Specimen modifications

[Darek Scalsyn]

Hi everybody!

Well lets start with some bug and problem with the specimen:

Clot: Havent seen anything, its ok but the clot grobbing is almost as bugged as the healing stuff in this game. It should grab immediately as you enter its melee range. It would make a clot a bit more useful enemy.

Bloat: This is an acid creature and very ugly. However I think players (especially medics) shouldnt have any higher resistance against its acid damage. Now I would make another two modification: 1 - I would make the "puke" attack a higher area of effect. 2 - Its death should make a longer range acid explosion (even 2x longer). With these modifications player would stay away from Bloat more than they do it now (especially the death effect).

Gorefast: This one is almost perfect, for now I wouldnt change anything.

Stalker: I have been thinking about this one for a while now but somehow I dont know what would I change about it. Its fast enough, the invisiblity is good enough and have fair damage. Maybe I would give her a backstab ability that would mean she cause 2x damag from behind... donno.

Crawler: Well they are good enough, I mean they have enough as threat as the siren have. So the are ok.

Siren: They surely mean a high amount or threat for the players. Good range damage and area of effect with only-health damage. They are slow but have enough health to close their enemies.

Scrake: I think everybody knows the huge bug with the Scrake. After a melle damage they counterattack and if you are close enough they freeze. This must be repaired. However its health should be lowered and increase its damage a bit. They have a charge "time" after they reach the 30% of their health. I would change it 50% or 40% maybe.

Fleshpound: Now this one is very nasty but has a very (too) weak point. Its head. With a simple knife you can cut his head down. Now this should be changed. I like the idea that he has a weak point because its very strong and has brutal damage. But kill it with a knife is too.. stupid. So make it harder this way: cut his head down only with chainsaw, handcannon, crossbow and hunters rife possible and decrease the chance of headloss. While its red it resist against headloss. Head damage make it faster red.

Now, I would make some modifications about spawning to make it more random to make some unexpected situations because now I know every spawning groups in the game. Make it more random give a chance to the speciment to come in horde or more Fp than one and so on..

 

[Griever]

Hi Darek!

My opinions and suggestions:

Clot: I agree. These needs to have more threat.

Bloat: I agree. Bigger 'exploding' acid range. And there is a bug that sometimes even if u are just next to it, I mean you touch it and the bloat explodes into a shower of acid, you won't get acided. Idk how it happens but sometimes nothing just happens.

Gorefast: ... Head hitbox must be fixed.... Seriously, I shoot with any weapon to the head (any point, forehead, eye, chin, nose, whatever) and the gorefast just wiggles or falls without head popping.

Stalker: I agree, and maybe somekind of trick that they try to do the backstab, go around the player and hit from behind doing 2x dmg or something.

Crawler: Hmm. I agree. They already are one of the reasons people die, they already come from funny places and are hard to spot in dark maps cuz they are small and dark black coloured, and annoying, great enemy I say.

Siren: I agree. Slow, but still the most reason people die.

Scrake: ... I agree. Remove the stupid 'stun' or 'freeze' or whatever. The animation is stupid he just stands there looking around while people are whacking with a knife to the world end. Decrease hp and increase more dmg. Also I'd rather see him doin the swing on attacks faster. Even the heaviest support with the heaviest gun in hand can avoid them just by moving.

Fleshpound...: This thing has made a huge debate already.

It's not that hard, if you really would communicate with your team how to take them down, without using lame 1-hit-k0 tricks.
I'd say that the 1-hit-k0 trick wouldn't work when he has yellow light on, and when the red light is(rage state), then the head would pop off if you use HC/bullpup, but pls, no knife or 9mm...
That's because even on hard with full health, if you fail you won't die to his swing, just run away, heal and try again. That's why it should only be weak by the 1-hit-h0 trick when hes on red light.
Or make him rage if you fail LOL.
With these features Fleshpounds would be higher risk to do the lame trick. At the moment, I can do it everytime on hard and suicidal, even if I fail, I just run away heal and could try again.

My suggestion shortly: Make Fleshpounds able to have weak 1-hit-k0 spot when he's on red light(rage state), and only be able to cut head off with HC/bullpup/Xbow, but not with knife or 9mm pistol.

Or a random suggestion that when Fleshpounds are on yellow light and you fail cutting head, they would instant rage.

OR, just remove the damn weak spot for good lol.

Thx for reading.

 

[Dr. Pibb]

I agree with the fleshpound head thing. But, I think they should give the Fleshpound a weakspot in his back which deals extra damage when shot. This would encourage some offensive movements towards the fleshpound i think.

 

[omarfw]

My suggestion shortly: Make Fleshpounds able to have weak 1-hit-k0 spot when he's on red light(rage state), and only be able to cut head off with HC/bullpup/Xbow, but not with knife or 9mm pistol.

Or a random suggestion that when Fleshpounds are on yellow light and you fail cutting head, they would instant rage.

OR, just remove the damn weak spot for good lol.

Thx for reading.

/support

 

[Darek Scalsyn]

" Gorefast: ... Head hitbox must be fixed.... Seriously, I shoot with any weapon to the head (any point, forehead, eye, chin, nose, whatever) and the gorefast just wiggles or falls without head popping. "

Now I think you have made some mistakes when you tried to get his head down. I have done it many times with all kind of weapon. The most easiest with bullpup and 9mm, but I have done it with rifle and crossbow. However there is some weapon that isnt good for headloss: handcannon (high recoil but from close range its still good) and shotguns. All in all I think get the gorefast head down isnt hard at all but you must be in a good range and with a good weapon.

Anyway thats true that the gorefast has some interresting resistance like surviving 2 granades etc. - but its easily killable by his head with small guns.

Scalsyn

 

[Griever]

My point was, it can be headshotted with any weapon, but many times with straight headshot nothing just happens, gorefast just wiggles like I just poked it with my finger. I headshot clots, bloats, sirens and stalkers almost everytime, but for some weeeird reason gorefast sometimes just wiggles with 100% headshot and/or just falls without head loss.

 

[Electrocuuute]

Hey Darek, why don't you try playing on Suicidal?

The specimens seem faster (both in movement speed and reaction time).
That alone should solve your clot problem.
As for the Bloat, the harder the difficulty the farther it's puke range is. I'm sure the same goes for the explosion range.

The Scrakes are just fine in my eyes, except for the stun bug. They're meant to be a tank enemy. They don't do a lot of damage, but they draw your attention enough so that other specimens have a better chance at getting at you.

As for the Stalker, I think a backstab would be a plausible ability, but come on, she's already invisible and her attack brings up an animation on your screen.

I agree with the FP though, it's ridiculous that you can just take his head off like he was a clot or gorefast. He's suppose to be the most deadly specimen, only bested by the Patriarch.

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

To help the Scrake, I think it would be appropriate if he could use his chainsaw melee attack while walking/running, just like how the Fleshpound can use his mallet arms while moving. Even if the Scrake's freezing bug was fixed and his run threshold was increased, he'd still be a pretty pathetic enemy as any player who simply backpedals away from him will never once get hit since the Scrake always comes to a complete halt and stands still when using his melee attack. This is never a problem for enraged Fleshpounds chasing their prey since Fleshpounds can melee attack while moving. The Scrake is weaker both in health and in the damage he can inflict, so I believe such a change would sufficiently improve his threat level. Scrakes are relatively uncommon and high level enemies, so I don't see any reason why they should not be a considerable force to be reckoned with.

 

[Darek Scalsyn]

To help the Scrake, I think it would be appropriate if he could use his chainsaw melee attack while walking/running, just like how the Fleshpound can use his mallet arms while moving. Even if the Scrake's freezing bug was fixed and his run threshold was increased, he'd still be a pretty pathetic enemy as any player who simply backpedals away from him will never once get hit since the Scrake always comes to a complete halt and stands still when using his melee attack. This is never a problem for enraged Fleshpounds chasing their prey since Fleshpounds can melee attack while moving. The Scrake is weaker both in health and in the damage he can inflict, so I believe such a change would sufficiently improve his threat level. Scrakes are relatively uncommon and high level enemies, so I don't see any reason why they should not be a considerable force to be reckoned with.

I think you arent right. Boosting a the Scrake figthning style would make the game too hard at the later waves. Just think about it: there isnt only scrakes on the map, there can be a lot of crawler, sirens or gorefast that can close you while you are backpedal the scrake (from behind for example) and then you wull be hit by the scrake. So thats right that the scrake alone (or in group) isnt a high threat but with other speciment scrakes good enough. Just see how many playes dies by speciments:

1. Fleshpond (at the end waves)
2. Siren
3. Crawler
4. Gorefast
5. Scrake (even with the bug its in the fifth place)

 

[omarfw]

i've never been killed by a scrake. i've been killed by everything else including clots. but not a scrake. ever.

doesn't that say something?

 

[Murphy]

Scrakes were brutal in the mod! Didn't hurt balance at all.
If they were meant as mere meatshields that distract you from other specimen - why do they have a chainsaw?

In the mod, if a Scrake got too close to you he grabbed you and chainsawed you to death and there was nothing you could do about except hope someone with a double barreled shotgun was around to help you take it down before you are dead!
Now the Scrake can't hit you as long as you keep moving!? Don't you see anything wrong with that?

Same with the Gorefasts, btw. As long as you keep backpedaling none of their attacks will hit you. This needs to be changed.

Very good suggestions, btw.

 

[Bacillus]

Perhaps the Bloat may be replaced by something else? Something similar to the Clot in the sense that it can grab a player & then spews acid. Maybe even go so far as to make the Bloat a little smaller, leaner, & faster?

For the Scrake, why not have it "rage" like the Fleshpund?

Speaking of which, for the Fleshpound, why not have the creature immune to fatal headshots & it only takes damage when shot in the lit tube (front & back)? Every time it is damaged, have it "rage". Players take advantage of being able to shoot twice to the head/body, wait a short period, & repeat until the Fleshpound expires. It can be frustrating for other players who may have "died" to wait for a prolonged period (especially when 1 player is left against multiple Fleshpounds). When it does "rage", it may be directed towards the player that was responsible for the damage triggering the Fleshpound's attack.

On a slightly different tack, the game would benefit from the specimens (as a whole) having a greater degree of AI &/or co-ordination. I have seen instances of players moving in a large circle or elipse around a structure, with up to 120 specimens following in a line. Perhaps if the specimens are able to cut-off routes of egress & eventually "fence in" a player?

 

[Griever]

Indeed. I've never seen Scrake killing anyone, except AFKers.

 

[Nanostrike]

Scrakes were brutal in the mod! Didn't hurt balance at all.
If they were meant as mere meatshields that distract you from other specimen - why do they have a chainsaw?

In the mod, if a Scrake got too close to you he grabbed you and chainsawed you to death and there was nothing you could do about except hope someone with a double barreled shotgun was around to help you take it down before you are dead!
Now the Scrake can't hit you as long as you keep moving!? Don't you see anything wrong with that?

Same with the Gorefasts, btw. As long as you keep backpedaling none of their attacks will hit you. This needs to be changed.

Very good suggestions, btw.

No one seems to remember the lethal beasts that were the Mod Skrakes! Imagine...a Skrake, only it grabs you like a Clot. Once grabbed, it constantly hits you with it's chainsaw attack until either it dies or you die (Or, in some occasions, was knocked back by a powerful blast like the Hunting Shotgun). They were DEADLY. If you were hit by one, that was usually it unless your team could save you! They were a priority target, and rightly so!

Now they're big, slow morons who can be stunned and knifed to death. They're usually saved for dead-last on the target priority list. It's a sad state of affairs to say the least...

As for the 'Attack on the move' stuff...I'll say it again: If you make Gorefasts and Skrakes able to hit players moving at full speed, the game will be impossible to win. Their attacks simply do too much damage to not be balanced out by the "stopping" to attack. A Gorefast can kill an unarmored player in about 3 seconds on Hard!

Remember how Crawlers can hit you running at full speed? Annoying, isn't it? Imagine Gorefasts and Skrakes being able to do that! They run as fast or faster than players on Hard and up, so they'd get in range quickly and be able to constantly hit you and cut you down within seconds, even as you ran. It'd be like having a constantly-raged fleshpound down your throat. Seriously! Them being able to attack on the move with their current damage and their current status as common enemies would break the game.

That list of players dying to certain specimens changes quite a bit on Hard/Suicidal with skilled players. I'd say it's more like this:

1. Siren (Sick damage, known to attack in groups, and an impossible-to-dodge, armor-piercing attack...deadly!)
2. Crawler (Simply because of their ability to hit players moving at full-speed!)
3. Gorefast (They do HUGE damage on Hard and up and almost always attack in groups, usually with clots to grab you. If you get cornered and mauled by more than two of them at once, or grabbed by a clot and mauled, it's usually fatal! VERY underestimated foe on Hard and up!)
4. Fleshpound (Usually only if you don't see it coming or if someone rages it!)
5. Bloat (Yes, bloat. Folks underestimate how sickly big the puke damage gets on Hard and up if you're not a medic/zerker!)

 

[Darek Scalsyn]

I think the Scrakes was made for grabbing and sawing too but it isnt working somehow. After he hit you (just before the freeze) and you are in melee range he took his chainsaw into you and hold it for some sec then he stop.
It seems for me that it was removed from the game.
Anyway you are right not many player die by Scrakes but in 30 men servers the statistic is different.

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

The Scrake's supposedly "deadly" damage is utterly pointless if he is entirely incapable of ever, ever, ever, ever landing a single blow on the player. It doesn't require any special techniques to avoid his attack. You don't need a medic's or berserker's speed bonus, even if the Scrake is in his charging mode. Simply move in the opposite direction and he'll never once be able to touch you.

I wouldn't expect many Scrakes to get kills while in their walking state. However, when they do start charging, why shouldn't they be a high priority threat that require a team's full cooperation to take down? You're making them out to be just as dangerous as Fleshpounds, but Scrakes have less health, a weaker melee attack, and don't begin to charge unless they've already been damaged considerably. Basically, if they could attack while moving, Scrakes would still only be a real danger once they're on their very last legs, and even then they're not going to be instantly fatal like a raged (or non-raged, for that matter) Fleshpound. Why shouldn't the Scrake have such merit? He deserves a little dignity, even if it happens to be during the last few moments of his life.

If you still think the Scrake would be too overpowered if he could attack while moving, then I would suggest lowering his health threshold for charging a bit as well. I believe it's currently at 35% of his starting health. Lower it to 20% or some such and a strong breeze will practically be able to take him out at that point.

 

[Janshi]

I would've once agreed with you. Then I started playing Hard, exclusively.

Try it out. EVERYTHING changes. The Gorefast, in Normal a slight, if painful, hindrance, is a death machine in Hard. The top killers in hard? Crawler and Gorefast. Oh yea, you'll see the Siren and Fleshpound deaths, but Crawler and Gorefast come up the most. You get trapped for even a second and unless you are quick on the trigger you are a dead puppy. As it is now, the only way you even manage to survive most of the time is because the Gorefast DOES stop to swing. If he didn't, there's no way you could win a match. There isn't enough ammo to BODILY take down a Gorefast (remember, even headless they swing - something that a lot of people tend to forget) AND handle the rest of the horde. Everything takes godly amounts of damage in Hard.

The changes I would recommend:

1) Gorefast hitbox. Most important thing. The thing is that it is inconsistent. I regularly headshot Gorefasts with my 9mm and bullpup (single and burst shots), but when it comes to the Winchester or crossbow, it's more likely to stun them for a second. This is ironic, especially with the xbow's scope. The hitbox is inconsistent and needs to be done right. there is nothing more annoying than having a perfect head shot and watching it fail....and then having someone else take the kill. I mean, what. the. ****.

2) Preferably a change in Stalker AI. A lot of times they just seem to charge you - which would be fantastic for a Commando on his own, but more likely just gets them a faceful of lead courtesy of a shotgun. Right now there's no justification for the Commando to have the Stalker requirement and its just so damn easy to kill them if they just charge you. Even in hard they have a tendency to walk up to your face as you bemusingly watch on. Could their AI be changed to emphasize a sneak attack? They do it when a player's back is to them, but I think they should ALWAYS be looking for the sneak attack. Levels which show this sorta well are West London and Manor, from the top of the bridge and the ramshackle wooden dock-house respectively. Make this part of their AI rather than just level design.

 

[Griever]

It would be cool if the Scrake really crabs and hold you till hes dead or knocked back with hunting shotgun or such, so you really need team mates to help you.

 

[Electrocuuute]

If they were meant as mere meatshields that distract you from other specimen - why do they have a chainsaw?

Same with the Gorefasts, btw. As long as you keep backpedaling none of their attacks will hit you. This needs to be changed.

It's something to help keep you from staying in one spot and on your toes. If you stay in one spot, they have enough health to get to you and start to do some damage unless you focus on them as a team.

Scrakes are like slower Gorefasts that run fast when they have low health.
And if you think about it, you can backpedal and "dodge" every specimen's attack (Patriarch and Siren not included).

 

[omarfw]

It would be cool if the Scrake really crabs and hold you till hes dead or knocked back with hunting shotgun or such, so you really need team mates to help you.

it would definitely put an end to rambo players who go off by themselves.