Branching within Perks: Secondary roles

[BEEEEEES]

What originally started as a reply to this thread really got me thinking deeper, and figured it might be interesting to go up for discussion.
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Well, I'll say apart from any context, the Thermal Lance does sound really nifty.

You could supposedly turn it on and wave it back n' forth to crowd melt at a point-blank range, and it could believably do enough dps to matter against heavy targets.

Now I'm sure there'll be a lot of moaning and groaning about how it doesn't fit the current low-damage, wide-area crowd control of the firebug, but so what?

I personally think it'd be pretty cool to introduce some distinct branching variation within perks themselves into different roles/styles of play. It's already in the game, to some extent:

• perks using weapons not within their spec, like a Firebug picking up a Katana or a demo picking up a shotgun, or...
• like the difference between choosing a bullpup or the AK as a commando
• the hunting shotgun's extreme burst damage vs the shotgun's more measured, sustained output

The Firebug with a Flamethrower has superior crowd-control over a wide area/distance, but sacrifices raw single-target dps and is hence a weaker match against heavy zeds; the Firebug with the Thermal Lance sacrifices the superior crowd-control at-a-distance of the Flamethrower, but gains strength against heavier targets. He doesn't have the highest DPS in the game with the Thermal Lance, but the difference between it and the Flamethrower is significant.

In this way, perks could be vividly differentiated by being the best at this or that in terms of the core roles they play- just as they are now- but within perks themselves you gain additional flexibility that can be used to satisfy personal choice or help round out a team.

 

[Bio666]

- Differences between ak commando and bullpup commando? The gun itself enough to make a difference already.

-Differences between perk use unintended weapon? penalties. If you want to use THAT gun, try THAT perk.

I see no reason to imply this.

 

[Temstar]

I've always felt that TWI have been trying to achieve this result with tier 2 weapons that are very different from tier 1 primary guns. For example a LAR/M14 sharpshooter plays very differently from a crossbow sharpshooter.

Hence with I suggest new weapons I usually follow this rule:
Tier 2 weapon for a class should offer something unique, something totally different from their tier 1 primary gun
Tier 3 weapon for a class should be an enhanced version of the orthodox tier 1 gun.

 

[No_Usernames_Here]

Hence with I suggest new weapons I usually follow this rule:
Tier 2 weapon for a class should offer something unique, something totally different from their tier 1 primary gun
Tier 3 weapon for a class should be an enhanced version of the orthodox tier 1 gun.

Perfect summary of a point I explored somewhat in-depth in a previous Medic-moar-gun thread:

THE BALANCE OF TIERS
I have so far observed that, in Killing Floor, all tiers of weapons fulfill a perks given role adequately. The tier 2 weapons are more powerful overall than their tier 1 counterparts, but both weapons are different enough to warrant circumstances where both find more use than the other. The tier 3 weapons are more powerful than the tier 2 weapons and are straight upgrades to the tier one weapons, creating the same relation between the tier 1&2 weapons but in reverse. Granted, this failed somewhat in certain cases (commando weapons) but it's a balance goal to aspire to. One of the best examples, I feel, is the (*cough*completely Imba*cough*) Sharpshooter weapons.

All the SS weapons fulfill the SS's role: Laying out tough monsters that come in small numbers quickly and efficiently (even if Sharpshooters deal a little too well with crowds... but that's another discussion). Now, the Crossbow is, overall and IMO, more powerful than the Lever Action. However, given that the Lever Action has a faster RoF and more ammo, it's better when dealing with greater amounts of weaker specimens and less likely to get overrun with, while the Crossbow is able to put bruisers like Fleshpounds and Scrakes down in one hit, something the Lever Action can't attest to.

The M14 is basically a more powerful version of the Lever Action in terms of gameplay. It has all the benefits of the Lever action in terms of increased mobility, faster RoF, and more ammo, but to a greater extent and has that nifty laser-dot sight for even better mobility, but is still incapable of taking out FPs and Scrakes in no time flat. Hence, it is more powerful than the Crossbow but the Crossbow has it's niche.

 

[Shambler]

I'd prefer weapons that slip in-between perks types. Like the LAW right now can be effectively used buy other the demo or the support but with different bonuses. The thermal lance might be the same deal but for the firebug and the zerker with a bit of thought.

 

[Temstar]

Even for commando the tier 2 side grade effect is there. SCAR is very much an upgraded Bullpup as both have reflex sight and encourages accurate mid to long range rifleman skills using semi-auto fire (Bullpup because it's lack of firepower encourages you to go for headshots, SCAR because of the intense recoil on full auto).

AK-47 on the other hand encourages a commando to fight it out on full auto at mid to short range, almost in the kind of range support specialist fights at. AK-47 does this by giving you enough firepower to bring down specimens with only body shots, and yet offer controllable enough recoil on full auto. It's iron sight also discourages very long range fight vs reflex sight.

 

[omarfw]

im getting horrible backflashes of rappelz all of a sudden...

 

[[MtK]StenO]

The iron sight doesn't discourage anything, you just have to learn how to use it. Granted, it's not easier to headshot with it than a SCAR or Bullup, but it's fine. Also, learn how to headshot with it at the hip. Watch that nifty Commando tutorial video on YouTube. I'm already doing what he's doing in terms of shooting.

 

[CandleJack]

AK-47 on the other hand encourages a commando to fight it out on full auto at mid to short range, almost in the kind of range support specialist fights at. AK-47 does this by giving you enough firepower to bring down specimens with only body shots, and yet offer controllable enough recoil on full auto. It's iron sight also discourages very long range fight vs reflex sight.

Though assuming you're good enough at aiming, almost any Iron Sight will do for sniping.

 

[Madhate969]

I have to completely disagree with with the above quote in 2 ways.

I think people that are just using random guns get enough penlty becuase they are stupid, or are out of ammo, and using a random gun they picked up, either way, sucks to be them.

-or-

they have gotten lvl 6 in a perk and want to use that to help them get the hang of this new perk. Last night me and a friend switched and I played commando and he played SS, he got a better reload speed on his lever action, and could see health bars/stalkers. I got head shot damage increase with the AK, and a head shot habit, so it worked out. We worked hard to get our level 6, no reason we cannot use that work to help with our second level 6.

On topic, I think its an intresting idea I'd like to try

 

[Foxyfired]

- Differences between ak commando and bullpup commando? The gun itself enough to make a difference already.

-Differences between perk use unintended weapon? penalties. If you want to use THAT gun, try THAT perk.

I see no reason to imply this.

yes, if i am commando with ak + scar i have 12/15 block also why not have pipe or katana ? imagine the firebug....just a flammtower lol and then....

 

[Madhate969]

true as support I'll have shotty, hunting shotty and grab a pipe bomb (one day i'll get demo leveled)

 

[Bio666]

I think people that are just using random guns get enough penlty becuase they are stupid, or are out of ammo, and using a random gun they picked up, either way, sucks to be them.

THAT's exactly what I meant when I said "penalties". Less damage, less ammo, etc.

And it works okay. I see no reason to encourage ppl to play with non-perk weapon

EXCEPT one case:

Sharpshooter. Currently, ss have 50% extra headshot damage, combine with the headshot machine aka bullpup/scar, ss can do the same damage as a commando lv 6 about 90% of all time. WHY?