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Level Design Pavlov's House

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#141
That one boardgame SQUAD LEADER by Avalon Hill which I have mentioned before on other threads, had a scenario called Pavlov's House. You might want to use it as a reference if anyone gets around to making a map of it.


Obviously, I wouldn't copy the Scenario description verbatim word for word or anything like that.

But since this was a historical event, this may give you some ideas for your own RO version of the events.


www.wargameacademy.org/sqla/scenarios/index.html

The 2-3-7 units in SQUAD LEADER were tank / artillery crews of 4 men, and the RO Tank Crew Role would cover those soldiers.

The other units are squads of 10 infantrymen. 4-4-7 would be most likely be riflemen; 6-2-8 units would most likely be PPSH sub-machineguns (they never really specified; nades were considered included in the unit's firepower; the 3 numbers respectively represent firepower, fire range, and finally something called morale which was unique to the game.

I imagine the higher firepower and more limited range had to do with the type of gun being used (which would make sense), as opposed to the men's individual strength and military experience, although that could have been a factor as well).

The individual standing soldiers were the Squad Leaders; the unit with the soldier lying down with the rifle is an individual Sniper.


To read the SQUAD LEADER version of the events, click on the link, then click on the blue Avalon Hill Scenario link, and then a list of Avalon Hill scenarios will appear.

Scroll down, and click on Pavlov's House in, towards the end of the Cross of Iron section of the scenarios in the middle of the page.

You will be able to read the scenario; all you need is Adobe / Acrobat Reader which you can download for free if you do not have.
 
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#142
Someone linked this photo above, but I thought it should be posted so everyone can see it.:D

That's Pavlov's House, and that's Ivan Pavlov.



Hopefully, someone, who's a good mapper, will someday complete this map.



By the way, I started to watch some of the videos at 3dBuzz.com on Unreal Technology that teach mapping, and you learn everything about the structure and design of the game.

Sure, it takes a little time to watch the videos, but think of how much time you spend watching TV or movies or playing video games.

In the thread I started in this RO Level Design section called "Learning to Map: 101," all the information is there for anyone who wants to start to learn mapping, including how to open .rar files and everything else.


Even if you don't plan to become a mapper, you should watch the first two of the Level Design videos, and you'll get a better understanding of how everything in the game is created.
 
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#144
Good advice Gamburd, but you seem to post an awful lot about this Squad Leader game of yours. It often has little to do with the thread topic, and could be seen as a shameless plug were the game still in production.
Click to expand...

No, I wouldn't do that.

I just think people may be interested in how other games have dealt with simulating combat on the Eastern Front, and that they may want to implement similar ideas / concepts in RO.

People on this same thread talked about the Call of Duty video games; it is the same idea.
 
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#145
Just to let you know ShutzeSepp has let me take a look at the map. He really has much of the
buildings in place already which is a plus and a good starting point.I have read through
this thread as I really dont know much about Pavlov's house. So i am learning as I go.
So far I am thinking of this:
2 Panzers with limited spawns maybe 6 each
2PTRD
only Russian with Sniper
3DP-28
3Russian SMG rest Rifles
Havent decided on German loadout.
I would like to limit grenades to other than riflemen on this map so if anyone knows how to
do this on the mapside without a server mutator?

Other Questions:
I need orientation of the buildings it looks like the warehouse and comm trench were south of the house the square was to the North? Where was the Volga? Anyone have pictures between the river and the house?
I am torn with the objectives I am not sure what would be best.
It seems that obj on every floor would be messy and as the Germans attack up floors so would the Russian counterattack blah blah I just dont think it would be good.
My other thought would be to make and objective second to the top floor, with the russians having a temporary spawn in the house. Germans would have to break into the house and cap to win so essentially one cap zone.
The other would be a cap at the LMG position outside the house and one in the basement both not recaptureable. With a third cap in the top or second to top floor which would be 3rd or 4th floor. After capping the LMG position the German infantry spawn would move up to a closer area.
I will let discussion continue on that as I am not to that point.
Some posters on this thread seem to be begining the use of the editor. If some would like to try and make Rubble and building shells for this map I will use them, This would be a great ease into building maps.We can discuss if you like.
Further let me stress I am just looking and will work on what I can no definites on finishing so if someone else is out there wanting to tackle this project then the race is on so to speak, unless you would like to collaborate on it with me. No love lost if you complete something before me just dont name it Pavlovs house if it is not worty of that name. I dont plan to give it that name until final.
 
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#146
I just wanted to add that in reading further I have the orientations down now. From what I have read everyone thinks that the small square building to the front of Pavs house is a communal bath house? Also on the Black and white drawing they have some underground tunnels with some off of the house terminating into a circle so then would that be a fighting position that it was terminated at? Thanks.
 
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#147
Do your research. Get the stairwells set up to allow access up the levels. Knock open the basement walls with holes at least big enough to crawl through if not crouch. You should certainly remake the balcony rails as one easy thing to do. Make the rails static mesh and you could make three or four versions in various states of repair. The roof, I believe should be at least partially intact as well. You could set up holes through it which guys could shoot out. IF you put tanks in here, it should most likely be only one or at most two StuG variants or maybe a PzIV-F and you would want to arrange it so that the main guns could not raise to cover the upper floors, per history... this would mean they approach from angles that they can't get long, high angle shots. Attention to little details would go a long way.

I think the hardest thing is the cap zones. I would work at floor by floor but then you have questions on how to get the Russians back in to the house. A similar set up like I did in TractorWorks with the admin building? Two zones per floor over three or four floors? Or one per floor requiring the possession of the floor directly below and once you cap the top, the top locks out and you fight your way back down?? Just a few ideas.
 
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#148
Yes that is one thing is the stairs all the way up to the attic a partial roof does need to be added. I have no idea how to make the guns of the tanks not go all the way to the top floors, since they will be advancing across the square they really only have the end to shoot at till they make a turn to either side of the building.
I think for tanks i will include the III and the Stug so that will only be 5 armor slots taken up. An AT gun I think will be needed also based on the history.
For the objectives i think that I like your noose idea. First obj will be right out in front in the square this will make the germans attack across the square as they should then there will two side caps on in the house next to Pavs house and one on the opposite side (to be determined, I think there should be an AT position out there if possible). Once those 3 are taken then the only remaining will be 3rd level of the house. with germans spawning on all sides I think this will form the combat quite well. with the final battle being in the house if the Russians are low on reinforcements it should be tooth and nail at the end.
I dont think that multiple floors will work very well because if say the germans have the basement and 1st and 2nd Russians will come in and try to fight off and cap basement while some will go to the top. I just think there will be mass confusion and not a coordinated effort. I dont know for sure though that can be debated it is a ways off anyhow. I am going to start with work on the gasoline building and connect it to Pavlovs. Then finish the mill area. It looks like a rail line goes between the two houses and that the yard of the houses is actually elevated and held back by a retaining wall around the rails can anyone confirm that?
 
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#149
With the tanks, you would have to see how the buildings layout. The Germans could not get their tanks good angles of fire meaning that they could not get far enough away to allow the guns to elevate to hit the top floor/roof. So the tanks need to get close enough to 'see' the building but far enough back to elevate. Not sure the gun elevations are accurate versus the dimension of the play area etc. A PzIII would be overkill, I think but if you read enough or ask for help, you should find the actual tank types used. Too many tanks with the ability to hit the upper floors could seriously unbalance the map. It depends. Random spawning of AT guns would be an asset and probably two ATR roles would go a long way.

I don't know if I would over-cap the map with going to the mill. Enough could be just secure the approach (square) and then take the building, depends on how many cap zones IN the house. A follow-up map could then be based on the push to the mill and the river bank beyond. ;) The house was the vital location for both sides as an artillery spotting position and the Germans could look down on the river bank as I understand it. Capturing the house would have been a huge accomplishment and it shows in the number of casualties endured in the attempts. In this case, think "big" but thinking "small".
 
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#150
From my knowledge about Pavlov's House I wrote almost an essay on how I envisioned the map to be and sent it to Schutze, but now he's not doing it. I basically emphasise that the House itself should be the main if not only objective and it should be very hard for the Germans to take. The Germans would have to advance across the 9th January Square from I believe it was called the 'Milk House' with little cover.
The Russians would be supplied with reinforcements from the Mill via a trench, like it was in real life. Germans would have more reinforcements than the Russians to compensate for how hard Pavlov's House should be to conquer, and it should be very hard, the only enterance in my opinion should be the trench connecting Pavlov's House to Zaboldov's(sp) House.

This would also make a German victory very hard but very satisfying (like when the Russians win on Kriegstadt). The book Stalingrad: How the Red Army Triumphed gives you a a map of the fortified buildings in and around 9th January Square as well as good information on it's defence.

I could send my whole idea to whoever is doing the map now if they want my input... ;)
 
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#151
This map you have would be good to see if you need to email it to me that would be great just pm me or post a link any maps would be great. I am looking into the map now I have started on adding some stuff. like the attic in pavlov and some floors to the Zaboldov's house I assume it still had most of its floors also. I need to hear more about the trench between the two the aftermath pics here seem to be more of a retaining wall made trench with a break at the street this is what I will be attempting. I also need more speculation as to what is out east of pavlovs house.
@ slyk I understand what you mean about making the tanks too close to the building but I just dont really see how to accomplish that yet. the square is quite long and it needs to be to make it difficult to assault I think. If a PzIII is overkill please give me a better suggestion. But that will still be a while.
 
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#152
PzIV-F short barrel. Or none at all?

Trendkill has some good points. Lots of accurate photos/maps are out there, just Google for them. If you played COD:UO, the "Pavlov" level has a good representation of the Mill/trench/Pavlov configuration. Not saying it was accurately laid out, but the idea is there.

As Trendkill notes, I would do it the same way but probably give the German 3:2 odds in reinforcements. The Russians have the high ground, probably a shorter run to reinforce, and historically, the Germans threw a ton more men into this fight than the Russians had or could.
 
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#153
everything that i have looked up and found has been great but the more the better. I have gone to all of the links posted in this thread. It is not so much looking at the maps it is deciphering them which some have done a good job here I just need to determine what they have not. I was thinking the short barrel as well I am kind of thinking just one tank now but still to be determined. I remember CODs layout and so I am loosely basing it off of that I think it was quite a bit more compact though. I think this map could use some more skins as well maybe like the white Rus Snow uniforms only color them a brown or something. More when i get more.
 
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#154
I have been looking at the Stalingrad.net diagram posted on page 1 how sure are we of its accuracy? I havent read anything about the underground passage out to the LMG post in front(top right). I have read about a tunnel out to the gasoline storage building out front is that correct? Also when they say tunnel do they really mean tunnel or just a deep trench,that is partially covered? Also when youlook at the mill building that is left today with the red brick it doesnt look anything like the mill building in the aerial photo, which looks more like a metal mill building you might find today. So which one is correct.Sepp has an unfinished mill building in the map which you cant see so I was going to just finish that up and put it in place.
 
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#156
Yep but if you go to like google earth you see the old mill because it is left standing. as a monument but that pic from August doesnt look anything like the monument so confusing. Unless maybe it had a metal roof on a red brick building. I have decided to remake the mill out of red brick. Then between the mill and P's house there is a warehouse type building with at least 2 floors you can see it in the wiki photo inthe background. Thanks for your reply Slyk I am just trying to be accurate. Was it truly a grain mill or was it a steel mill or some other kind of mill.
 
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#157
well I have been steadily working on this when I get the time. I have roofs and attics on both buildings but when I look further at the after battle pics that Zobs house should not have a roof or attic floor on it what do you guys think? I would still like for a budding 3d builder to make some trolley car wire poles if they would like. I will post some pics when I can
 
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#160
Slyk said:
"When" in the battle for the house do you want this to be, early, mid, or late? That can guide you in the amount of destruction or at least provide a guideline, because there are no rules, as we learned in "Pirates of the Caribbean".
Click to expand...

I don't know, that scene when Captain Jack Sparrow held off the Nazis from the roof of Pavlov's House with two witticisms and a fancy dress was never found to be accurate by historians. The dress was a kilt, at best.
 
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