The State of Balance in Killing Floor

[Hedon]

Oh really? Perhaps your opinion isn't worth noting....

Why on earth should things be balanced? Because it is a game and the big companies like to put balance in their games so it appeals to the kiddie masses? If things are/seem unbalanced, it adds variety to the game and makes the differences between classes seem all that more unique and worth experimenting between. Is that reason enough or should I go into more details?

Things should be balanced because imbalance does not create variety, it hinders it. By creating imbalance, you narrow the field down to Superior and Inferior. Sure, you could choose inferiority, but why would you? You're a fool to do so. "Worth Expirimenting between"? You contradict yourself by stating you're all for imbalance. If one is superior and one is inferior, there is no reason to expiriment with inferiority. No, that's not reason enough, so do explain more.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Why do "major" imbalances, in your opinion of course, take away from the game (bugs that need to be fixed aside of course)? I don't feel the balances are major, as I am sure many other players agree with me. Then I am sure there are players that agree with you. These are opinions (again, any bugs aside).

As I see it, it doesn't take away from the game. You will not change my opinion, I apparently will not change yours. I am sorry if the fact that I posted my opinion somehow messes up your posts and opinions. All posts in a thread do not have to agree you know

 

[Nanostrike]

Everything but the Supporter (and Zerker obviously) have ammo problems. At lvl5 isn't it possible to hold dual 9mm or Handcannon, Shotgun and Hunting Shotgun? You've got the big guns to clear corridors and take down stronger foes. You've got the smaller weapons to conserve ammo. You've got twice the number of grenades and they do more damage. You've got more ammo on top of this. Support =/= primary damage dealer, but apparently it does, fact is he's so much better at it than classes that have no utility what-so-ever. That is, Sharpshooter and Firebug.

Why does the Commando not get the buffs to grenades? Why does the Firebug (and Commando) not get slower ammo consumption/more ammo?

Supporter has more extremely beneficial buffs than several other classes combined.

I know what a forum is without morons like you posting veiled insults at me. Your first 2 posts completely contradicted themselves so don't try and talk down to me when you can't even get it right yourself.

That was pretty much my point as well. On harder modes, the support can carry all the good guns, has more ammo and does more damage. The other classes will run out of ammo due to a combination of no ammo bonuses and low damage against the stronger enemies...

 

[Soulie]

I would suggest that each class get extra ammo for their specialty guns (obviously this can't apply to medic or berserker).

 

[FingerFactor]

Im going to avoid making another thread, and just post a few simple ideas here.
*note*: I play commando and zerker (both lvl 3).

Medic: idk, haven't played as medic. From what I hear they seem pretty balanced.
Sharpshooter: same as above, sub sharpshooter in for medic
Berserker: I enjoy playing this class, but I find that on hard/suicidal, crawlers become your doom very quickly. Possibly give the melee weapons a cone-based aoe, this would allow for a little spread damage, and reduce the tragedy which is the crawler death.
Commando: I play this class the most. They are very effective at taking out smaller mobs, but they feel useless against the bigger ones (although the designers may have wanted it this way.) I think the leveling is pretty steady, if im really paying attention I can get 80+ stalker kills in a normal/medium game. A good balance tweak I would suggest for this class tho, would be to give us bonuses on the dual 9mm's. Show both this class and those weapons some love TWI!
Support I tried this class to lvl 2, but even then im finding that the class is way too powerful. Playing with supports when im a commando or zerker generally makes me feel useless. I think the best way to balance the class would be to: fix the dual handcannons bug, remove the grenade bonus, remove the ammo bonus, and let them use the welder as a deadly melee weapon that scales with perk level.

Hope you like these suggestions, I'm sure if the support was toned down a bit everyone else would stop complaining about how weak they feel in comparison

 

[Oi!Oi!Oi!]

Commando: I play this class the most. They are very effective at taking out smaller mobs, but they feel useless against the bigger ones (although the designers may have wanted it this way.) I think the leveling is pretty steady, if im really paying attention I can get 80+ stalker kills in a normal/medium game.

How the hell? I'm lucky if I get more than 4 stalkers in one wave. They seem to attack in pack of 3-4, but unless you are lucky enough for them to come after you, it's hard to kill any.

 

[Phantomspiker]

How the hell? I'm lucky if I get more than 4 stalkers in one wave. They seem to attack in pack of 3-4, but unless you are lucky enough for them to come after you, it's hard to kill any.

Yeah that is what I am wondering, do 80 even spawn in a game? Hell even if I am the first to see them I usually have to contend with support specialists clearing all 3-4 of them out with one shot.

 

[Evilsod]

Ah i see its the sort of forum where the mods ignore things are blatantly insulting comments and delete entire posts when only fraction of the thing contains an insult when we all know they posess the ability to edit...

How the hell do you get 80+ stalkers in normal/medium game. Assuming not a single Stalker is killed by an ally (never gonna happen) theres not even close to half that. They normally get gunned down by accident when they attack with mobs. Easiest place i've found for them is at the top of the cellar on Manor where they usually attack from dock thing with the Crawlers, and even then you barely get any.

 

[Aev]

Yeah that is what I am wondering, do 80 even spawn in a game? Hell even if I am the first to see them I usually have to contend with support specialists clearing all 3-4 of them out with one shot.

Play suicidal and from wave 3 onwards you get rushed by a ****load, good places are roof of offices and on the steel grating top floor of biolabs

 

[SM411]

Reduce the weight of hunting shotgun by one KG and commander will be more ballanced with support.

 

[XeNo]

So basically you guys agree with me.


This thread is not screaming 'nerf support' it's screaming BOOST THE OTHER CLASSES.

Honestly, would you guys not rather see large boosts to your classes to get on-par with Support or just nerf support and be done with it.

AS SAID BEFORE, SUPPORT IS BASICALLY ONE OF TWO (Zerker being the other) CLASSES THAT CAN ACTUALLY HANDLE SUICIDAL.

That is the main problem here. Not that they're overpowered, they're only overpowered in Beginner-Normal which is what a very large group of people play. Suicidal is over twice as hard as normal, and Hard is about twice if you ask me considering I can solo Normal with a full server with a berserker for the most part lmao.


Stop saying 'nerf support' if the next thing you'll say is that Support is the only thing that kills stuff in Suicidal. That indicates what you ACTUALLY WANT is boosts to your own perk. Which every person who plays Support does not mind at all. Hell we could lose the grenades to Commando/Firebug and we wouldn't mind, but when you start saying nerf our aoe, nerf our damage, nerf our ammo (Which runs out on Suicidal if you guys ever play Suicidal enough) and so on just so we can be as ****ty as the rest of the classes at playing Suicidal.


I am going to say this to wrap up my post:

I WOULD LOVE to play other classes other than Support, but JUST LIKE HOW 90% OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD HAVE STATED, they are terrible right now to play on Suicidal, where as Support is the only thing Suicidal-capable other than good Berserkers and Medics. I'm sure if the other classes got boosts and Support lost some Weight bonus and Grenade bonuses and grenade went to firebug/commando, among other perk boosts to SS, Commando, Firebug so that they were on-par with Support and could actually be a valuable class to have in Suicidal, people would not complain as much if Support gets nerfed and nothing else happens. (Causing every class to suck at Suicidal, mind you.)

 

[Colt .45 killer]

... i agree mostly, cept for the one part where you said the shotgun was as effective as a rifle, that sir is bull****. ( no nerfing shotgun please! ). Other then that I rather liked the whole thing, you did miss the one bug where the medic syringe is very finicky with giving doses to others ( cant be moving, and even then its finicky sometimes)


Edit: oh ok it seems your not asking for a visit from the friendly nerf brigade, i can stop feeling spite towards you now

EDIT #2: why dont we give all perks extra ammo in their speciality.

Medics get extra 9mm ammo, and their medigun charges to 200 (perhaps 300?).
Sharpshooter gets extra ammo for deagle / Cbow / winchester
Firebug gets extra flamethrower canisters
commando gets extra ammo for bullpup and perhaps some extra grenades?

 

[Aev]

If the other perks get buffed game will get too easy. Other day me as a 5 zerker and a 5 sharpshooter 2manned suicidal manor 10 wave, patriarch and all; both with equal kills and 2 deaths each. People complaining about sharpshooter are either just bad or ignorant, commando is the only class(after leveling to 3 earlier) that could do with some buffs.

And can people stop saying support is the only kill class in suicidal? Sharpshooter can outdo support by 10-30% if played right with both classes at 5, flamebug would be close if kills weren't stolen and berserker(depending on tactics) can also match those.

 

[LemoN]

imo suicidal should remain what the name says: suicidal
with all lvl5 guys hard should be pretty tough ti manage without good teamwork, and suicidal should be hard to survive with good players and verry good teamwork

 

[XeNo]

If the other perks get buffed game will get too easy. Other day me as a 5 zerker and a 5 sharpshooter 2manned suicidal manor 10 wave, patriarch and all; both with equal kills and 2 deaths each. People complaining about sharpshooter are either just bad or ignorant, commando is the only class(after leveling to 3 earlier) that could do with some buffs.

And can people stop saying support is the only kill class in suicidal? Sharpshooter can outdo support by 10-30% if played right with both classes at 5, flamebug would be close if kills weren't stolen and berserker(depending on tactics) can also match those.

I can solo Suicidal as a Support.

Why? Less HP, less mobs per wave. When it's only 1-2 decent people Suicidal isn't that hard. We're still talking 6 people here, where the mobs have more hp and more mobs per wave.

I don't see how Support can't out-do a sharpshooter when all the support has to do is fire two shots to take out a line of upwards of 10 mobs, where sharpshooter fires one at a time with the occasional twofer-threefer, Xbow could use a slight increase in bolts...40 isn't a lot when we're talking like 180 mobs per wave. Could just be me though.


Maybe we should play together sometime, cause all lv5 Sharpshooters that I know come in third or second place playing with me, and I generally have anywhere from 50-100 more kills than them when playing Support. Sharpshooters kill too slow even if one shot kills, they can't keep up with Supports one shot kills a line of 6+.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dumb down SS or any other perk saying Support rapes or anything, I just think the other perks should get some boosts (Not all of the perks, just some that could use them) so that not everyone feels Support/Berserker/SS I guess are the only ones good at Suicidal.

Also guys instead of increase spread/lower range on Shotgun, why not suggest to dumb down the penetration? Really the Penetration boost Support gets is what causes them to kill so many in one shot, at lv5 theres 100% penetration, which means one shot does full damage all the way through the line (As far as I understand), if it was lowered it would mean it does less damage the more mobs it goes through.

 

[Aev]

I'm up for playing with you, hit me up on steam username cloudfantasy174.

But about the crossbow comment thats where alot of people are going wrong. For example on 6man westlondon suicidal we use the police station past wave 4 so we have control over whats in; and with a crossbow and careful aiming he can make the ammo last an entire 200+ wave while maintaining top of near top kills - because its the one thing support doesn't have to do - aim and take time. Every support I see(including when I play cause cba) just spam shotguns into rows of enemies. Even with a 6 player game, support doesn't cause us to go further, it helps, in the same way a good flamebug helps, or a good berserker helps. Support doesn't need a nerf, and others dont particularly need a buff - both would screw balance past the "non balance we have due to support", in the way that we're facing bots. Nerf support and you lose that O**** of taking out fleshpounds/scrakes quick or when everything is piling on you having a support give breathing room. Buff the other classes and watch the game become trivial.

And toward mob number/health, any class can solo suicidal, be it the worst damage dealer medic, or sharpshooter/flamebug. Now when I'm on my server doing suicidal without a password and we get 3 or more supports why do most of them still have trouble going past wave 2 and 3?

 

[JohnMajor]

Things should be balanced because imbalance does not create variety, it hinders it. By creating imbalance, you narrow the field down to Superior and Inferior. Sure, you could choose inferiority, but why would you? You're a fool to do so. "Worth Expirimenting between"? You contradict yourself by stating you're all for imbalance. If one is superior and one is inferior, there is no reason to expiriment with inferiority. No, that's not reason enough, so do explain more.

Why would one play an 'inferior' class, you say?

My answer: The challenge.

I play Sharpshooter because I like to be able to shoot precisely - running in all guns blazing against Scrakes and Fleshpounds isn't my style, I prefer to sit in the back and pick 'em off with well-placed rifle shots to the noggin (Yea, I use the lever action, crossbow is too heavy and lacks ammo compared to it)

There are three things I'd like to see addressed on the Sharpshooter perk:

1. Increased zoom on Rifle/Handcannon in ironsight mode - As it stands, the slight zoom you get on these is pitiful for sniping purposes. Either that or add in a bolt-action sniper rifle (think Counter-Strike's Scout and AWP) with a scope on it.
2. Modify the gun requirement for leveling the perk - allow it to apply to all guns, not just the Rifle/Handcannon/Crossbow. A headshot is a headshot, doesn't matter what gun you get it with, no?
3. Additional ammunition for the Crossbow and Rifle - A few of the posters on this thread have already brought up the Sharpshooter's ammo problems, and I totally agree.

 

[Hedon]

This thread is not screaming 'nerf support' it's screaming BOOST THE OTHER CLASSES.

Uh, no, I'm saying Nerf Support, AND boost Commando and Firebug. If every class was as good as Support, the game would be a joke.

 

[Evilsod]

Technically a Sharpshooter is suppose to be picking his shots though. Not killing everything in sight. Although i would agree with more ammo on the Deagles.

Firebug needs slower ammo consumption. Its not just the fact that all the fire does is cause a little damage before your teammates are forced to kill them anyway, the ammo simply needs to be consumed slower so you can fire for longer between reloads. A short 'lob' of Flame consumes about 2-3 usually and thats barely enough to kill most things on Normal before they reach you, never mind Suicidal.

 

[Hedon]

Why would one play an 'inferior' class, you say?

My answer: The challenge.

I play Sharpshooter because I like to be able to shoot precisely - running in all guns blazing against Scrakes and Fleshpounds isn't my style, I prefer to sit in the back and pick 'em off with well-placed rifle shots to the noggin (Yea, I use the lever action, crossbow is too heavy and lacks ammo compared to it)

There are three things I'd like to see addressed on the Sharpshooter perk:

1. Increased zoom on Rifle/Handcannon in ironsight mode - As it stands, the slight zoom you get on these is pitiful for sniping purposes. Either that or add in a bolt-action sniper rifle (think Counter-Strike's Scout and AWP) with a scope on it.
2. Modify the gun requirement for leveling the perk - allow it to apply to all guns, not just the Rifle/Handcannon/Crossbow. A headshot is a headshot, doesn't matter what gun you get it with, no?
3. Additional ammunition for the Crossbow and Rifle - A few of the posters on this thread have already brought up the Sharpshooter's ammo problems, and I totally agree.

Sharpshooter is hardly a class that has problems with suicidal. If you're going to go for the challenge, go with Commando. I myself have earned both Sharpshooter and Berserker at level 5. Yes, you can play an inferior class for the challenge. When you're detracting from the team by doing so, it becomes an issue.

There's a slight problem with allowing the headshot perk to work with all guns. Bullpup. Other than that, I agree.