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Tactics Defense: Is it a myth?

A camper is somebody that does his job well if he can holds the ground he should hold.

Defence is very usefull, fall back when you are behind and let the enemy come to you. You have the advantage of being coverd, relocate after a few shots and then take a few down and relocate, and so on till out of ammo or you are dead
 
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wait? are you trying to say people are idiots? really?
I thought its hardcore proffesionals I am playing with on public
DingBat, I respect you alot but dont get too many expectations on a public game, we nicknamed a map like Kaukasus on public as "Its raining Russians" because Russians tend to think gravity is an option over there.
Seriously, people are idiots.. i could've told you that when I was already playing Doom and Quake 1 online many many years ago.

P.S.
Idiots or not, Gorlitz is still one of my favourate maps and I still insist there should be a night version of that great map!
 
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many valid points here and a very important discussion,camper....well if your defending there is no such animal....if attacking then your not helping your team,most of the time....unless in the case of a counter attack.
Games are fluid things most of the time....but as Dingbat said there's great satisfaction when you dig in and manage too hold.
There are only a few time's when playing on a Public server,when using onboard VOIP,that a number of Pub's will actually respond.....but it does happen....and great when it does.....but that is the key thing...many seem shy to use the Onboard VOIP,so just try to be inclusive....and if something does'nt go right,be easy have a laugh about it...move on..try again
 
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An intelligent defense will have counterattacks.

Not taking this into consideration is as naive as believing that the only succesful defenses occur inside a Cap zone.

btw, in Staligrad, if the Axis hold Warehouse, no other points can be capped (iirc). therefore, putting up a hell of a fight for it makes sense as a valid defensive tactic.

the key is to ahve the entire team on the same page. If one part of the team is doing one thing, and the other part o the team is doing another, then failure is in the cards.

The question then must be asked: If an intelligent player agrees that the entire team must be on the same page, and the majority of the team is doing what they disagree with, then must they step up and support the team, or kick back and curse them as they try to win?
 
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That depends entirely on the tactical situation. For example: On Stalingrad Kessel, the warehouses have just fallen. The enemy can now capture the north rail yard or the assembly hall. Do you defend the two newly capturable objectives or attack the warehouse?

Personally, I defend the two objectives. The warehouse combat conditions favor the Russians with their PPShs and PPDs. The longer range engagements in the North Railyard and Assembly Hall are more suited to the Germans. Plus, the Russians have to cross open ground to get to both objectives, which can be covered by snipers and MG fire from the admin building. Counterattacking will simply bleed reinforcements. AND you're at a reinforcement disadvantage as the Germans, so wasting them trying to engage the enemy on ground that favors him is just goofy, despite the other tactical advantages it seems to offer. On balance, I find the warehouses to be better to put up a token defense, but not to become preoccupied with. You may hold them for a long while, but it'll cost you in manpower and you'll eventually be overwhelmed.

The same is true on a map like Berezina where most of the recapturable objectives are ones that are difficult to recapture in the first place, and you're already at a reinforcement disadvantage. By contrast, the static defenses are more easily held and force the enemy to cross wide open spaces under your guns.


On the other hand, a map like Kaukasus practically demands counterattack, if only to help run out the clock and slow the enemy. Reinforcements on that map are relatively close, but time and positioning start in the Russians' favor. Maintaining that position is key to winning the map.

Even on maps like Berezina and Gorlitz, there are instances where "counter-attacking" can be useful. Not with the intent to capture a position (since many times the positions can't be recaptured), but simply to delay the enemy and buy time for the main force to dig in. That's not a counter attack, though, it's a delaying action.



Regardless, most players make no such distinctions and are uninterested in the tactical differences. The ones who are the subject matter of this thread are those who think "defense" means "attacking when your side starts with all the objectives." That's not defense, and often it's suicidal and a great way to lose the map. Intelligent counterattack or delaying actions are valuable when done at the right time. The rest of the time they just waste reinforcements.


But, even so, monster, don't think I'm lumping you in with the crowd that I think simply doesn't GET defense. You clearly do, you just have a different tactical opinion of the situation at times. That's fine by me. Reasonable people can agree to disagree, and at least you're actually thinking about the tactics, instead of simply saying "Man...I'm bored. I'm gonna go shoot something". :)
 
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Good points Solo.

Playing well is truly an art form in this game, and the picture can be painted many ways.

I think everyone would agree that the best chance for success is everyone working together.

I try to understand what the team is doing as a whole (or at least 51%), and work to support that.

I do agree with your tactical assesments of Gorlitz and Berezina- I've seen both methods win in Stalingrad.
 
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When in comes to defense, elasticity is always a benefit until you can effectively pin the assaulting team down into designated chokepoints. The problem with most pub play is that players just love to wander off outside of good defensive areas to recapture ground. I'm not saying that recapturing lost territory is not a good thing, but on most maps the costs outweigh the benefits, especially on StalingradKessel.
 
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I'd say the best defense in Kessel focuses on one of the later two points. IMO it depends what your after. The North Railyard can be defended from long range, with the SMGs doing some clearing action, but your troops will be exposed to enemy sniper fire often. The assembly hall only has 4 entrances, one of which (the blast door that goes through the office type area) is a good place to put an smg or two, and then effective covering fire from the roof and from inside the first room in the assembly hall can shut down that place forever.

However, even if you do this defense perfectly, you can expect at least a fourth your team to keep on charging the warehouse (even after its uncappable.) They *will* bleed your reinforcements away. On the one hand, you can send the whole team to the warehouse so everybody is there, and if you are good enough, I have seen this defense instead bleed the Russian reinforcements away. More likely, it will just leave the Germans spread to thin, and they will run out of reinf even earlier.

On most pubs, you can tell if Kessel is a foregone conclussion or not in the first 3-4 minutes by how the German team is acting. If the German team is not playing in a way that will obviously make them lose (maybe 15% of the time) its often easy to tell if the Russian team will then lose (are they doing pointless suicidal attacks or not.) In many respects, this detracts from a great level.

In other maps, it depends on the situation if the defenders want to go static defense, elastic defense, or some kind of offensive oriented action. Delaying actions or counter attacks can be great, but in pubs I would say as a rule don't do them (Kaukases is one noticable exception) Its very easy to get the majority of the team in great static defense positions, but once you start trying other things, you will have some people staying behind in positions that are defended by your (now forward) defenders, and some people going way to far forward and just wasting reinforcements. Its very hard to coordinate, because its hard to tell where people are if they are not talking.

Any talk of tactics on an RO pub that fails to take in the reality of the pub is a bad tactic, no matter how much better it could be. You want to adapt strategies that are possible with little to no communication, players that "just want to shoot people", and by people who don't know anything about tactics. Static defenses are often the easiest, and by getting on VOIP and repeatedly asking for them, its possible to do this. Counter attack in very clearly defined objectives can be possible on some maps (the Tower or Backroute on kaukuses sometimes this will happen.)

Any kind of delaying action on ground that is not readily marked on the map is just asking to divide your team, even if its a great spot to hold, etc. Sometimes it will happen by chance, but not often, and trying to force it will probably hurt you.
 
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Well yeah, you have to take into account how other players play the game, but we were talking more about ideal tactics rather than pub tactics. Even so, the basic concepts still apply on a pub. you just have no guarantee that anyone else will get them (although servers with "regulars" often do have folks who "get it"). ;)

Delaying actions often end up happening anyway simply because the "I just wanna shoot somethin'" players are impatient and end up running out to shoot at stuff. which, effectively, is your delaying force! Ta da! :) What's then required is that you have the presence of mind to fall back since you know they'll eventually be overwhelmed or bypassed.
 
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Next came several recent rounds on StalingradKessel, still one of my favorite maps. I'm not sure how many times I've seen the Germans lose due to running out of reinforcements, but it's a lot. Why does this happen? It seems that most of the time it's due to the Germans continually flinging themselves forward in an attempt to retake the warehouse, long after it's clear that we've got our hands full simply denying the soviets access to the other objectives. I've seen smg gunners run into the warehouse even after the low reinforcements message has been displayed.

We actually did have one round where we eaked out a win where several of us basically harangued the others into defending. We had ambushes set up at both the rail yard and the hall and it actually worked. We came from down over 10% to hold on for the win. Hey, defense works, what a concept.

It might just be mindset. I love nothing better than a tense fight for the last objective, such as at the tower on Odessa or the end of Konigsplatz. I love that. I can get the idea of a battle against not only the enemy, but against time as well. I like those kinds of maps and I'd love to see more of them.

So, why is defense so hard?

I think the problem is that none of the maps where one team is supposed to defend ( stalingrad kessel). Is rarely or never properly desinged for defending. At StalingradK. ive found only TWO place where I can stay defending for a longer period of time ( more than 20 seconds) without being flanked and naded to death.

and the HQ at odessa. The Ruskies always got an advantage there. crist they even got sandbags to make completely covered advances.

So, i could say that defending is not much... practical. Only thing that works in my experience is, simply. Counterattack.



Back to Stalingrad kessel.. Why I enter the warehouse at all costs with my MP41? let me enlighten you. once the Germans loose the Warehouse they loose. thats why.. Quite simply because there is nowhere to put up a proper defense at the other objectives. its not about the players not being willin' to defend, its simply due to map desing.
 
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Back to Stalingrad kessel.. Why I enter the warehouse at all costs with my MP41? let me enlighten you. once the Germans loose the Warehouse they loose. thats why.. Quite simply because there is nowhere to put up a proper defense at the other objectives. its not about the players not being willin' to defend, its simply due to map desing.

First off, you're using an MP41:rolleyes:

Ok, kidding aside, what are you talking about? No where to put up a defense? With an MG42 set up in the Central Admin building, and a few infantry in North rail to pick off the stragglers, you can defend half the map. The rest of the team can then focus on holding the Assembly Hall, which can be tough for the Russians to take as well. At most, you need one MG42 in central Admin, one rifleman feeding him ammo and watching out for snipers, another rifleman or two in the railyard, and an SMG guy or two at the base of the Admin building to get any russians that try to sneak in out of the field of the MG. The rest can focus on Assembly and general harassment.

In fact, germans trying to retake the warehouse are detrimental, because they constantly get in the way of the MG. Most maps that appear "indefensible" aren't anything of the sort. You just have to think for a minute and find decent firing positions.
 
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Back to Stalingrad kessel.. Why I enter the warehouse at all costs with my MP41? let me enlighten you. once the Germans loose the Warehouse they loose. thats why.. Quite simply because there is nowhere to put up a proper defense at the other objectives. its not about the players not being willin' to defend, its simply due to map desing.

I dont think that is true at all Loosing the warehouse is still a winnable situation. To defend you must bolster the Central Office. From there you can cover two doorways in assembly the main way out of the ware house the alley and the approach to North rail. Once you loose the warehouse MGs need to go there. And people should not reenter the warehouse because that is where the russians are spawning now. That is where the meatgrinder occurs and Germans lose their reinforcements fast, Seems like Germans here will try and retake anything available but that is not always the best play you only need one obj to win here you can loose the other 3. I think I have only seen the Germans give the Russians one shutout on this map so if what you say is true the Germans are losing here almost every time they play it.
 
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For me the times where I'm in a static defence are the best, most intense moments of the game, I remember sitting with my MG34 and a few other players on the last cap of pariserplatz, hearing the IS2 come closer and the Soviet infantry throwing grenades as they were about to advance round the corner. After 30 seconds the enemy got within sight and we opened up with everything, I even saw someone shoot off his last round with his MP40 and then start shooting his Luger. Then the enemy infantry and tank charged us, resulting in a frenzied last stand in which I was the last one left. I got killed with one P38 mag left. Good stuff.
 
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Here's something to think about:

Let's use Kessel again shall we. WH has been captured, and there's a defensive team with some of everything and sniper/mg support. There are Russians firing at the defenders by the wall. An SMGer is by the wall to the WH plucking off attackers. He just took down a couple of heedless people, and everything looks clear.

He can help his team get a much much better defensive position by sneaking up through warehouses and taking down the people by the windows. Other long range troops can get better firing positions and the way is clear for people with short-range weapons to get good positions.

The best choice, defensively, is to attack.
 
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Here's something to think about:

Let's use Kessel again shall we. WH has been captured, and there's a defensive team with some of everything and sniper/mg support. There are Russians firing at the defenders by the wall. An SMGer is by the wall to the WH plucking off attackers. He just took down a couple of heedless people, and everything looks clear.

He can help his team get a much much better defensive position by sneaking up through warehouses and taking down the people by the windows. Other long range troops can get better firing positions and the way is clear for people with short-range weapons to get good positions.

The best choice, defensively, is to attack.

This is a one man sneak attack, LOL you have missed the point of this thread. we are talking about a team effort here.
 
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Force density

Force density

It depends largely about player count of server. On average 30 player server it's 15 players on one side playing. True there maybe "reinforcements" as such, but that does not substitue having truely as many men on field because 15 men can point their guns only to 15 directions.
It's whole different beast on 50 player server as there are more peeps eyeballing eachother.

Now let's say there is 2 objects to defend. 3 guys defend and 3 guys attack.

Attackers choose the point of attack and all go there. Defenders are divided between the 2 and let's say they go to object defended by 1 guy only. If he is well positioned then he gets the first shot of and kills the point man. If he has choosen the position well he gots cover advantage against the 2 remaining guys.
However at some point attackers get the odd one out and kill him.

This is why in army everything is done in pairs usually it's called back up! Single man is a liabililty, a pair increase probability of success.

This is what happens when hansgering2 says that germans loose on kessel when they loose WH. They get swarmed. Indeed it's better to remain mobile and counter attack or force choke points like Warehouse(only objective active when controlled by germans)

However as the spawn are about equal distance away from each other and attackers are usually given something like better weaponselection or shorter interwall between spawns a forementioned meatgrinders ensues.


On higher count server things get different as attackers don't have to worry only one variable the time, but body count also due to higher intensity.
Also even if force ration per object is the same 3 to 1 just more troops involved lets say 12 to 4. There is less **** ups for the defender because attackers have less chances on sneaking up on defenders(they go more eyes scanning the horizont)
All the while attackers have increasing difficulty of coordinate their efforts so that all 12 guys hit truely at the same time.


 
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