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Aim-FOV/Zoom & IFF [Long]

Hoak

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 1, 2006
214
110
While this topic was approached with respect to Red Orchestra when it went from being a mod to 'Ostfront 41-45' the commercial product, there was considerable dissent (and ensuing histrionics), and I thought it would be worth broaching the topic again for the new title -- as it was among several pivotal design changes from Mod to commercial product that had a significant effect on Red Orchestra's game-play and appeal for some Players that didn't have to be 'exclusive'...


Pixel Resolution & View Distance

Display pixel resolution severely curtails View Distance in games (not to be confused with 'Draw-Distance'); even at higher end of practical resolutions like 2560*1600 it is not possible identify a friendly player at even a fraction of the distance you can in the real world; in fact you can't even see and identify a 'man target' as the player models will appear a pixelated blob that can be anything at the same distance you could easily identify a person as someone you actually knew, what they were wearing and even carrying in the real world.

That most Gamers are playing at substantially lower resolutions then 2560*1600, lowers the bar further; if the Steam Hardware Survey is any indication 1280*1024 is the average resolution, or mean of the bell-curve with more then half of all Gamers on Steam playing at or below the resolution of 1280*1024. Obviously the Player with the higher resolution display has a considerable advantage, ie. he can see and or IFF the Player with the lower resolution display before he is seen...


Aim-FOV/Zoom & IFF

The only known means to resolving this to where a game or simulator can offer realistic view distance, range of engagement, and concomitant ranged fire-maneuver tactics is to offer some amount of change in FOV when a weapon is 'aimed', aka Aim-FOV/Zoom, or Aim-Zoom. In fact all infantry combat simulators do exactly this, as do nearly all serious tactical realism games, and even many action/arcade realism games.

While Aim-Zoom may not be as aesthetically realistic, the consequences of playing with forced -1.75 (or less) Diopter Myopia is far less realistic -- completely obviates realistic tactical maneuver and ranged firearms engagement which obviously in the case of simulators for tactical training would be a plate of baked fail...

Aim-Zoom was a part of Red Orchestra during most of its life as a Mod for Unreal Tournament 2003/4, and in the view of many worked and played very well. There were several server mutators and client side scripts that offered Aim-Zoom as an option -- the outcome where it was used was dramatically lower friendly-fire kills then what we see in RO and its mods today, realistic ranged combat was not only possible but practical, and the Mod sustained its Audience on a much broader range of maps then we've seen during the retail life of Red Orchestra...

Most Developers of serious tactical realism games and consumer simulators recognize the issue and also incorporate Aim-Zoom; from Rogue Spear, the Rainbow Six games, Ghost Recon, GRAW, Armed Assault, America's Army, Operation Flashpoint to the Brothers In Arms series -- even more arcade realism games like Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor incorporate Aim-Zoom to allow for more realistic ranged combat and tactics, and for a reduction in friendly fire kills...


Aesthetic Realism Vs. Functional Realism

Aesthetic Realism caters to making a game look, and/or feel as realistic as possible within the constraints of Engine and Artistic capability; this appears to be the reason that FOV scripting/mutator capability was removed from the commercial version of the game, i.e. some (or more specifically someone) felt it 'looked' unrealistic...

Functional Realism is more concerned with how a game or simulator 'plays' and solves issues of emulated realism like: are realistic tactics not only possible but do they consistently prevail, are weapons not only able to be employed realistically but are they practical used that way, and are they effective used as they would be used in the real world... In both cases, for Red Orchestra sans realistic View Distance via Aim-Zoom, the answer is 'not as much as was the case when you could see further', and 'no where near as much as some other games'...

Of course anyone wanting more realistic view distance in Red Orchestra and a substantial advantage can purchase the highest resolution display money can buy, and the expensive PC hardware required to drive it; but that's not a practical solution for everyone -- and the issues of compromised functional realism, balance, and fairness remain.

Modern game engines now easily allow for panamorphic, ananmorphic, linear, spherical and progressive zoom distortions that can be exploited for a much more subtle 'Zoom' effect that does not move at the boarders of the screen, or realistically exploits the 'pin hole' camera effect of aperture sights...


Game-Play

View-Distance has a substantial impact and consequence on how games are played, the vast majority of Red Orchestra: Ostfront '41-45 engagements, tactics employed, and kills occur at pistol ammunition range -- relegating all the draw distance and LSS render capability of the game to little more then superficial aesthetic eye-candy, and combat to a close range parody of real ranged fire-maneuver combat.

Another significant consequence for a game like Red Orchestra where the effective range of the weapons exceeds the Players ability to see to realistic scale distance; is a ridiculous number of friendly kills due to the inability to IFF (identify friend or foe)... In three hours of playing the Darkest Hour Mod for Red Orchestra I made an attempt to record total friendly-fire and enemy kills of all Players -- the results were conservative at over 40%, due to the fact that many unforgiven kills got counted as enemy kills.

This isn't just a questionable issue of game-play quality, it's also a good measure of how unrealistic IFF and view distance is effecting what may be an otherwise realistic game -- as even the most unskilled and poorly trained forces in WW II didn't have friendly-fire casualties anywhere approaching even half what you will typically see in a Red Orchestra game...

Even ignoring issues of functional realism, or realism in entire; there are the outstanding issues of game-play fairness; Players with higher resolution displays have a substantial advantage over a Player with a lower resolution -- and here even a small change in FOV Aim-Zom can markedly reduce the difference and bring things closer to balance.

Though the player with the higher resolution display will always maintain an advantage unless the effective range and accuracy of all weapons are nerfed to the effective range of sling-shots -- with Aim-FOV/Zoom all Players with high and low resolution displays will have IFF limits closer to the effective range of weapons with realistic metrics.


Summation

The facts are easy to measure, corroborate and speak for themselves... Obviously there are those that prefer aesthetic realism over functional realism, and many will prefer Red Orchestra 'as is', but, there is a substantial Audience that values more scale and functional realism, rather then less, and Aim-Zoom can not only take Red Orchestra a long ways in that direction, it solves other problems, and can easily be offered as a 'server-side option' that excludes no one, and gives everyone a choice in what they're looking for.

Red Orchestra and it's third party mods and maps now offer a considerable volume of ranged combat maps where this would make a tremendous difference in realism, playability, and appeal... I hope the power(s) that be at Tripwire will revaluate his position on aesthetic realism to the exclusion of functional realism, and at least consider offering an option -- this is one features of game design where popularity, perception, and realism converge.

 
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I couldn't agree with you more. Function should definately come first in this situation. I've heard it suggested elsewhere the option of a manual zoom...that is, when you first bring up your sights, you have normal aesthetically-correct vision, then you can press a key to zoom in at desire. This would also help in medium-range situations, where you want to sight-in to shoot someone, but still wish to have good peripheral vision in case an enemy come in on your flank. This is what I'd like to see in the game.
 
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Hoak, just to comment on one of your points:

If average engagement range is increased to at least 100-200 metres and a zoom function exists for lower resolutions, will not the average map areas increase in proportion? If there are larger maps, more players will be needed. Can the current technology run areas that large with these numbers that we have in mind?
 
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Aim-Zoom was a part of Red Orchestra during most of its life as a Mod for Unreal Tournament 2003/4, and in the view of many worked and played very well. There were several server mutators and client side scripts that offered Aim-Zoom as an option -- the outcome where it was used was dramatically lower friendly-fire kills then what we see in RO and its mods today, realistic ranged combat was not only possible but practical, and the Mod sustained its Audience on a much broader range of maps then we've seen during the retail life of Red Orchestra...

Bull****, name one mutator that did that, and on which of the 2 servers did it run again? DonD? certainly not.
There never was any form of aim-zoom, beside possibly a glitch allowing the player to switch his FOV clientside in any version from 1.0 onwards.
 
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Hoak, just to comment on one of your points:

If average engagement range is increased to at least 100-200 metres and a zoom function exists for lower resolutions, will not the average map areas increase in proportion?
I'm not sure what you mean; if you mean the map area required to play the game -- no, the only 'difference' is you can see a little further when aimed...

If there are larger maps, more players will be needed. Can the current technology run areas that large with these numbers that we have in mind?
Larger maps then already exist aren't necessary; there are plenty of very large scale RO maps that are only unpopular because they are regarded as playing poorly for the current popular (if you can call RO's current state of play popular) arcade run-&-gun tactics and game-play that consistently prevails now over more realistic tactics. The R&G Crowd perceives the large maps as requiring too much running 'to the action' and want their respawn 'to the fight' to be more immediate...

Seeing further makes for more realistic maneuver tactical combat where you: prone, aim, and scan before you move; then either cover a squad mate that's bounding, or displace to the next position of cover or concealment you've found safe to move to.

The discrepancy in aimed and unaimed view distance has a very nice scale effect with regard to the functional realism of maneuver combat and how STS games are actually played; when running you're a little more vulnerable as you can't see as far as they player that may have you in his sights ergo anyone trying to ambush you will have a view distance advantage -- the outcome is this puts pressure on Players to look, before they move, use cover and concealment, and support their team Mates with realistic bounding and cover fire tactics.

Bull****, name one mutator that did that, and on which of the 2 servers did it run again? DonD? certainly not.
There never was any form of aim-zoom, beside possibly a glitch allowing the player to switch his FOV clientside in any version from 1.0 onwards.
Scream, swear, kick your feet, and have as obnoxious a tantram as you like Pumpkin, it's a fact; Ramm removed the capability from a late build of the UT2004 iteration of the Mod; ask him. Previous to that you could enable Aim-Zoom right in your game RedOrchestra.ini file, but a few servers had an Aim-Zoom mutator for people that didn't know about it -- most didn't notice until it was gone.

:rolleyes:
 
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Scream, swear, kick your feet, and have as obnoxious a tantram as you like Pumpkin, it's a fact; Ramm removed the capability from a late build of the UT2004 iteration of the Mod; ask him. Previous to that you could enable Aim-Zoom right in your game RedOrchestra.ini file, but a few servers had an Aim-Zoom mutator for people that didn't know about it -- most didn't notice until it was gone.

:rolleyes:

ah, a d4v fact. You failed to answer what the mutator was and where it ran. Shouldnt be hard as you claimed there were several.
 
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ah, a d4v fact. You failed to answer what the mutator was and where it ran. Shouldnt be hard as you claimed there were several.
If you provide a complete list of ever server running Red Orchestra in March of 2004 I'd be glad to name a few that ran the mutator... In the mean time, flake off and troll off. You have nothing to add here, these aren't the droids you're looking for...

:rolleyes:
 
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IF there was a zoom... good that they took it out... and thank god that there are no zoom mutators for RO:OST... i really really hope TWI dont implant such stupid thing like zoom for ironsights...
and i think most tk happen thought nades and this "going-around-the-corner-aiming-and-shooting-as-soon-as-something-pops-into-your-sights"-situation so zoom wouldnt help you to prevent those situations. only (dont know for sure) maybe 5-10% of the tks are thoses IFF situations...
 
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IF there was a zoom... good that they took it out... and thank god that there are no zoom mutators for RO:OST... i really really hope TWI dont implant such stupid thing like zoom for ironsights...
and i think most tk happen thought nades and this "going-around-the-corner-aiming-and-shooting-as-soon-as-something-pops-into-your-sights"-situation so zoom wouldnt help you to prevent those situations. only (dont know for sure) maybe 5-10% of the tks are thoses IFF situations...

Ok, so maybe it wouldn't change the TK rate by much. Zoom (manual, not automatic) still needs to be incorporated to simulate realistic engagement ranges. The human eye has a much higher resolution (if you will) than a computer screen, and zoom would make up for that...making the game more realistic. And by manual, I mean that you would have to press a key for it. Zooming in as soon as you go to IS would make me cringe.
 
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zoom is and never will be realistic.. i dont have a zoom in my eyes...you can focus on an area and perceive more details and thats it.... "no 6-million-dollar eyes for RO soldiers!!!".... so while playing ro and having trouble see tragets in the distance.... just move your head closer to the display, helps me alot...

The thing is we have $0.49 eyes in RO. In real life we have much better vision, and RO should simulate that.
 
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zoom is and never will be realistic.. i dont have a zoom in my eyes...you can focus on an area and perceive more details and thats it.... "no 6-million-dollar eyes for RO soldiers!!!".... so while playing ro and having trouble see tragets in the distance.... just move your head closer to the display, helps me alot...
If you read the topic post, you'd know it's issue is functional realism vs. aesthetic realism; but I see you're '
 
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and people that dont have that 'skillz' are crying for " 'OPTIONS' for more functionally realistic game-play"

dude, if you want those feature so bad go and play arma or whatever game delivers you those 'OPTIONS' for more functionally realistic game-play...
RO should stay ro and not WW2-arma...

RO has its unique gameplay and feeling and it should stay like this... sure there going to be changes (bandaging, coversystem...)but i think TWI will know whats best for there new baby and zoom definitely isnt(not even a server option)...

"You have nothing to add here"
if you "block" every post that criticise your post you shouldnt post at all...
 
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and people that dont have that 'skillz' are crying for " 'OPTIONS' for more functionally realistic game-play"
We can test your premise any time you like.

dude, if you want those feature so bad go and play arma or whatever game delivers you those 'OPTIONS' for more functionally realistic game-play...
I do.

RO should stay ro and not WW2-arma...
The only person making comparisons to ArmA is you, no where have I said or even implied that RO should be like ArmA; it would be constructive if you'd at least make the mental effort to read what you're responding to. And when did you be come the 'Final Authority', or even a Authority on what RO 'should' be? So far all I see from you is trolling...

RO has its unique gameplay and feeling and it should stay like this...
Unique, you have to be kidding, RO in its current state is as derivative and unoriginal as it gets.

if you "block" every post that criticise your post you shouldnt post at all...
I haven't blocked any criticism, I'm not a Moderator, I don't have the means. If you mean counter-argue irrelevant, untrue, or poorly formed opinions with no basis in fact or experience; why should others have the right to 'criticise my post' but I in turn don't have the right to counter argue untrue, poorly presented, and provocative troll remarks?

:)
 
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i am going back in this thread see you claming there was zoom in the not worluk say no there wasnt, i believe worluk.. you know why... his name is known hes been in ro since i remember, hes a well know moder. so he know this game more than you do, and judging from you name(never ever heard of it) i put more weight in his word, than yours...



good, bye bye.


The only person making comparisons to ArmA is you, no where have I said or even implied that RO should be like ArmA; it would be constructive if you'd at least make the mental effort to read what you're responding to. And when did you be come the 'Final Authority', or even a Authority on what RO 'should' be?
oooww and you are a Authority??
never heard of you befor..

Final Authority
never said that i am the Final Authority or any Authority. and i know that TWI doesnt gives a f.ck about your or mine single opinion, and thank god for that.

So far all I see from you is trolling...
i know i know everyone that does not like you idea is torlling..

Unique, you have to be kidding, RO in its current state is as derivative and unoriginal as it gets.
that why it should have zoom (was never done befor) to make it more Unique...
if you dont like it so much go, go and never turn back.

all i am saying is i dont like the idea of "serverside zoom option" wasnt needed in RO:OST and i 'HOPE' it will not be in HOS.. and i am certainly not saying "since i am soooo 1337 in this game my word is law and it shell be done as i commend."

ok this was my last post in this topic, since arguing on the internet is like special olympis ...
 
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i am going back in this thread see you claming there was zoom in the not worluk say no there wasnt, i believe worluk.. you know why... his name is known hes been in ro since i remember, hes a well know moder. so he know this game more than you do, and judging from you name(never ever heard of it) i put more weight in his word, than yours...
You can 'believe' anyone you want Pumpkin, or you can get the facts; I was on the RO Mod team before it went commercial -- Woopie-Doo; but you don't have to believe anything, ask someone at TripWire. Get the facts, or be a religious twit, either way -- your approval and beliefs make no difference.

ok this was my last post in this topic, since arguing on the internet is like special olympis ...
Yes and from those last four undecipherable sentence fragments attempts at paragraphs or what ever they were -- you won the prize!

:)
 
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