Beta Map RO-Kriegstadt Beta 3

[TT33]

At a 110mm value for stock armor, I think it more logical to simply reduce the value.

If you take slope into account its actually 90mm but accorrding to Soviet tests (still trying to find out which ones: although I did find a source from Osprey's T-34 76 ) the armor values were closer to (angle included) 70mm thick on the front (I do not think this counts the overmatching German 75mm rounds). The Panzer IV's F2's 75mm L/43( the shorter long verison before the L/48) for example accorrding to Panzertruppen could penetrate the T-34 at any angle up to 1,200 meters. The more powerful Tiger I's 88mm would usually penetrate through and through the engine not to mention it would also typically knock the turret off the T-34 ("T-34 tips its hat to the Tiger") The Pak43 being more potent should make tooth-picks out of the T-34 (with no chance of deflects) and even the IS-2 at long range.

 

[EvilHobo]

I am less concerned about that than I am with the intended results, which in this case would be the PaK40 being able to penetrate the T-34/85 at any angle on the ranges portrayed in the map. The PaK43 continues to yield a one-hit kill at any angle.

 

[D3terioNation]

Good man!

 

[2fisted]

Love the latest ver EH, very nice how you opened things up & added destuction! I did find an "invisible wall" I will try to post screen shot location asap.

 

[EvilHobo]

Rant mode engage:

My map seems to have attracted something of a Neo-Nazi crowd

I went on and started playing the map earlier today and ended up joining the Allies as they were outnumbered. So we're playing, and as we are advancing this group of say 3-4 guys just kept spouting a bunch of Nazi nonsense, going on about how they were going to win and we would die on "Aryan soil," that we the Allied players were subhuman rapists, and so forth. Of course on the Allied side you had your vehement anti-Nazis going on about sending people to the Gulag, and I don't like seeing this either because I'm not a fan of seeing the Germans grouped together under the "Nazi" banner (you see this a lot on YouTube too, but meh). Suffice to say I became frustrated as the Allied tankers were not performing on par -- as a tip to tankers, shoot where the enemy could be, not just where you see him. I tried to plead with these guys to let me be a tanker so that we could get a win out of it, but that came along late. Suffice to say, I take the tank crew role and a T-34 and ended up massacring the German defense until I was depleted of ammo (this happened a few times). All the while the taunts and racial epithets are being thrown at the Allies, and we start to cap with a minute left and the Germans have 0% reinforcements. Sadly enough, we got to 60% and then ran out of time. Then the Neos really started foaming at the mouth, and this would continue in to the next round as the Allies struggled to get across the Kaschadeplatz (this was again due to the Allied tankers not being aggressive enough with their firing). Of course, when our players told them to try playing Allied, they just scoffed at the idea (typical really). The big asshole decides that he is going to sit in the Pantherturm the entire time, not contributing anything to the team but just waiting for his moment to be a big Aryan hero or something. By the time we get the the Deutsche Bank, surely enough he is in the Turm, but our infantrymen kept managing to hit it with Panzerfausts on the side to destroy it. After that goes, they decide to all fall back to the bridge because I guess they figured that if they could stop the evil Slavs there the first time, it would work out again. Flemingstra

 

[Trendkill]

I play with HUD most of the time so I didn't catch any of this Nazi crap, still a shame to hear it's happening. I wished everyone had stayed for the deciding round... oh well.

One really weird thing happened to me in that game. I'd fired my DP28 at until it was smoldering and couldn't fire any more, so I dropped it, but something strange happened and I could only turn a few inches left or right, and I couldn't see behind me to back out of the room I was in to try and get myself killed so I could respawn. So I joined spectators, then had to join Germans for team balance issues and for some weird reason I spawned with a DP28 and TT33 pistol...

One of my team TKed me there and I still respawned again with the Russian weapons (as well as Russian uniform from my perspective). Wasn't until I actually chose rifleman and respawned that everything was normal.

 

[TT33]

My map seems to have attracted something of a Neo-Nazi crowd

Yes Ive noticed a big decline in the quality of RO players, there are guys shouting insults back and forth on most servers especially the top 50 ones (which is why I avoid them and go instead for the German/European servers which sadly seem to be the only servers that actually run your beautiful map) I was called the f-word (among other insults) many times because I killed some enemy infantry with my tank (admins just ignored this). Anyways these neo-nazi guys are mostly just angry kids - most of them will yell some pro Nazi insults after which they yell "SSpparrta" or we "pawned" you f-word, ect. Its the type of crowd you would see in dods!

decides that he is going to sit in the Pantherturm the entire time

Yes, even I am guilty of this sometimes due to poor inexperienced users whom are killed within minutes of usage (I usually run out of Ap ammo before being dislodged) I think the best course of action is to make the Pantherturm have a specific class to operate it (less idiots trying to TK to operate it or waste time waiting inside it). As for making the T-34 penetrate the front I dont think that is wise idea it would make the defensive postion less well... defendable and there are other solutions such as making the Pantherturm have slower hand-operated traverse (realistic) and be more vulnerable from the sides forcing the Russians to attack from the sides perhaps limiting ammo slightly.

 

[EvilHobo]

I wonder, what can I do to make the map more of a challenge for the Germans?

One of the thoughts I was toying with was having them use weapons with reduced extra magazines/clips to make those long defenses really quite desperate. Something like half of what they normally would, rounded up of course. So instead of 9 K98 clips a person would have 5, or instead of 5 StG44 magazines the player would have 3, and so forth.

Would this be too bad/harsh of a move?

On the other hand, I could always try increasing the German respawn time from 15 to 20 seconds...

Also Trendkill, I think it was probably a server issue. The server we were playing on was chugging a lot, and I saw a Russian tanker spawn with a greatcoat, so who knows.

 

[Deeival]

I say replace riflemen with the HJ class which is solely equipped with twigs to beat Russians.

 

[TT33]

Ammo reduction and longer reinforcements sounds good to me. maybe a bit more cover for Russians when attacking the 3rd objective.

I would say beef up the HE on the russian tanks a bit but I think its okay that more a matter of team work.

 

[Ricky(SCO)]

EH,

Was pleased to see you in map for the first time earlier. I started off in Allies, got disconnected, rejoined as Axis for the second round, got another disconnect and then rejoined Allies again, for the third round. The server was struggling like a nun that goes onto a nudist beach for the first time - spluttering all over the place. I had "blank shots" from every one of my clips a few times too many due to the server having seizures.

In reference to your Nazi comments, yes there was loads of it. While on the Axis side I saw you putting a guy in his place. This same person being the first guy (in two years of RO) I have ever went into the Control panel and muted and ignored all text and speech from. What a royal pain in the *** he was. There were a couple of others that could have had the same but they weren't so persistent.

About your map itself. I played Beta 2 a LOT, and personally think it is the best epic map in RO. During the rest of this little* note you will see my negative opinions on what I have seen of your map so far. Bare in mind I actually like it, and am suggesting the areas where you may consider some changes if you agree with my views.

I like large maps, that give you the sensation that you know you are winning because your team is playing well against another equally good side, and not because they are deficient. In Beta 2 there were a couple of areas that didn't quite work properly.
-Allied side - the Dornburg apartments, which was hellishly frustrating in Beta2 with bad tankers, and the limited access points for the Allied to gain access to the capzone..
-The Moltke Bridge. Again Tankers, but it is the least satisfying bit of your map for infantry as well.

-Axis side - The windows at the Dornburg apartments overlooking the Command Post approach, because you cant get the rifle rested sights at the windows, so the gun always sways, and you cant aim carefully. I found the Axis side overall an enjoyable experience in Beta2.

My impressions of Beta 3 are as follows.
-The Dornburg Apartments are now good for the Allies - Maybe a little too easy? But it could have been a poor axis team yesterday. Those windows that have been opened up along the side, looking at the cap point are maybe too much? Whereas previously in Beta 2, there was limited places for the Allies to lay defensive fire, before running across that open space, there are maybe too much there now? Perhaps a few less open windows?

The Pantherturm area was way too easy last night for Allies. I like that it usually takes 5 - 10 minutes to get through that area in Beta2. Seemed a lot easier last night. Didnt really notice any changes from B2 to B3 that would explain why though.
Deutsche Bank to the Moltke Bridge Approach was rolled up very quickly for the Allies each time. I played as Axis one of the rounds, and just couldnt get into a position that I could do anything about stopping the caps. Perhaps there are too many areas opened up for the Allies to advance? And hence not enough bottlenecks to slow it down? I cant suggest any area, for definite because it was over so quick, I didn't notice any particular change that you had done that may have caused this.

I think the success of your map depends on the epic feel. It has to be a hard slog for both sides over the whole map. It just felt easy last night for Allies as opposed to being due to the skill factor of both sides. As a result the map boiled down to the Moltke bridge which is a huge open area bottleneck. Because we spent 30 minutes there, it is the least enjoyable bit of the map. Especially when there are so many parts of your map that are great to battle over, but Beta 3 doesn't seem to get the flow right so that we could enjoy them.
Beta2 seemed to have the Cap Points in a good flow. Hard to capture - easier to capture - really hard to capture, hardish to capture, Easy, Hard, Easy, Ridiculously Easy and then the monstrosity that is the Moltke Bridge.

Hope this hasn't felt too negative, it is well intended to offer you opinion on your map. I could point out things that you have definately done right! Like moving one of the buildings at the Forward Command Post for Allied Spawn protection from the spawn camping Axis Mg'ers. The destroyed building at the Alt Moabitstrabe - looks and plays great. The easier access to the window on the left so that you dont have to crawl as Allies approach the AltMoabit Hotel. (Didn't like the stairs inside there though as it made it very easy for an Allied MG and rifleman to stop Axis getting into the Hotel cap)

Anyway an excellent map, as I am sure you are aware. To summarise my above, I think you need to keep some of the bottlenecks and not give too many easy routes for advance.

*I knew that it wouldn't be little!

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

a small question: where is the axis spawn located, when the active capzone is the Hotel ? Yesterday , playing as a soviet MGer (switched later as axis Sch

 

[Trendkill]

I think the PaK 40 inside the left building covering the bridge could do with moving, I didn't find it a very convenient position the time I tried using it. Maybe the Russian tanks just knew where to aim without getting in my range though, that our I'm just not very good spotting tanks in the mist. I should point out that when that same PaK 40 is aiming at the bridge pillar directly in front of it the view of the distance becomes black.

There's also a black hole when looking through this hole in the wall, I think this is in the left buildings of the Flemingstrasse Ruins.

 

[EvilHobo]

My impressions of Beta 3 are as follows.
-The Dornburg Apartments are now good for the Allies - Maybe a little too easy? But it could have been a poor axis team yesterday. Those windows that have been opened up along the side, looking at the cap point are maybe too much? Whereas previously in Beta 2, there was limited places for the Allies to lay defensive fire, before running across that open space, there are maybe too much there now? Perhaps a few less open windows?

I don't feel as though it is too easy so much as it is a case of the Axis not knowing how to properly defend the building. Too many players like to set up on the exterior, which is all well and good for killing those attempting to get in to the capzone, but when the Allies finally do make it in, there is virtually no opposition. I may modify the cap zone volume to make for a more interior-intensive battle as opposed to the common approach of Russians getting in on the second floor from the right and then laying in that one room: I personally do not feel as though ownership should be dictated by how many prone people you can stack in to an apartment room.

As for changes to the area, they are rather minute. Yes, the Allies have some windows opened up to let them get across, but this does not cover the area to their immediate right which contains a PaK40 and is also opened up to allow Axis players an elevated view over that approach to the Apartments. However, that position is vulnerable to the tanks, and as such the tank hunters need to be active in calling out and destroying the enemy tanks. For changes to the Russians, I elevated the terrain slightly where the wall is collapsed to allow for them to gain easier entrance as opposed to getting caught on a piece of wall, and on the ground level they are able to walk/run in to the ground floor as opposed to having to prone dive through the windows. Some fluidity has been added to their way in but the capzone itself remains roughly unchanged, but I will look in to revising it.

The Pantherturm area was way too easy last night for Allies. I like that it usually takes 5 - 10 minutes to get through that area in Beta2. Seemed a lot easier last night. Didnt really notice any changes from B2 to B3 that would explain why though.

Not much changed here, no. I opened up a building to the right of the Allies that allows them to move around the Pantherturm, but it is still a wide open area and the Turm could still wipe them out if it wanted to. I think the issue was the Panzerfausts that were readily available to the Allies, and they just chopped away at the Pantherturm's health with those. I am probably going to consider getting stuff to block the Panzerfaust spawns in the locations prior to that by using falling furniture or something to that extent. Still, one of the big design things I had going for that area was for the opening stages while the Pantherturm was still active, a few of the Germans need to hold the buildings on their right which would allow the Allies to get closer to the bank and the Pantherturm, but once the Turm goes down things should become a battle for the interior of the Deutsche Bank (another thing, the objective was changed to start on the second floor due to the ease the Russians had with just setting foot inside the building before).

Deutsche Bank to the Moltke Bridge Approach was rolled up very quickly for the Allies each time. I played as Axis one of the rounds, and just couldnt get into a position that I could do anything about stopping the caps. Perhaps there are too many areas opened up for the Allies to advance? And hence not enough bottlenecks to slow it down? I cant suggest any area, for definite because it was over so quick, I didn't notice any particular change that you had done that may have caused this.

This could be due to either the respective skills of both teams or it could be due to players intentionally falling back on the Axis to get their spot at the AT Guns. One of the measures I think I may implement here is to get a backwards rolling minefield set up to concentrate players in a given area and only allow the Axis to fall back to the next objective as opposed to the end of the map. Hopefully this should get them to fight for the objectives more. Additionally, I think I *might* move the cap back further toward the German end of the street such that it encompasses two buildings instead of three. After all, the Axis rarely ends up in the third building from the end of the street and the Allies just end up pouring in there, but it could create too much of a chokepoint within that second building where an MG likes to set up on the stairs and mow down any Allies entering the building, and the Allies can only get in from the outside by crawling. Maybe blast a hole in the second floor?

I think the success of your map depends on the epic feel. It has to be a hard slog for both sides over the whole map. It just felt easy last night for Allies as opposed to being due to the skill factor of both sides. As a result the map boiled down to the Moltke bridge which is a huge open area bottleneck. Because we spent 30 minutes there, it is the least enjoyable bit of the map. Especially when there are so many parts of your map that are great to battle over, but Beta 3 doesn't seem to get the flow right so that we could enjoy them.

I wish there was something I could do here without ruining that area but it doesn't seem like it. However, it might be worth noting to some Allied players that an MG set up in the top floor of the Packhof can see and shoot over the central German barricade, the one they use to get in the the Alsen Viertel on the left. Furthermore, I am really considering upping the German reinforcement interval to 20 seconds, as it seems that in a lot of cases the Allies are almost capping but then the next German spawn wave arrives and starts chucking nades everywhere. Avoiding these is as easy as just getting off one's lazy *** and advancing further in to the objective, but a lot of players fail to realize this.

(Didn't like the stairs inside there though as it made it very easy for an Allied MG and rifleman to stop Axis getting into the Hotel cap)

I'm littering the Alt-Moabit Stra

 

[Sidus Preclarum]

To Sidus:
Yes, a bit of the Axis spawn extends out in to the Allied LOS, this has been corrected for Beta 4, and as aforementioned, the street will see a lot more rubble to give the Germans a better chance of getting in to the building.

great, thanks.

 

[18Bravo]

Rant mode engage:

My map seems to have attracted something of a Neo-Nazi crowd

I went on and started playing the map earlier today and ended up joining the Allies as they were outnumbered. So we're playing, and as we are advancing this group of say 3-4 guys just kept spouting a bunch of Nazi nonsense, going on about how they were going to win and we would die on "Aryan soil," that we the Allied players were subhuman rapists, and so forth. Of course on the Allied side you had your vehement anti-Nazis going on about sending people to the Gulag, and I don't like seeing this either because I'm not a fan of seeing the Germans grouped together under the "Nazi" banner (you see this a lot on YouTube too, but meh). Suffice to say I became frustrated as the Allied tankers were not performing on par -- as a tip to tankers, shoot where the enemy could be, not just where you see him. I tried to plead with these guys to let me be a tanker so that we could get a win out of it, but that came along late. Suffice to say, I take the tank crew role and a T-34 and ended up massacring the German defense until I was depleted of ammo (this happened a few times). All the while the taunts and racial epithets are being thrown at the Allies, and we start to cap with a minute left and the Germans have 0% reinforcements. Sadly enough, we got to 60% and then ran out of time. Then the Neos really started foaming at the mouth, and this would continue in to the next round as the Allies struggled to get across the Kaschadeplatz (this was again due to the Allied tankers not being aggressive enough with their firing). Of course, when our players told them to try playing Allied, they just scoffed at the idea (typical really). The big asshole decides that he is going to sit in the Pantherturm the entire time, not contributing anything to the team but just waiting for his moment to be a big Aryan hero or something. By the time we get the the Deutsche Bank, surely enough he is in the Turm, but our infantrymen kept managing to hit it with Panzerfausts on the side to destroy it. After that goes, they decide to all fall back to the bridge because I guess they figured that if they could stop the evil Slavs there the first time, it would work out again. Flemingstra

 

[Wee-Bey]

One of the measures I think I may implement here is to get a backwards rolling minefield set up to concentrate players in a given area and only allow the Axis to fall back to the next objective as opposed to the end of the map. Hopefully this should get them to fight for the objectives more.

Not played enuff Beta 3 to really be chucking in my opinion. But i will... perhaps leave this option as a last resort. Cuz even on Beta 1 an 2, if the battle has been too costly for the axis, falling back to your most easy to defend objective left (Bridge) SHOULD be a viable tactic. Say you got half an hour left and only around 15% of your reinfs, surely it makes sense? Dunno, perhaps give the mine field like a 2/3 capzone cussion???

Some of my finest memories on this map are as an axis player, where youve had a tough fight but half of your team cant get enough of pissing your reserves up the wall, so with like 10 minutes left you're as good as out of reinfs. You and a good few of your team-mates dus it back to the bridge and wait for the big red machine to come steamin thru. them boys who kept hollerin NO RETREAT when someone called it and charged head strong into a tank have long died an taken your reserves with them. but you wait... tension builds as the hotel falls. then you just gotta survive and take out anyone trying to jump the cap... thats an awesome part of the map init???

 

[Hamburgerphil]

Not played enuff Beta 3 to really be chucking in my opinion. But i will... perhaps leave this option as a last resort. Cuz even on Beta 1 an 2, if the battle has been too costly for the axis, falling back to your most easy to defend objective left (Bridge) SHOULD be a viable tactic. Say you got half an hour left and only around 15% of your reinfs, surely it makes sense? Dunno, perhaps give the mine field like a 2/3 capzone cussion???

Some of my finest memories on this map are as an axis player, where youve had a tough fight but half of your team cant get enough of pissing your reserves up the wall, so with like 10 minutes left you're as good as out of reinfs. You and a good few of your team-mates dus it back to the bridge and wait for the big red machine to come steamin thru. them boys who kept hollerin NO RETREAT when someone called it and charged head strong into a tank have long died an taken your reserves with them. but you wait... tension builds as the hotel falls. then you just gotta survive and take out anyone trying to jump the cap... thats an awesome part of the map init???

I hate those "No Retreat!" guys with a passion. They're either blind or don't understand the concept of reins/time which is CRUCIAL to this map.

 

[EvilHobo]

I am a proponent of "Some Retreat." I'm not going to say an absolute NO RETREAT, but rather, falling back to prepare defenses in advance, but not falling back across the entire map. This is why I suggested the minefields to prevent falling back. In my opinion, every objective is defensible, its just a matter of how defensible the players choose to make it. I of course come from a background of coordination, so I often take it for granted that someone will be watching a door or entranceway. Still, if the Germans do manage to lock down entrances and make use of interior cover while making the effort to funnel Soviet players in to hallway/doorway killing zones, they can inflict heavy casualties while keeping the capzone in German hands. Most players like to hang out in the windows or the streets: while this is well and good, once the tank hunters have been pushed out and the Soviet tanks are granted free reign of the streets, its time to hunker down and turn the buildings in to fortresses. One of the main reasons I made many objectives require the Allies to get to the second floor is it means that they need to actually advance in to the buildings as opposed to just setting foot within and then going prone while German players on the upper levels are helpless to dislodge the cappers aside from suicide nade rushes.

In other news...
I took it upon myself to reskin the Russian tanks. They now possess the brown-green look of Captain Obvious' ISU-152, along with the proper white identification stripes. Besides, I felt that they were too green anyway.

To address complaints about the DP28 barrel, I duplicated the values for the new MG34. Furthermore, I decreased the rate at which the MG42 heats up (stock: 1.25, mod: 1.1875). The MG Mod is probably going to be finalized as EH-MachineGunMod with the release of Beta 4.

On the Pantherturm, I believe I shall allow the T-34 to penetrate it frontally at distances less than 100m. At the same time however, I will probably remove critical hit points like the ammo box and so forth (considering these would be stored underground). The damage from an AP shell will be set at 200 for the T-34, and Pantherturm health increased to 1000 (from 800), thus meaning that 5 successful frontal penetrations should be able to destroy the Pantherturm. For everyone's reference, HE yields 75 damage per shot from the T34, and 50 from the SU76 (theoretical code values). Therefore, it would take 20 shots with the SU76 to destroy the Panther, or 14 from the T34, and when you factor in that they can usually only get one shot off before being destroyed and it takes 30 seconds to respawn, it adds up.

Either which way, it will probably be an engagement that boils down to skill, with whoever shoots first winning. A shot from the Panther will kill a T34 with one hit should it strike the ammo, however if the user strikes the turret it will take two shots and the T34 will be able to get the AP round out. If the Germans want to keep the Pantherturm alive they will need to keep men in the buildings to their right so as to keep the T34 at bay with Panzerfausts.

I hope these changes are acceptable?

 

[EvilHobo]

Screens of the new tank skins:



I need to do the skins for the destroyed meshes, though.