoenix

this is still the best and most developed perk suggestion that's been posted. coming from a guy who falls for it all too often, just ignore his posts from now on. he's not worth it.

While I don't approve his way of replying (most of the times, anyways), he IS doing constructive criticism. He is asking critical questions (granted, some of what he asks isn't that important) that concern general gameplay, and other problems regarding the perk.

Sure, not a single one of the perks are perfect. But this one has a few extra flaws the others don't.

But thanks anyway



@Zeptorem:

Here are a compilation of HCs flaws:

• Small clip (8 rounds compared to M14's 20, SCAR's 25, Katana's infinite [melee], AA12 with 20, M32 with 6, though a LOT more powerful);
• No spare ammo (Only M32 has this problem too);
• No helpful aiming assists (M14 has laser sight, SCAR and M32 have red dot, AA12 doesn't need one);
• Same power as others (deals roughly as much damage as M14 and SCAR per bullet);
• No ironsights AT ALL when dual wielding (which is the penalty for doing so);

I believe handcannon could apply for GS's tier 3, though it'd need considerable attention. More spare ammo (5 clips is far from enough) and higher damage (raising it by 2x is good) are the changes it'd need, and an increase in price would go too.

And as for tier 2 weapon? Automatic pistol? Would feel way too Commando-y to me :/

That's why I prefer adding a revolver. It's less work for the devs (true, changing a weapon's properties may not be hard to do, but whatever), and would add to the perk's "niche", that would be it's versatility.

 

[Psuedo]

No matte how hard I try I can't get my posts onto this forum. Anyway If this actually manages to show up I'd like to just point out that I added to the post I made earlier.

If you're going to argue for something, can you at least consider that KF already has 2 common handguns while it has a very diverse arsenal in most other departments. Zeptorum, can you at least consider trying to bring something unique into the secondary slot instead of taking weapons that have been in every FPS ever?

 

[Temstar]

There are actually very good reasons why Tier 3 should be a revolver and not handcannon. Revolvers are by the virtue of their design able to handle higher chamber pressure than semi-automatic pistols. In fact the whole reason why Desert Eagle is able to handle .50AE is because it uses a robust rifle style gas operation instead of the normal recoil operation, hence why it has an unusual slide.

Even then, .50AE is not all that large compared to some of the rounds a large frame revolver can fire. And no S&W500 is by no means the only such large frame revolver, of the top of my head I can think of two others: Taurus Raging Bull and Colt Anaconda

 

[Madhate969]

Plus with a new revolver they can make it non dual wield, with little complain and then possible adjust the HC down. rather than have HC as tier 3 and the tier 2 gun not be able to carry 2. It would be odd to have the middle be the only one you cannot carry 2 of, and it has less ammo, less power, longer reload, it would need a gimmic to make it worth anything in the middle

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

omar wins for the award for most accurate diagram!

 

[red7204]

Along with the tank buster and gunslinger these seem to close to existing perks.

What about just affecting different attributes of the current perks at higher levels. Like blast radius, carrying more ammo/extra weapon slot/ maybe add night vision to ss or support

The tank buster defeats itself. A ss lvl 6 can kill a fp in two hits with a crossbow, if the tank buster doesn't kill a fp in one hit whats the point of it. Besides the suggested weapons are slow firing and meant to set up and defend.
The gunslinger and tank buster is just like dividing up the sharpshooter and demolition.
Its like taking sharpshooter and making it two classes one for pistols and one for rifles. Tank buster weapons don't really have a need in this game.
A ss can kill a scrake in one hit with a crossbow so what would be the point of carrying a boys at rifle. Fp can be killed in two crossbow hits.

 

[brphoenix]

So, I made a few charts. Don't know if they are accurate (or even understandable), but...

This is the first one. It represents how perks handle different zeds:

Now, this one is more of an assumption. If TWI decides to nerf Sharpshooter by removing laser sights from the M14, and solves its spam problem, here's how it would probably look.
Oh, I added the Gunslinger perk in the middle, too. If you see, there's a spot that was left blank by SS's nerfing. He fills it.

(keep in mind that I made this at 3h30 AM, so if it's not understandable, sorry :/)

 

[Bio666]

Demo kills fp at melee range? Clearly you need more sleep...

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

Demo kills fp at melee range? Clearly you need more sleep...

i think that might be trying to reflect the effectiveness of pipebombs when placed close to the team/player.


surprisingly, that chart actually is pretty accurate. because of the color mixes, it took me a little while to realize that the blob that fills the entire "long" column is the demo...i was like what the hell class did that color represent???

i'm assuming that the chart is based off of handling specimen with each perk's designated tiered weapons.

the firebug really could stretch all the way down to the bottom to include clot/crawler/gorefasts/sirens but should not at all fill the husk section.....anyone who's tried to take down a husk with a flamethrower before should know it takes FOREVER to kill one with fire.....it's not really that effective killing husks even though it's great about surviving against them.

also, the medic really should be in there since it is an actual class. although it's killing ability is limited, from melee they can take out clots/gorefasts easily with the knife, and from short to medium can handle clots/crawlers/gorefasts/bloats with the mp7.

even without the EBR, the SS can literally still fill the entire grid except for melee. you're first SS representation was spot on regardless of the EBR.

of course the chart could also look differently if perks were using other class weapons, example would be medic with a crossbow....medics could take care of everything on there from all ranges. you've also got to look at the combination with the weapons within the various perk assignements....but all that would be too complicated and seriously not worth anyone's time

all in all though, a much better representation brphoenix. thanks!

OH and bio, i saw the giant vagina in zep's graph, right around the word "firebug".......what was it that you saw?

 

[robdude19]

So... it's basically a sharpshooter weapon then? Lots of damage in one shot over long range? Got it.

The SS specialty is headshots, not "lots of damage in one shot over long range." By your definition, the LAW, M32, and M79 would also be SS weapons.

Anyway, the long range capability of the S&W 500 would be limited because of its lack of aiming assists and very high recoil. If its iron sights were as bad as the handcannon's, it certainly wouldn't be good for headshots let alone compare to the xbow scope as a SS weapon. Body shots wouldn't drop everything either if it's close to my suggestion (around 250 dmg). Keep in mind that the xbow does well at long range because of headshots, whereas body shots only clear trash zeds despite doing a whopping 300 base dmg. You definitely wouldn't be getting headshots consistently with a handgun from long range so don't imply that the S&W 500 is a Sharpshooter weapon.

Wait, why would a double-action revolver with vastly more recoil fire faster than a heavy, single-action semi-automatic pistol fire?

I almost think this is a troll post. In my post (that you quoted), I said the S&W 500 would "empty faster" than the dual HC's. I didn't say "fire faster." The S&W has a 5-shot load compared to the dual HC's 16. So even with a slower fire rate, you could still "empty" the S&W much faster than the dual deagles. Right after that you quoted me as suggesting the S&W fire every .3 seconds. Strategy wiki shows the HC fire rate to be .25 sec or .13 sec (single/dual). [URL]http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Killing_Floor/Weapons[/URL]

Obviously you didn't take much time to think or do your homework before coming back with the quickest unsubstantiated bash you could whip up.

I'll ask for the fourth and final time: why not just adjust the desert eagle stats and perk bonuses to make it the tier-3 weapon and add a tier-2 weapon as the mid-point between the 9mm and the desert eagle? Someone, for the love of god, please answer this question.

This would be an option to make the GS perk, but without a new badass tier 3 weapon the "cool factor" would be greatly reduced. Most players love the hi tech guns, such as the AA12, SCAR, M14, M32, etc. It only makes sense to add the latest revolver tech as long as it's balanced in game.

On a practical level, Dual Handcannons only weigh 4, so if it were buffed, a lot more non-GS players would use it. You might suggest making the deagle heavier, but if you go there you're basically creating the S&W 500 I've been suggesting, except having it do less dmg while being dual-weildable. All this tinkering with the deagle would seem much more contrived than creating a new tier 3 handgun from scratch.

Why does a pistol have to be on-par with an assault rifle? They're essentialy secondary weapons in Killing Floor, I still don't see why we need a whole class around them.

They're secondary weapons because the S&W 500 isn't in the game already. The S&W is actually used to hunt big game like moose and buffalo as well as bear protection. It could probably drop a friggin elephant with a few shots. I don't think anyone would question its legitimacy as a primary weapon. If it were added along with the Gunslinger perk bonuses, the deagles and 9mm's would be the GS lower tier weapons much like the AK/bullpup etc.

So, it's a class based around the possibility that other people might not be playing two of the most popular existing classes? Why? WHY?!

As I said before the perk would have the unique ability to fire and reload guns continuously by alternating between each hand, thereby putting out a continuous stream of firepower with no reload interruptions. It would also be a speedy run-and-gunner for the occasional teammate in need of help, and possibly a good last-man kiter alternative to the medic. It would also be fun to give handguns their own perk since a lot of people love handguns. It would also be a logical step in nerfing the sharpshooter (removing handgun boosts). ***He could put out MORE DAMAGE before reloading than ANY other perk (because of his 9mm boost).*** Do the math, add up the damage per clip numbers:

---Total base damage without reloading---
Gunslinger (S&W 500-Dual HC-Dual 9mm): 1250+1680+900 = 3830
Sharpshooter (M14-LAR): 2140+1250 = 3390 (if pistol boosts are removed)
Commando (SCAR-AK47): 1600+1200 = 2800
Support (AA12-hunting shotgun): 3000+450 = 3450

Sharpshooter numbers would put out total DPS less due to slow fire rate of LAR. I could calculate total DPS without reloading but maybe later. Gunslinger could possibly have another skill like siren resistance, although this needs work. I thought maybe faster fire rate would be cool, but that's too Commando-y. The quick draw/weapon swap would help for putting out high damage quickly without reloading.

 

[Bio666]

Demo should be able to kill clots from high range equally to commando.

OH and bio, i saw the giant vagina in zep's graph, right around the word "firebug".......what was it that you saw?

I hereby certificate bswearer the graduation of ... 5th grade. You are so innocent.

But that was quite close. Look up a bit more, notice commando's zone, and you'll see a verbal definition of "penetration"

 

[robdude19]

The S&W Model 500 being the only real example, and even then the wound cavitation from .500 S&W is a pretty much a clean hole straight through; no yawing or fragmentation, and with FMJs, no expansion either. All that energy goes to waste if it just flies straight through the target.

Even then, energy transfer isn't proportionate to wound potential. The only thing that matters is the hole the bullet creates, and assault rifles win over pistols hands-down.

There are more ways to do internal damage than bullet ricochet, fragmentation or expansion effects. There are youtube videos of people blowing up watermelons and rows of water jugs with the S&W 500. Granted they don't have the same viscosity as human organs but the fact remains that the 500 Mag rounds apply a lot of energy transfer perpendicular to the flight path. A 2600 ft-lb. bullet would create a massive amount of internal hemorrhaging regardless of the entry/exit holes.

 

[Bio666]

There are more ways to do internal damage than bullet ricochet, fragmentation or expansion effects. There are youtube videos of people blowing up watermelons and rows of water jugs with the S&W 500. Granted they don't have the same viscosity as human organs but the fact remains that the 500 Mag rounds apply a lot of energy transfer perpendicular to the flight path. A 2600 ft-lb. bullet would create a massive amount of internal hemorrhaging regardless of the entry/exit holes.

Hang on, I had a better theory for that one.

FP is quite "muscular", due to the fact that they are [insert some sci-fi here] altered to be super solder. Their body therefore much be more "density", "harder" etc. You got the idea.

That causes the bullet to deal more damage?

And also there is some effect call "hydrashock" or something that cause damage even on non-wounded part.

 

[Nibe]

EDIT: I AGREE THIS NEW PERK, ONLY IF THEY MAKE TR SKIN. Id love to see TR killing Fleshpounds with double pistols

Hang on, I had a better theory for that one.

FP is quite "muscular", due to the fact that they are [insert some sci-fi here] altered to be super solder. Their body therefore much be more "density", "harder" etc. You got the idea.

That causes the bullet to deal more damage?

And also there is some effect call "hydrashock" or something that cause damage even on non-wounded part.

JHP bullets are made to loose their power, when they hit target. FMJ bullet is made for piercing. That's why JHP (Jacketed hollow point?) are designed to "spread" when they hit something. Human body is full of water and bullet creates shock waves, what goes around your body, making damage to soft tissue. That's why entry wound is smaller and the exit is huge. And the shock waves damage your tissue, far from wound.

 

[Reddog]

Damage wise, in real life, they are not only on par, but stronger. Some even are more accurate than a few assault rifles.

There is no way a pistol with a 6-8" barrel will be able to compete with any 14-20" barreled modern assault rifle in terms of accuracy. Show me hard proof of this and I'll video myself eating my shoes and post it on youtube.

You really shouldn't post things like that if you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Temstar]

"The M16 came from the factory capable of 3–4 MOA accuracy"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16#Accuracy

"The MK23 is considered a match grade pistol, and is capable of making a 2-inch (51 mm) group at 50 yards (46 m), roughly 4 MOA."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_Mark_23

Your average AK-47 would score about 4 MOA too, given that it's not quite as accurate as M16. So pistols can certainly compete with rifles for accuracy, at least at shorter ranges.