Armor variances between maps

[short-fuse]

I don't know if this is a known bug or not but, why is the armor on a Panther {if not all the tanks} different between maps? Before the baggering begins, I already know about "angling" and such but, I was on RTR newest map, Debroceen B2(sp), and was knocked out by a T34/85 that was over 900m away. How is that possible? Is the 85MM some type of wonder weapon and why is it that the 75L70 built like a pea shooter? On that same map, I witnessed a T34/85 get pummeled by no more than 15 shots before it exploded but I get hit once in the front mantlet and the panther goes up in flames?

Is this due to the MOD of the map doing this? Or, is there a specific batch of armor codes that RO is manditory for all maps? Yeah I know, look at the "NOOB" with the dismal postings but, what gives? If anybody in the Tripwire world could shed some light in this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[worluk]

"mod" is short for "modification" no need to spell it all uppercase...

beside the always personal impression of strenght weekness over maps, a map based mutator _might_ be responsible. Or simply not the stock vehicles placed on that map. Never played debrecen so i cant comment if thats the case there...

 

[Helmchen]

Well if you played on the FK #4 Debrecen server you prolly just encountered Armored Beasts for the first time. That mod changes the tanking part a bit.

Nonetheless I have the feeling that the axis tanks benefit more from that mod then the russians, especially the Tiger and Panther got stronger. And the StuG is simple and plain great on Debrecen. At long range - 700-800 meters- somehow the sloped armor advantage seems to vanish and you suddenly get one shots whith the StuG while due the lower hull the enemy still is trying to score the first hit on you.

You might just got hit by a lucky shot and the T-34 had a good angle -angling was weakend though- or it even was a IS 2 as at long range you might mistake it for a T-34/85.

/edit mistakes and stuff

 

[Gunwing]

Well if you played on the FK #4 Debrecen server you prolly just encountered Armored Beasts for the first time. That mod changes the tanking part a bit.

Nonetheless I have the feeling that the axis tanks benefit more from that mod then the russians, especially the Tiger and Panther got stronger. And the StuG is simple and plain great on Debrecen. At long range - 700-800 meters- somehow the sloped armor advantage seems to vanish and you suddenly get one shots whith the StuG while due the lower hull the enemy still is trying to score the first hit on you.

You might just got hit by a lucky shot and the T-34 had a good angle -angling was weakend though- or it even was a IS 2 as at long range you might mistake it for a T-34/85.

/edit mistakes and stuff

I know that mod is trying to make it more realistic but They totaly screwed over the Russians in it. IE the sloped armor of Russian tanks was a huge advantage in the Eastern Front. I have seen videos of German Pack40s in WW2 shooting AT rounds at a T34/76 and have them bounce off 3 times before getting the kill. IE most of the late war german tanks were armed with a gun that was based on the Pack40s/flack88, 88mm, and 40mm barrels/ammo.

 

[lu31605]

Nonetheless I have the feeling that the axis tanks benefit more from that mod then the russians, especially the Tiger and Panther got stronger. And the StuG is simple and plain great on Debrecen. At long range - 700-800 meters- somehow the sloped armor advantage seems to vanish and you suddenly get one shots whith the StuG while due the lower hull the enemy still is trying to score the first hit on you.

One of our guys in the unit, can kill an angled IS2 with a StuG from 1000 meters in 2 shots.

(without AB)

EDIT: Forgot to say the range doh!

 

[Peter.Steele]

Well if you played on the FK #4 Debrecen server you prolly just encountered Armored Beasts for the first time. That mod changes the tanking part a bit.

Nonetheless I have the feeling that the axis tanks benefit more from that mod then the russians, especially the Tiger and Panther got stronger. And the StuG is simple and plain great on Debrecen. At long range - 700-800 meters- somehow the sloped armor advantage seems to vanish and you suddenly get one shots whith the StuG while due the lower hull the enemy still is trying to score the first hit on you.

You might just got hit by a lucky shot and the T-34 had a good angle -angling was weakend though- or it even was a IS 2 as at long range you might mistake it for a T-34/85.

/edit mistakes and stuff

At long ranges, the shell is coming in at an angle already due to its trajectory. At short ranges, it's got a much flatter trajectory, so angling is a lot more effective.

 

[short-fuse]

"mod" is short for "modification" no need to spell it all uppercase...

beside the always personal impression of strenght weekness over maps, a map based mutator _might_ be responsible. Or simply not the stock vehicles placed on that map. Never played debrecen so i cant comment if thats the case there...

MOD could either stand for Modification or Moderator.... You mentioned map mutator, what is this mutator basing its information off of?



Gunwing, you do bring up a valid point. I understand that most of the "early war" guns and ammo didn't have the hitting capability as the late war guns do. But, wasn't it possible for the Panther / Tiger able to knock out a Russian AFV at a considerable distance, i.e., 1200m+ ? Plus, most of the large maps do have a "visual distance" limitation built into them, I think...

"Enemy introduced new tank !

Shape roughly similar to 'Tridsatchedverka' (T-34).

Tank is heavily armored, weight is est. 40-50 tons.

Armament is probably 88mm AA gun.

We had losses at combat ranges beyond 2,000m. ..."

Soviet radio message from July 8th of 1943 talking about the Panther tank.

Penetration of Armor Plate at 30 degrees from Vertical. Ammunition:

100m 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m

Panzergranate 39/42 138mm 124mm 111mm 99mm 89mm
Panzergranate 40/42 194mm 174mm 149mm 127mm 106mm


Pzgr.39/42 (APCBC) - Armor Piercing Composite Ballistic Cap
Pzgr.40/42 (APCR) - Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (Tungsten Core)




I guess the balance of power would have the Jerries the capability to see ranges beyond 2000 and the Ruskies have the mobility of their wide treads. Just a thought...


S/F

 

[Elysium]

I know that mod is trying to make it more realistic but They totaly screwed over the Russians in it. IE the sloped armor of Russian tanks was a huge advantage in the Eastern Front. I have seen videos of German Pack40s in WW2 shooting AT rounds at a T34/76 and have them bounce off 3 times before getting the kill. IE most of the late war german tanks were armed with a gun that was based on the Pack40s/flack88, 88mm, and 40mm barrels/ammo.

The slopped armour of the T-34 only worked against early war guns like the 50mm etc.. but proved no chance of stopping the round from a Panther, Panzer IV (Late war versions) and Tiger. The 88mm of the Tiger wasn't effected at all by the 40 degree armour of the T-34 as it went through that armour like knife through butter. They even did tests today to prove how the round from an 88mm easily pierced the armour plate of a T-34.

This video here shows a real tank battle in 41 going on and shows that the german guns(tanks) were too weak and took so many shots to destroy the Russian tanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUi-UlsQzss&mode=related&search=

 

[Kipper]

Even with Armored Beasts...the T34/85 shouldn't be able to get through the frontal armor of the Panther's mantlet if I recall. Are you sure of the range? Ranges are misleading in game. At 500m or less the T34/85 can nail you from head on.

 

[Oldih]

I guess the balance of power would have the Jerries the capability to see ranges beyond 2000 and the Ruskies have the mobility of their wide treads. Just a thought...

Well sure Soviets could answer German armors (in general) at less than 1000m quite well.

This video here shows a real tank battle in 41 going on and shows that the german guns(tanks) were too weak and took so many shots to destroy the Russian tanks

Aye, but I don't know was it for Germany's advatange, that they had bit more modernized doctrines, gearing, (general) eguipment and such in general while Soviets really had problems with more or less stuff.

 

[Keystone]

Please check armor of Panther and compare his front turret and front hull !!! With Armored Beasts T34/85 can penetrate Panther from front only by shooting his turret. Check penetration test of 85mm gun here. http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/soviet_guns7.html

In Armored Beasts wasn't set anything to give some kinds advantages to axis or allies side. All penetration and armor values are set to real.

Read first that whole log
http://www.red.orchestra.pl/page.php?al=ArmoredBeasts

 

[short-fuse]

Who can kill who:

When facing the Panther, fire at the turret. Can be defeated from T-34/85 at closer (500m or less) ranges, especially with lucky hit. Bull crap. Tell that to the mutator. I was knocked out @ 900m or more. But it may fail too with unlucky hit... The front hull of the Panther can be defeated only by IS-2 from closer ranges (<600m). Another false statement. Who are these people tring to kid. Everyone with a computer and a search engine can debunk this whole set-up. The side can be defeated even by T-34/76.

When facing the Tiger (or Panther) - you can kill it from IS-2 at almost any range in game. From T-34/85 - aim the hull, you have chances up to 900m with 0deg shot. The turret is too thick. Angled Tiger can be impossible to kill from T-34/85, maneuver to get 0deg shot or to get it from the side. The side of the Tiger can be defeated from up to... 2000m :-O from T-34/85 - this has to be checked, and up to 200m currently from T-34/76 (that would be late war ammo I guess).

When you are fighting in the IS-2 - take the long reload time into consideration ! Find a target from the cover, estimate the range, set the sight, uncover, aim well, shoot once and backup to cover for reloading. You can kill almost anyone - if you hit. This was real life tactic of good IS-2 commanders, they used it with good results. Also remember that you have only 10 AP shots, so consider using HE against less armored targets (like PzIV front or Panther side).

When facing IS-2 - aim for the turret rather than hull. And aim close to the gun, if you hit it too far to the left or right it will ricochet. You have fair chances up to 500m in PzIVH, but better be closer. Much better chances in a Tiger or Panther. But from long ranges even those two will ricochet if not hitting the center of the turret.
The IS-2 front hull can be defeated from 400m (Tiger) or 700m (Panther). Wrong!!! What about the muzzle velocity of the 75mm L/70?? Was that taken in to consideration? 925 m/s

Against T-34/85 - aim where you want, ( Yeah right. I will believe that when I finally see it in this sim but I am not holding my breath)but when aiming turret - again hit it close to the gun, in other case it will ricochet most likely.

If facing T-34/76 with PzIII - aim for the turret and close to the gun, the front hull is out of your range.
The front turret can be penetrated up to 600m from PzIII using AP ammo. The front hull can't be penetrated (or maybe with 10% chance from under 20m). Of course you can penetrate T-34s front hull with APCR ammo currently, when you should not, it's too much sloped for APCR. (HELLO!! That is why you aim for the drivers hatch. It is the weakest link in the frontal armor)This will be corrected in the future with better penetration formulas.

When facing T-34/76 with PzIVF1 - fire at turret front from <200m or the turret rear. You can't kill it from the side currently as lower hull armor is not modeled yet. Gee, and they admit it here, it's not modeled... Humm, do you think they are purposely holding something back?

When facing KV-1 with PzIII - use APCR ammo and aim well. If you meet one being in PzIVF1 - retreat or surrender. (Another false statement from the most recent upgrade. I have seen the F1 knock out plenty of KV1s at a distance)

T-34/76 or Su-76 against:

PzIVF1 or F2 - front can be penetrated up to 1200m.
PzIVH - aim for the turret - up to 1200m. The hull - up to 150-200m.
Stug-III/F8 - front hull can be penetrated up to 150m (sometimes 200m).
PzIIIL - front hull up to 500m, front turret up to 800m




Man, with soo many discrepancies with this sim, TW definitely needs some help.

 

[Keystone]

Excuse me but what is wrong?






And about that facing KV1 with a PzIV F1, that log was from old version. Now F1 has HEAT ammo which can penetrate KV1.

That T34/85 couldn't kill you from front this is just impossible. Maybe you just angled your panther too much and he hit side, and side of Panther can be easily penetrated beacuse side of Panther is very weak, so angling Panther isn't useful so much, the best is with angling Tiger and IS2.

 

[short-fuse]

No, I was facing the t34 straight on and he hit me with 2 shots and I went up like a roman candle. The T34 was angled and I blasted right at the base of his turret and nothing happened. The German 7.5 cm L/70 and the 8.8 cm are definitely undermodeled in this sim. I just hope the next version corrected this or I just wait patiently for the Tiger vs T34 http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2271308&page=0#Post2271308

 

[Keystone]

That 75mm L/70 and 88mm are completely right, whatever you say. Maybe you would play first more instead of criticizing when you don't know absolutely nothing about AB.

The T34 was angled and I blasted right at the base of his turret and nothing happened.

There isn't like always tank is destroyed by 1 shot. He was lucky that he survive penetration, it's happening sometimes.

The German 7.5 cm L/70 and the 8.8 cm are definitely undermodeled in this sim.

What a twaddle. One time on Debrecen I was staying in my Panther near Farm. I took out so many russian armor that I wasted my all AP shells. I had to shoot by HE then...

And I'm repeating again that he absoutely couldn't kill you from front at this distance. Maybe just someone other shot you from side, it's very often happening to me. I'm sure that something is wrong with that what you noticed beacuse just check on this screenshot, it's impossible to penetrate on over 500m.
http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22028_1_122_688lo.JPG

Armored Beasts is absolutely fine but unfortunetly there are people who are feeling somethings wrong, beacuse they are basing on some unrealistic tanking from other games or just from stock RO and are unnecessarily criticizing T34 beacuse is too weak. But now we got another rebel which is criticizing T34 beacuse is too invincible, so I don't know what is going on with these people, what you want. Don't waste our time and go back to that great realistic stock RO tanking where angling your tank is 90% of success.

 

[Oldih]

That T34/85 couldn't kill you from front this is just impossible. Maybe you just angled your panther too much and he hit side, and side of Panther can be easily penetrated beacuse side of Panther is very weak, so angling Panther isn't useful so much, the best is with angling Tiger and IS2.

Now if track damage would be added even to logical levels, we might actually see some logical tanking than just angling and angling after another angling

No offense really, but in AB even though angling is reduced, or the affectivnes, it still doesn't give the fact angling is NOT useful thing to do unless at long ranges or that you can cover your tracks.

 

[Keystone]

Ofcourse is still useful as it was in real. But angling with AB gives some chances mainly to Tiger and IS2 only. Beacuse their sides is quite a bit strong. T34, PzIV, PzIII and others can be easily destroyed when are angled so it's fine. But those heavy tanks still are not so invincible on angle like in stock RO. It just need to shoot their turret so this is big advantage of AB beacuse everybody has some chances to kill everybody.

 

[Oldih]

Ofcourse is still useful as it was in real. But angling with AB gives some chances mainly to Tiger and IS2 only. Beacuse their sides is quite a bit strong. T34, PzIV, PzIII and other can be easily destroyed when are angled so it's fine.

What I mean, is that if you want to have this so-called realism I recommend that the odds of destroying tank tracks should be increased to very very common level. Since one well shot AP shell can detrack tank and one HE even nearby might do that. Since sure, angling is effective, but if they notice you early on and they have time to fire they usually might aim for the tracks and make very very fast getaway (if possible, depending on a tank)

And besides, if tank is detracked (especially in late war) it's like screaming "I am a global target please shoot me.", especially if the detracked tank is a very dangerous foe (Panther E.G.)

 

[short-fuse]

That 75mm L/70 and 88mm are completely right, whatever you say. Maybe you would play first more instead of criticizing when you don't know absolutely nothing about AB.

There isn't like always tank is destroyed by 1 shot. He was lucky that he survive penetration, it's happening sometimes.


What a twaddle. One time on Debrecen I was staying in my Panther near Farm. I took out so many russian armor that I wasted my all AP shells. I had to shoot by HE then...

And I'm repeating again that he absoutely couldn't kill you from front at this distance. Maybe just someone other shot you from side, it's very often happening to me. I'm sure that something is wrong with that what you noticed beacuse just check on this screenshot, it's impossible to penetrate on over 500m.
http://img150.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22028_1_122_688lo.JPG

Armored Beasts is absolutely fine but unfortunetly there are people who are feeling somethings wrong, beacuse they are basing on some unrealistic tanking from other games or just from stock RO and are unnecessarily criticizing T34 beacuse is too weak. But now we got another rebel which is criticizing T34 beacuse is too invincible, so I don't know what is going on with these people, what you want. Don't waste our time and go back to that great realistic stock RO tanking where angling your tank is 90% of success.

Twaddle huh,
To talk foolishly; prate. So you speak as if you have some intelligence then. DILLIGAF smart guy. What the hell are you talking about? You think I am basing this game on Hollyweirds version of WW2? Sir, don't insult my intelligence. Were you there when I witnessed 12 shots on a T34? NO then don't insult me. There were 3 other tanks that were taking shots at this T34, 2 Pz IV and a Stug, and one of us got the lucky shot in. By your theory, the story of Michael Wittman is just fiction then, huh. Or any other information about the capabilities of the German guns of WW2. Why don't you go to the nearest Veterans home and ask those fine men who went up against these 2 beasts and put their lives on the line, and survived. Most of them didn't and I Salute those who died to give me this freedom. God bless those wonderfull men and women who are the "Greatest generation that ever lived"

Hey Keystone, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution! And those immages of the target range don't jive what is happening in the game because the armor varies between servers. That shot generator is nice but sometimes not that accurate. THAT is the whole purpose of this thread is. To let the community that there is not a "set" standard across the board. Now you have wasted my time and BTW, the last time I looked it's still a free world and posting this gives me the opportunity to voice my opinion. IF you have a problem with that, go cry to one of the moderators.

 

[merder]

And those immages of the target range don't jive what is happening in the game because the armor varies between servers. That shot generator is nice but sometimes not that accurate. THAT is the whole purpose of this thread is. To let the community that there is not a "set" standard across the board.

What the hell? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Can you bring actual numbers to back up that statement, or are we just going off the impression of your injured pride in German tanks? (Pride injured in a computer game I might add)


Armor might vary with the AB mod, but it is highly doubtful that every server sets it's own armor values; that would be absurd.
Also, mind you that all you're doing is whining that a T34 killed you. This was just one weird instance. Until I see a lot of T343 killing a lot Panther at 900m and above with little exception, I won't think we actually have a problem and won't attach any kind of weight to your claims.