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Level Design Preview: Smoke rounds for Tanks

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#21
Just curious, hows the performance hit when this is really used?

(I mean.. if eveyrone starts poping off smoke everywhere, that's alot of overdraw.. so I'm wondering how bad it does or does not effect gameplay).. the work around of course would be to limit smoke shells (as you already have) and ot limit the number of tanks on the field with smoke options.

I think Ideally (we we've discussed this many times inside the MareNostrum team), you'd want to not use the existing smoke grenade effect, but rather update the emitter to have it be alittle more wider dispursement.. maybe code in some drift (just a small lateral x or y movement of the emitted particles) or something too..

When we tested some smoke options a while back, I remember it looking pretty artificial.. you had these domes'o'smoke that were concentrated and isolated on the field.. and they didn't really serve much purpose on the scale of a tank battle (except to blind/confuse the enemy if you dump one on his tank.. which in itself isn't a bad idea.. :] )

OMG, MN earily alpha test leak!!!!!!
smokescreen.jpg
 
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#24
Ideally, it is going to be up to the mapper to be smart. The scenario should drive the concept and use of tanks with the capability. Personally, I think one tank per map would be plenty in most CA scenarios. In a large, tank-centric map, perhaps two. The round capacity should be lowered though to three. It would not be a lot different than squad leaders who continue to spawn-chuck smoke-die-spawn-repeat all round long. SLs for the most part would not get within range of tanks to do the smoke throwing and again, in ideal scenarios, the smoke should be covering at fairly long range. I was kicking around a special skin for the smoke-capable tanks. Any ideas or historical references? My cheap idea is a white ring on a barrel or turret or some other quick eye candy to ID the vehicle in a group of similar models. "Elnya" will use the StuG-III B, dropping the PzIV-F. I expect Teufel will offer a PzIV-F factory though since it was a support tank.

As for later-war variants...that's the question. Anyone with some insight?
I don't think every tank should have the capacity, if for no other reason than the code hassles. Early-war tanks are easy as there were direct infantry support vehicles. I would suggest that we stick to the StuG class and create a variant for current stock model. That way mappers can drop in one or two per map along with standard StuGs.

Teufel can address the smoke emitter/size etc. as we talked about that about half an hour before Drax posted. There are lots of options, it comes down to what is the most efficient all around.

I still nag about getting portable mortars with smoke or HE capability. I expect that at least CC is working on smoke for their mortars. That would be a huge asset to mappers. In the meantime, keep posting your thoughts and questions. It will certainly contribute to the process.
 
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#25
Remember people complained that smoke nades would be spammed when we first heard of its introduction to the game. Now you'd be lucky to see a commander even throwing one into the combat zone... :rolleyes:

I think peeps would see it as an unwanted burden firing off their smoke nades, when they have an enemy tank in their sites & an AP round in their breech!!
 
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#26
The difference being, if it's implemented well, the support tanks would be just that. Commonly a PzIV-F can't take down a KV or T34 series tank, one on one in the vast majority of confrontations, not without help. So you would actually be putting those tanks in their proper role. I agree with you though, some players may be annoyed with no AP rounds, but honestly, how often in a straight up fight would you win out anyway? You may be best served blasting a couple smoke rounds a few yards away from your tank and backing out as fast as possible, hoping random incoming shells miss you. In any situation, players will exploit, work around or just not play in any realistic sort of way most of the time so all you can do is say that you gave them the option or tools and they have to decide how to use them. In the prior example, the Russian player would probably just charge you through the smoke and blast you for 10 yards away. :)
 
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#30
UncleDrax said:
I think Ideally (we we've discussed this many times inside the MareNostrum team), you'd want to not use the existing smoke grenade effect, but rather update the emitter to have it be alittle more wider dispursement.. maybe code in some drift (just a small lateral x or y movement of the emitted particles) or something too..
Click to expand...

I'm tweaking the emitter now. You're correct, obviously a smoke round on the 75mm or larger sclae is going to produce more smoke than a simple hand grenade. Having seen the amount a 105mm arty shell can produce, gives me a bit of a reference, but then again, that was 50 years later and probably better technology.
 
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#31
DevilDog (Teufelhund) said:
Having seen the amount a 105mm arty shell can produce, gives me a bit of a reference, but then again, that was 50 years later and probably better technology.
Click to expand...

It could go the other way, too, though--perhaps WWII shells could produce more smoke because they didn't care about negative health effects from the chemicals, or maybe there's a tradeoff nowadays between smoke amount and obscuring heat signatures. I have no idea if that's true, but old cars, factories, and black powder guns are pretty smokey!
 
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#34
Britney Federline said:
perhaps WWII shells could produce more smoke because they didn't care about negative health effects from the chemicals, or maybe there's a tradeoff nowadays between smoke amount and obscuring heat signatures. I have no idea if that's true, but old cars, factories, and black powder guns are pretty smokey!
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The most common material used for producing smoke in American shells was white phosperous. And having that flying around the air has cetainly has "negative health effects" ;)
German shells used a mxture of sulphur trioxide and chlorosulfonic acid. Also not good for you :D.
I have no idea what the Russians used for smoke shells, although I remember that someone did post there weren't any (tank) smoke shells produced by the Russians during the war.

I expect smoke shells to produce smoke over a wider area more rapidly than smoke grenades, as different materials were used. German grenades and candles tended to use Berger mixture (carbon tetrachloride/hexachlorethane and zinc), which would "burn" to produce the smoke. The sulphur trioxide mix need to be atomised to produce the smoke, so I imagine the burst charge of the shell would have done that.

Edit: Found description of sulphur trioxide smoke over at "Lone Sentry"
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/german-area-smoke-screen.html
"It has the color of tobacco smoke and is said to be almost odorless and harmless, but irritating to the throat."
 
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#36
Great idea, and seemingly great implementation - as usual for you guys!

One more thing: as you are most probably aware, at least some German Tanks had smoke emitters on the vehicle. any chance to tweak the code so that this could be simulated as well?

Oh, and since this would already mean having implemented a smoke nade on a Tank... it wouldn't be too far a way to the Nahverteidigungswaffe, then, right? After all, it could be more or less a standard nade (or a few ones) mounted on a Tank ;)
 
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#37
I. Kant said:
This proves yet again that things earlier deemed impossible are coming to fruition... I'm really wondering what you'll come up with next!
Click to expand...

I wonder who deemed smoke shells for tanks impossible, because it certainly wasn't TW. It's just not something we wanted bad enough to put on the schedule. Plus there are the ever present FPS concerns, etc. ANYTHING is possible in any engine with enough time, money, and effort. Unfortunately, there aren't any developers with an unlimited supply of those three elements :)
 
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#38
Also from "Lone Sentry" but only deals with Armor Tactics so good reference for the big armor maps but virtually useless for Infantry Support on CA maps! For what its worth (remember this was written during WWII for the troops being deployed overseas) Guys.

SMOKE-SHELL TACTICS USED BY GERMAN TANKS

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As a rule German tanks employed smoke shells to achieve surprise, to conceal a change of direction, and to cover their withdrawal. The shells normally are fired to land about 100 yards in front of an Allied force. There are no reports to indicate that smoke shells are used in range estimation.

In attacking a village, German tanks fire smoke shells to lay a screen around the village in an effort to confuse the defenders as to the direction of the attack. Smoke shells always are used to conceal a change of direction of the attack, the wind permitting. When a German tank company (22 tanks) wishes to change direction, smoke shells are fired only by one platoon. With the fire tanks of the platoon firing three shells each, the total of 15 shells is said to provide enough smoke to cover the movement of the entire company.

If a German tank force knows the exact location of an antitank-gun position, it uses both smoke shells and high-explosive shells. If the force does not know the exact location, only smoke shells are used. When a single tank runs into an antitank position, it likewise fires only smoke shells, usually two or three rounds, to cover its movements.

Smoke shells are fired from the 75-mm guns of the Pz. Kpfw. IV's, and also, it is reported, from 88-mm guns on other armored vehicles. Smoke shells are not fired by the Pz. Kpfw. II or the Pz. Kpfw. III, both of which are equipped to discharge "smoke pots" with a range of approximately 50 yards. These pots are released electrically, and are employed chiefly to permit the tank to escape when caught by antitank fire.
 
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#39
Grottenolm said:
One more thing: as you are most probably aware, at least some German Tanks had smoke emitters on the vehicle. any chance to tweak the code so that this could be simulated as well?
Click to expand...

Recce said:
Also from Lone Sentry, TM-E 30-45 Handbook on German Military Forces, Chapter 8. Chemical Warfare Equipment p://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch8sec6sub4.html

"g. SMOKE GENERATOR PROJECTORS FOR ARMORED VEHICLES. The Pz. Kpfw. III and Pz. Kpfw. VI are provided with smoke generator projectors (dischargers), which are mounted on each side of the turret. They consist of three cylindrical tubes, 6 inches in length by 3.7 inches in diameter, mounted on a bracket one above the other at a fixed elevation of 45 degrees, but slightly splayed to give a lateral spread to the generators. Nb.k.39 smoke generators are fired from inside the turret. Panther and Tiger Model B tanks are fitted with smoke generator dischargers mounted flush in the right rear top of the turret, at an angle of 60 degrees to the turret roof. They are mounted in a circular ring in such a manner that they may be traversed through 360 degrees. The barrel, 7 1/2 inches long by 3 5/8 inches in diameter, is fitted with a breechblock. The firing mechanism is operated by a trigger from within the tank, projecting the Nb.K.39 smoke generators."
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Can anyone else say "smoke spam"?:D
I would love to see that feature, but can you imagine what it would be like if every tank popped it's smoke in spawn at the start of the round?
And I could imagine people using smoke to hide their tank so they could go solo;)
On the downside, I don't believe Russian tanks were fitted, so would add a bit of imbalance.

Grottenolm said:
Oh, and since this would already mean having implemented a smoke nade on a Tank... it wouldn't be too far a way to the Nahverteidigungswaffe, then, right? After all, it could be more or less a standard nade (or a few ones) mounted on a Tank ;)
Click to expand...
Of the in-game tanks, it was only filled to StuGs, and then only the later production Ausf G (info to the contary gladly accepted). If was also fitted to the K
 
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