when players will stop being lazy asses?

[Evilsod]

Evilsod, I love how you insist that it's not a reward, but then go on to say that if you work your way to level 5, you are granted abilities that give you an advantage in the game. I don't know about you, but where I come from, that's called a reward.

Like hell its a reward. A reward would be something external to gameplay, attaining lvl 5 is reaching your full potential with the perk, your not rewarded for ANYTHING. Anything below level 5 on a perk is not at full strength, thats the way i see it and thats the way it is.

The idea of keeping people playing the game is hardly exclusive to MMORPGs. In a multiplayer game, if you don't find a way to keep your userbase interested in the game, they will move on to the next best thing. Whether you accomplish that through new content additions, or allowing users to create their own content, or, god forbid, a persistent levelling system that rewards grinding, the overall goal is to maintain and expand your userbase.

I don't think you can look at the success of the Battlefield series, or CoD4, or even Diablo 2, all of which feature similar systems, and tell me that it deters people.

This is an FPS. If they have to stoop to grind to keep people playing they've done something wrong. Lets go into CoD4 shall we. Sure you had to attain level 55 to unlock everything... but that could be done with ease and the majority of the weapons i deemed good were already unlocked at lvl1 anyway. The 'unlocks' were 100% aesthetic, a different colour of gun? Sure you can say its stealth related but really, no.

You were NOT at half power when you entered the game at lvl1. The level 1-55 progression could easily be done while you were getting use to the online multiplayer aspect and at any rate, alot of the most useful Perks, along with alot of the good weapons, were already available for use.

Diablo 2 isn't remotely similar to this. That was pretty much how the game worked. You can't compare it to this and say therefore grind is valid.

Stinglock, get a clue. If these perk levels were completely aesthetic your e-peen whine would be accurate. But they aren't aesthetic, gaining over double damage with your Crossbow headshots is far from aesthetic. Your perk reaches its maximum power with these little stars at the side of it, so if your gonna whine about something do it about the right thing.

 

[SunKing]

This is the sad state of gaming these days.

Kids can't play a game anymore unless they are chasing unlocks, achievements,trophies, or win/loss ratios to brag.

Remember the days playing a game because you enjoyed it?

That's why I love RO, they got it right, you work together towards objectives.

No silly win/loss ratio in RO so kids can thump their chests in forums bragging and drolling over each others stats.

 

[vatek]

Really? How about playing the game 'the way it was developed to be played' or the way it was 'designed to be played'. After all, you do know the basics of a design process and that it usually includes some actual vision of how the game is to be played don't you?

Please, don't patronize me. I'm well aware that the developers no doubt have a vision of how they want the game to be played but the beauty of video games is that players make their own experiences. There are plenty of games that are being played today in ways the developer probably never even thought was possible. Does that mean that the game is being played "the wrong way"? No.

I'm glad TWI isn't allowing threads containing lists of farming servers, because that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's nothing but a crusade against people who are playing the game in a way that's perceived to be the wrong way by a portion of the playerbase.

Like hell its a reward. A reward would be something external to gameplay, attaining lvl 5 is reaching your full potential with the perk, your not rewarded for ANYTHING. Anything below level 5 on a perk is not at full strength, thats the way i see it and thats the way it is.

I understand that you have your own personal definition of what constitutes a reward in a video game, but just because that's the way you see it doesn't mean that's how it is for everyone. You seem like a highly opinionated person but please, stop talking down to other posters in this thread and trying to force your own opinions as fact.

This is an FPS. If they have to stoop to grind to keep people playing they've done something wrong. Lets go into CoD4 shall we. Sure you had to attain level 55 to unlock everything... but that could be done with ease and the majority of the weapons i deemed good were already unlocked at lvl1 anyway. The 'unlocks' were 100% aesthetic, a different colour of gun? Sure you can say its stealth related but really, no.

You were NOT at half power when you entered the game at lvl1. The level 1-55 progression could easily be done while you were getting use to the online multiplayer aspect and at any rate, alot of the most useful Perks, along with alot of the good weapons, were already available for use.

IMO, you were at half strength at level 1 in CoD4. No custom classes so you were stuck with the terrible pre-made choices, missing at least half the perks, missing 75% of the available weapons. Let's not forget the challenges you had to grind out to get accessories like red dots and silencers, and having those accessories definitely gave you an edge against players that didn't have them.

There's no question that levelling in CoD4 doesn't take anywhere near as much time as the KF grind. I completely agree with you that the requirements for level 5 perks in this game are too extreme, although field medic feels about right. 3.5 million damage, 5500 headshots, 6000 stalker kills all feel very excessive to me, and tbh they should probably be cut in half. But I don't think handing everyone level 5 bonuses as soon as they start playing the game is the way to go.

 

[thrash242]

This is the sad state of gaming these days.

Kids can't play a game anymore unless they are chasing unlocks, achievements,trophies, or win/loss ratios to brag.

Remember the days playing a game because you enjoyed it?

That's why I love RO, they got it right, you work together towards objectives.

No silly win/loss ratio in RO so kids can thump their chests in forums bragging and drolling over each others stats.

100% agree. I've been playing games for over 20 years and most of that time there haven't been achievements or unlocks--just gameplay. If the gameplay is fun, the game is fun, if not, it's not. I don't play games to unlock virtual rewards or increase numbers. This is why traditional MMOs bore me to tears--the gameplay quickly gets boring and then all that's left is grinding for stuff and various types of points/levels in order to feel superior to others or powerful. I find single-player RPGs much more immersive and more fun, so I don't mind having to level up and the like, since it happens just by playing normally through the game.

I don't mind perk levels, since by just playing the game normally with your favorite playstyle, you'll get at least one of them to level 5 eventually and be equal to everyone else who has it at 5. I don't see playing the game normally as "grind". "Grind" is doing things that aren't fun in order to get stuff that you think will let you have fun. The game is perfectly fun with level 0 perks--it's more challenging, but I find challenge fun.

 

[Evilsod]

I understand that you have your own personal definition of what constitutes a reward in a video game, but just because that's the way you see it doesn't mean that's how it is for everyone. You seem like a highly opinionated person but please, stop talking down to other posters in this thread and trying to force your own opinions as fact.

So your perfectly happy to accept that you start the game with a crap perk level and will only reach max potential way way WAY after you've become experienced with how the game works? Alot of the problem is that you only start with a weapon for your perk if its level 5, frankly thats idiotic and provides a HUGE advantage over level 4, especially on Suicidal. 3.5mil damage is beyond 'rewarding you', its just plain grind.

IMO, you were at half strength at level 1 in CoD4. No custom classes so you were stuck with the terrible pre-made choices, missing at least half the perks, missing 75% of the available weapons. Let's not forget the challenges you had to grind out to get accessories like red dots and silencers, and having those accessories definitely gave you an edge against players that didn't have them.

Good point, i'd forgotten about the useless pre-made classes... but they only lasted a few levels and truth be told, they let you get a feel for the game before letting you make your own, but i can see them being a major pita if you had to start from 1 again. I might've been a bit optimistic about level 1 having all the decent guns, but looking at a list now pretty much every gun i used was unlocked by level 10 and the only late game perk i tended to use was Bandolier at lvl32.

But those other weapon upgrades didn't stop you killing in the same way not starting with a gun at all does. 25 kills for Silencer, 75 for RDSight, 150 for ACOG, that doesn't even seem like grind, you can unlock Silencer in a single game and i maybe even 75 in a longer match.

There's no question that levelling in CoD4 doesn't take anywhere near as much time as the KF grind. I completely agree with you that the requirements for level 5 perks in this game are too extreme, although field medic feels about right. 3.5 million damage, 5500 headshots, 6000 stalker kills all feel very excessive to me, and tbh they should probably be cut in half. But I don't think handing everyone level 5 bonuses as soon as they start playing the game is the way to go.

Well they picked the wrong of 2 extremes. Either you give everyone the perk at its full strength and have the 'medals' being completely aesthetic/e-peen related or you make it so achieving max level doesn't take a stupid length of time. They did it completely wrong, the perks become much more powerful at higher levels reaching an all time max at lvl5 when they give you a free weapon AND it takes forever to reach it.

I refuse to believe they were thought through properly purely because of Commando. The gun is weak as hell and has the same damage requirement as the Shotgun and Flamethrower, not only that but an insane clause that requires you to kill lots of 1 type of enemy that don't appear that much.

@SunKing, sorry to rain on your parade but playing a game to unlock a very meaningless achievement and to gain 50% extra damage, 100% extra range, 100% resistance to Fire, Incendiary Grenades AND starting with a Flamethrower aren't even in the same league. If people were farming these levels to gain a nice badge next to there name and nothing else you would have a point, but as this badge is directly related to how effective you are in game you have no point at all.

 

[manhunt0r]

just found a fun and kosher way to grind zerker - hard+gorefastmut+knife||axe+4 random nubs providing you with enough cannonfodder. add very loud music and a buddy you trust to run around the map with you and its all perfect.
altough im not sure it could even be considered grind, since its waaay to much fun.

 

[Nanostrike]

So your perfectly happy to accept that you start the game with a crap perk level and will only reach max potential way way WAY after you've become experienced with how the game works? Alot of the problem is that you only start with a weapon for your perk if its level 5, frankly thats idiotic and provides a HUGE advantage over level 4, especially on Suicidal. 3.5mil damage is beyond 'rewarding you', its just plain grind.
ame perk i tended to use was Bandolier at lvl32.

I refuse to believe they were thought through properly purely because of Commando. The gun is weak as hell and has the same damage requirement as the Shotgun and Flamethrower, not only that but an insane clause that requires you to kill lots of 1 type of enemy that don't appear that much.

Absolutely true. All of it. The worst part with the Commando is that it requires the most work (Huge damage with a low-damage weapon AND 4,000 kills with said weapon of a semi-rare enemy) for the fewest actual benefits...

And even with the other weapons, the damage requirement in and of itself is outrageous. 1.5 million for level 4. Okay, that's doable. But 3.5 million for level 5? That's another 2 million! Does anyone realize that YOU COULD REACH LEVEL 4 ONE AND A HALF TIMES BEFORE REACHING LEVEL 5! Yes, it is a grind. You get to Level 4, which takes a good amount of time, then realize that it's going to take at least that long to reach level 5...

If you don't 'grind' by being more or less married to a specific weapon (Or specific enemy for Commando), it will take forever to achieve the required damage. And I don't know about the everyone else, but if I'm stuck using a freaking Flamethrower for hours upon hours to try and rack up the damage, I get bored. And boredom is pretty much the essence of grinding...

Fix the grind somehow and most of the 'Leveling' maps will fall out of use...but if it's still the way it is, they'll definitely stay. Most of the players using those maps figure that spending a few hours using a weapon to rack up the damage and then being done with it, able to go on and play the game normally as whatever class they want is much better than having to play level after level for weeks/months with the same weapon just to get the same effect...

 

[vatek]

Well they picked the wrong of 2 extremes. Either you give everyone the perk at its full strength and have the 'medals' being completely aesthetic/e-peen related or you make it so achieving max level doesn't take a stupid length of time. They did it completely wrong, the perks become much more powerful at higher levels reaching an all time max at lvl5 when they give you a free weapon AND it takes forever to reach it.

I refuse to believe they were thought through properly purely because of Commando. The gun is weak as hell and has the same damage requirement as the Shotgun and Flamethrower, not only that but an insane clause that requires you to kill lots of 1 type of enemy that don't appear that much.

I completely agree with you here, although I would rather have the second option than the first. The perk system is part of what makes the game so appealing to me, but the pacing of the later levels definitely needs work.

 

[Evilsod]

-snip-

I think you misunderstood the perks

Its 3.5mil TOTAL for lvl5 Perks along with 4000 Stalkers, 250k welding, 25k healing and 5500 headshots. Which is still FAR too much to not be considered grind.

 

[Tolil]

I agree, commando requirements are outrageous. I disagree with this total crusade to murder everyone who tries to grind, however. And on the topic of "perks r ghey they r not kool CoD4 is different diablo 2 is different" ...Sure, I love a game with good gameplay, but achievements/levels/etc. add another level to that. I can play a game just for the fun of it, but they can also add a goal on top of that. It's part of the fun, I have something to strive for, to give me a reason to actually play instead of dicking around half the time. Diablo 2 and other RPGs/MMORPGs give you incentive to play towards that next level, and is part of the reason why people play them so much. It's a challenge, and the reward at the end of the tunnel is like a carrot-on-a-stick.

And please, stop with the "Well I'm so awesome so my opinion is fact, beech." attitude. "thats the way i see it and thats the way it is."

 

[Nanostrike]

I think you misunderstood the perks

Its 3.5mil TOTAL for lvl5 Perks along with 4000 Stalkers, 250k welding, 25k healing and 5500 headshots. Which is still FAR too much to not be considered grind.

I mistyped the numbers, yeah, but the point still stands; it's an insane amount of time. At least when you're getting up to, say, level 4...there are 4 advancements during that time you're dealing your 1.5 mil damage (Level 1,2,3, and finally 4). You actually feel like you're growing and making progress. Then you have to put in another solid 2 mil damage without any advancement or, really, anything to show for it until you get the full amount...grind at it's finest...

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

This is the sad state of gaming these days.

Kids can't play a game anymore unless they are chasing unlocks, achievements,trophies, or win/loss ratios to brag.

Remember the days playing a game because you enjoyed it?

That's why I love RO, they got it right, you work together towards objectives.

No silly win/loss ratio in RO so kids can thump their chests in forums bragging and drolling over each others stats.

I agree almost 100%. I can't complain that players want to use perks, personally I don't like them at all and I have pretty much ignored them in KF other than choosing a "class", I still think 2 is the highest level I achieved in any perk. I imagine part of this discussion wouldn't even be necessary if everyone was at least attempting to play as and support the team. Unfortunately we can't force everyone to play the game as we individually see it.

This is also a reason that I hope ROHOS does NOT have any perks associated with it.